Talking about socialism rationally

mynameisnobody

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"Socialism" is control.

The different brands of socialism differ somewhat regarding

i. exactly what should be controlled

ii. who should do the controlling

iii. how complete the control should be
 

Industrialsize

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Well, call me intolerant of evil if you will, but at least I can recognize that I am not a "perfect" person and also recognize that people through their own actions, become evil and inhuman.

I'm not going to start debating this. In my mind, evil people can rot. They will all be judged in the end.
But NOT by you
 

Bbucko

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Well, call me intolerant of evil if you will, but at least I can recognize that I am not a "perfect" person and also recognize that people through their own actions, become evil and inhuman.

Now, I'm not going to start debating this. They will all be judged in the end.

I never said you were intolerant, Skippy.

But if you believe in God, then you also know that you have no right to judge the elementary humanity of another. That privilege is reserved for a power greater than you. If Hell awaits, then that's not your call to make.
 

Bbucko

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"Socialism" is control.

The different brands of socialism differ somewhat regarding

i. exactly what should be controlled

ii. who should do the controlling

iii. how complete the control should be

All authority is control; I never knew you were and Anarchist. Join the club.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Well, call me intolerant of evil if you will, but at least I can recognize that I am not a "perfect" person and also recognize that people through their own actions, become evil and inhuman.

The problem is, you are one of the evil ones and you either don't know it or don't even care. You go to great lengths to downplay things that are inherently poisonous to this nation that you engage in, while trying to demonize others for their actions. You don't have to conduct a heinous crime or even have a criminal record in order to be one of the bad guys.
 

Bbucko

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The problem is, you are one of the evil ones and you either don't know it or don't even care. You go to great lengths to downplay things that are inherently poisonous to this nation that you engage in, while trying to demonize others for their actions. You don't have to conduct a heinous crime or even have a criminal record in order to be one of the bad guys.

Dehumanizing does that just fine all by itself.
 

Ericsson1228d

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I never said you were intolerant, Skippy.

But if you believe in God, then you also know that you have no right to judge the elementary humanity of another. That privilege is reserved for a power greater than you. If Hell awaits, then that's not your call to make.

I agree, I am not the one to pass judgement. but it doesn't mean I can't speak out against these groups, or draw attention to their evil.
 

mynameisnobody

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All authority is control; I never knew you were and Anarchist. Join the club.
Any useful definition of "socialism" must be more specific. If "socialism" is defined so broadly that it includes all cooperative (or, for that matter, all coercive) human efforts, it's hardly useful.

The Communist Manifesto tried a similar bit of intellectual sleight-of-hand. Those who have read it may recall that it tries to appeal to the reader as being a communist already, even though he doesn't realize it. As a polemical device, it might have some merit; but as a working definition of communism, it's a flop.
 
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Bbucko

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Any useful definition of "socialism" must be more specific. If "socialism" is defined so broadly that it includes all cooperative (or, for that matter, all coercive) human efforts, it's hardly useful.

The Communist Manifesto tried this bit of intellectual sleight-of-hand. Those who have read it may recall that it tries to appeal to the reader as being a communist already, even though he doesn't realize it. As a polemical device, it might have some merit; but as a working definition of communism, it's a flop.

So you have no problem with "authority", just "control"?

I'm not seeing the difference.
 

JTalbain

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Anyway, on the actual subject of the thread (why oh why is it that talks about socialism always involve debates about evil?), I've always maintained that pure capitalism is not a good system for healthcare. One reason: Capitalism's own theory disproves itself as such.

The cornerstone of capitalist theory, and also the reason why capitalist theory says socialism will always fail, is a fairly basic concept. The average person will always be looking to get the maximum amount of profit for the minimum amount of work. It says socialism will fail because people will not get compensated for extra effort or innovation.

Consider, however, what this means for the medical industry. The greatest amount of profit for the least work isn't in finding a cure for anything, or in permanently treating anything. Why create a cure for a lethal disease that costs $10,000 and is administered once, when instead you could create a drug which ablates the symptoms, costs $500 a month, but will be taken by the patient for the rest of their life?

Case in point: AIDS vaccine protects 1/3 of people in Thai trial - Forbes.com We drop millions upon millions into AIDS research and we come out with antiretroviral drugs, which can extend the life of those infected by weakening, but not killing the virus, and mother freaking THAILAND beats us to a prototype vaccine? They've had 17 constitutions drafted in under 80 years, no time for a concerted national effort.... and they beat us? What the hell?

Here's another example: You are diagnosed with Type II Diabetes. Your doctor tells you it's vitally important to get you taking insulin on a regular basis to avoid the damage that will be caused by your disease. Advice your doctor will not give you? Eat fewer carbs and walk for 30 minutes a day. In over 90% of cases, your diabetes will go away on its own.

There's also the irony at my workplace. I work in a drugstore as the front end manager. I recently took a computer based training course about tobacco products which had page after page talking about the health problems caused by cigarettes, how many it kills, and how millions of days of life are lost every year to smoking. It went on to say how it holds the health of its customers in the highest regard. Then I exited the office, saw the pharmacy dispensing life improving drugs on one side, and the wall of tobacco products on the far wall. Hypocrisy much?

I liked what Dr. Denis Cortese (President and CEO of Mayo Clinic) had to say about healthcare reform. He is an expert on the matter of affordable quality healthcare, and pretty much all of Congress respects his advice. Whereas Obama has often been criticized for far reaching plans that are not feasible (like his proposed reform not raising taxes), Cortese is a both a realist and an idealist. He seems to be that rare kind of individual that both recognizes the ins and outs of the system, but wishes to make it serve the people better, rather than manipulate it for his own gain. He not only agrees with Obama's goals, but he has come up with reasonable models for how they can be accomplished, realistic time frames for return on capital investment, and how to make the healthcare system serve the people better, all the while using the basic tenets of capitalism to make the system right itself.

If the health care reform succeeds, Obama won't be the only one reaping the benefits. This guy'll be surgeon general within the decade.
 

b.c.

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Someone focus-grouped the word "socialist" and found it struck the deepest chords with the Republican base. Unlike Communist (which sounds rather old-hat), Americans never understood Socialism, which is a malleable concept to start with and isn't given to black/white dichotomies.
But in the hands of those looking to drive up fear among the ignorant and foolish, Socialism has become encoded shorthand for everything from Fascism to a Leftist takeover of all they hold dear driven by our "outsider" President.

The panty-wetting fear is palpable. Someday a whole lot of people are gonna feel really stupid: makes you wonder what they see in the mirror every day.

Exactly… yesterday's propaganda, all wrapped in tin foil and reheated.

Back then the word was "Commie". For example, according to some, M. L. King and the entire Civil Rights Movement weren’t struggling for the basic rights of every American. No, they were "stooges", inspired by and directed by Communists and other "outside agitators".

And to add to the mix, King himself later spoke of something called "social democracy", though there was/is little agreement as to the exact meaning of the term (in fact it is likened by some so-called "democratic socialists" to "capitalism"). Socialism, like fascism, and other such terms, have various interpretations.

However, as Bbucko stated, any reference to socialism is enough to get any “red blooded American's” dander up. Never mind that there have always been social based institutions and concepts within the framework of our government.

…Which is why certain groups from the right toss the term about so readily. It provokes fear by suggesting someone (or something) as being "un-American".

Propaganda 101.


(But, I wouldn't count on any of them waking up and feeling really stupid, not any time soon at least.)
 
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JTalbain

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I almost got into an argument with a customer today. I mentioned that the Canadian government employs heavy "vice taxes", or taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, or other controlled substances in order to help fund their healthcare system. He agreed, then said "People don't really think about that with socialized medicine, that's why it doesn't work." And proceeded to tell me that people in Canada have no health care specialists and are always on long waiting lists for tests like MRIs and can't get needed treatment for any serious condition. I found myself wondering if he had missed the memo where Canadians have a higher standard of living then us. Apparently he also missed the point where Canadians online are usually confused about why their healthcare system supposedly sucks.

I've noticed this train of thought with Capitalism vs Socialism a lot though. Basically, Capitalist theory says that Socialism doesn't and can't work in any circumstance, and so Socialism is assumed to be a failure without any qualifying evidence. Anyone else notice that? Any Canadians or Brits, who have what we have dubbed Socialized Medicine, care to weigh in?
 

B_Nick4444

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Exhibit B

Patterned responses as evidence of an inability to conceptualize in a meaningful or relevant way

In accord with the secular humanism that developed, in part, from a misreading of Margaret Mead, and in part from the adoption of European values-relativism nihilism, as described by Alston Chase, there is an inevitable set of responses elicited, if any sort of reference to values distinction is made.

In this example, the possibility of achievement of things great, of things exemplary, of things noble does not exist as a measure of distinction. The only interpretation to be made is that of an attempt to dehumanize.

The historical basis for this, of course, is understandable given the time line during which it arose -- the post World War II civil rights struggle of the American "black", and the emotional rhetoric permeating that struggle.

When the left adopted that struggle as one of its causes, the amalgam created was to posit that the only distinctions that were ever to be made, would be distinctions intended to dominate by dehumanizing: a tactic seen historically in the case of slavery, the Nazi pogroms, and, of course, the arguments for abortion.

As Alston Chase has pointed out, the result has also been the exclusion for the possibility of distinction based on achievement. Amalgamate this with the secular humanism also in vogue at the time, the displacing of objective right and wrong outside of man, instead placing man at the centrality, and man is elevated -- we are, each of us, the raison d'etre. No distinction may be drawn among us, lest it be to dominate or subjugate, or disparage. So, excellence and achievement are out the window, whether it be us, as individuals, or us as groups -- we are all the same.

One of the immediate consequences is least common denominator humanism is that we are actually reduced -- reduced to things which only need to be fed, clothed, allotted medical care. (And, BTW, the pavement is laid for the foray into globalism.)

All this in marked contrast to the Marxist socialists of old. (There were different forms of "socialism" before Marx, and different forms since, but none of them have demonstrated the impact and effect of the Marxist forms.) Marx and hid disciples spoke of the new man that would be created in a context of socialism, and how different the human condition would be. One might posit that therein lies the basis for its compelling impact among the intelligentsia of the previous age.

That contrasts markedly with the current left, which will be unable to articulate an INTENTIONALITY for socialism.

It also demonstrates, I think, to elucidate my previous proposition, that the current left's post 1960's dogma only allows for patterned responses, precluding, and preventing conceptualization in any meaningful, or relevant way.

 
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cdarro

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I almost got into an argument with a customer today. I mentioned that the Canadian government employs heavy "vice taxes", or taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, or other controlled substances in order to help fund their healthcare system. He agreed, then said "People don't really think about that with socialized medicine, that's why it doesn't work." And proceeded to tell me that people in Canada have no health care specialists and are always on long waiting lists for tests like MRIs and can't get needed treatment for any serious condition. I found myself wondering if he had missed the memo where Canadians have a higher standard of living then us. Apparently he also missed the point where Canadians online are usually confused about why their healthcare system supposedly sucks.

I've noticed this train of thought with Capitalism vs Socialism a lot though. Basically, Capitalist theory says that Socialism doesn't and can't work in any circumstance, and so Socialism is assumed to be a failure without any qualifying evidence. Anyone else notice that? Any Canadians or Brits, who have what we have dubbed Socialized Medicine, care to weigh in?

I have posted elsewhere in this forum on the myths, misconceptions, misrepresentations and outright lies promulgated by some in the US about the Canadian health care system. Many who are philosophically opposed to what they term "socialized" medicine simply will not hear any contrary information. My taxes are not ridiculously high, there are not long waiting lists (though there were somewhat, in the late 1990s), I am not restricted in my access to whichever physician I care to see, I am not denied access to specialized care.......etc., etc. Ours is not a perfect system by any means, but it gives universal coverage for high quality care. It works, it works pretty well, and has done so for over forty years.
 
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B_Nick4444

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oh, yeah, that was the other thing

simply instituting a health care program does not render the country socialist

socialism is not on the table under Obama

to consider otherwise simply misunderstands him; if anything, Obama is unquestionably a trilateral-globalist (which is probably the best descriptor I've come across for him). If anything, as well, he favors the larger corporations at the expense of the smaller enterprises; a proposition that is indisputable, given his globalist proclivities, the policies he has implemented, and his proposed taxation scheme.

The health care proposals are simply a strategy to mollify social discontent, comparable to the programs implemented by Otto von Bismarck and Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

and, they will be necessary in the foreseeable future owing to another policy he is pursuing -- that of a government imposed US dollar devaluation.

The impact of that latter policy will be to direct investment overseas, as well as jobs, factories, and the innovation that has characterized America. As opportunities evaporate, unemployment soars, social mobility disappears, and the American middle class contracts, and the size of the working poor explodes. (The most generous imputation of the motivation of this policy is to ameliorate the impact of the massive debt to foreigners, particularly, china, that the this administration, and the Petroleum Presidency of George Bush, have each incurred; otherwise, Obama is just out to destroy the country, so grave will be the impact on our living standards.)

So, in a scenario of struggling, over-burdened small businesses, a massively growing underclass, government sponsored health care will be a necessity.

It is not, however, "socialism", or the movement to that.


 

b.c.

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Exhibit B

Patterned responses as evidence of an inability to conceptualize in a meaningful or relevant way...

....In this example, the possibility of achievement of things great, of things exemplary, of things noble does not exist as a measure of distinction. The only interpretation to be made is that of an attempt to dehumanize...

...When the left adopted that struggle as one of its causes, the amalgam created was to posit that the only distinctions that were ever to be made, would be distinctions intended to dominate by dehumanizing: a tactic seen historically in the case of slavery, the Nazi pogroms, and, of course, the arguments for abortion....

I must admit you're really lost me here. Are you actually suggesting that it is a "tactic" of those on the political "left" to "dominate by dehumanizing"?
 

Bbucko

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I must admit you're really lost me here. Are you actually suggesting that it is a "tactic" of those on the political "left" to "dominate by dehumanizing"?

Nah. He just hates it when his philosophies define him as a hater.
 

B_Nick4444

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I must admit you're really lost me here. Are you actually suggesting that it is a "tactic" of those on the political "left" to "dominate by dehumanizing"?


Not at all.

What I'm saying is that somehow making value judgments, about groups, or individuals became taboo.

The reason for that, was since values are all relative, since there are no "real" values, the only reason one would make a distinction would be in an effort to validate or justify or excuse some sort of domination, or degradation.

The flip side is that since there is no "wrong", it likewise would not make sense to speak of something being "right" in an absolute sense.

As Alston Chase pointed out, in discussing the consequences for education, so also are we throwing out the possibility of recognizing "excellence".

extrapolating from this, the same "logic" is applied as Bbucko is urging: to recognize the achievements or excellence achieved by one set of people, is to denigrate another

So, we are foreclosed from making certain distinctions, to maintain the idea that no real values can be applied, else we fall into the trap of denigrating with the intention of dominating, or dehumanizing.

What I was trying to point out, is that it was during an age when the civil rights struggle had reached a boiling point. Real breakthroughs were being blocked by arguments ascribing to the "minority races" certain inherent flaws of character, intelligence, etc., so real progress seemed uncertain.

The rhetoric became louder, and, when the left took up the cause, a weird amalgam of these different strands that the left was espousing and adopting, occurred.

It became imperative to prevent the transmission of bigotry to the younger generations, and to overcome the existing prejudices in society.

The way that was adopted was to categorically deny any differences among us -- to assert any difference, was to partake of, and engage in bigotry.

But again, that means, as Alston Chase pointed out, that we would be throwing out the notions of achievement and excellence.


Accept it, or not, but so sayeth Nick444.