Talking points on health care.

SilverTrain

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You didn't answer me. What percent of GDP is health care.

You were talking apples and oranges after all. Thanks for playing.

Off the top of my head, I have no idea.

But this is your straw man, dude.

Which institution is bigger was not a part of this discussion until you raised it.

So, are you out to impress the debate team captain, or do you want our country to find a health care system that cares for its citizenry?

Or do you just want to bag some jolly by tossing around talking points on a message board?
 

B_spiker067

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Off the top of my head, I have no idea.

But this is your straw man, dude.

Which institution is bigger was not a part of this discussion until you raised it.

So, are you out to impress the debate team captain, or do you want our country to find a health care system that cares for its citizenry?

Or do you just want to bag some jolly by tossing around talking points on a message board?

You raised it. You made a comparison that I said was apples and oranges.

HSA would care for this citizenry and force the tit sucking Brits to pay their fair share of development costs.
 

Industrialsize

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Exactly. But it did at one time and it is what got us here.

That is why prices have to be brought down with everyone having to shop for their everyday non-catastrophic care.
I think you have way to much confidence in the market to self regulate to bring down costs.
 

B_spiker067

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NOTHING currently in effect or being proposed in Congress is "Socialized Medicine".
Whatever part govt. pays for healthcare is socialized.

I'm sorry but the BHO plan breaks the system and forces an eventuality. You know it and I know it.

I'm not against what part of our system is socialized but it needs to paid for by capitalism.
 
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Industrialsize

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Whatever part govt. pays for healthcare is socialized.
I think you need to study what socialism is.
I'm sorry but the BHO plan breaks the system and forces an eventuality. You know it and I know it.
If you're talking about a Single Payer System, then yes, I'm all for it. And by the way, that still wouldn't be socialized medicine.
I'm not against what part of our system is socialized but it needs to paid for by capitalism.
 

cdarro

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There is not one country in which the socialist part of its health care system is not running in the red despite paying less for the medication and the health care workers that the market would ordinarily bear.


Other developed countries' health care costs are subsidized by the American consumer. Americans, for one example, pay more for their American made drugs than do Canadians. If it were simply because the drugs were Canadian government subsidized, then Americans would not have been allowed by Canada's government to cross the border and buy their medication. This is true across the board for medication and health care related products. A law can be made to change this and thereby lower prices for Americans by having the other developed nations pay their fair share. We pay more for Swiss made drugs than the socialized Swiss do. We pay for their research and care costs.

You know, this is the sort of thing that just makes Canadians shake their heasds and roll their eyes. The reason Americans pay more for their drugs than Canadians do is that our government does not allow as long a patent protection period as the US does, and cover only lowest-cost generics. And the "subsidized" low cost Canadian drugs sold to Americans? We can't buy them here; they are sold to Americans who think they are getting a good deal - and they probably are - by companies who may be Canadian but are most likely south asian, but who have managed to obtain a "Canadian" website. Also, most new drug research is done in Europe now, largely due to American product liability laws.

I don't have any problem with criticism of our health care system's flaws - and there are many - but it would be nice if the critics would inform themselves objectively and not swallow the FoxNews gospel nor that of posters (here and elsewhere) who take headlines out of context and quote selectively.

It's just sad.
 

B_talltpaguy

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^They have no interest in learning from the reality of the world around them... The wingnuts are perfectly content to live within the cozy confines of their own ideological certitude.

Wingnut conservatives are like ancient artifacts... They're somewhat useful as a source for insight into the past, but they're absolutely useless in the modern world.
 

maxcok

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Talking points on health care.

^ The title of this thread says it all.

. . . This is the ONLY true long term solution.
All hail the ONLY solution.

. . . have a frivolous shopping spree? . . .
Let's.

. . . That is why prices have to be brought down with everyone having to shop for their everyday non-catastrophic care.
Hey, hey, the American way!

LOL, it's that "sitcom family" world . . . on a leafy half acre in the nicer end of Encino. . . . I'm moving there, when my number comes up in the Secret Republican Lottery.
I'm down with your entire proposal, except for the Encino part. Can we move to Santa Monica instead?
 

dandelion

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There is not one country in which the socialist part of its health care system is not running in the red despite paying less for the medication and the health care workers that the market would ordinarily bear.
I dont understand this. Health care is a cost, never a profitable business. The best outcome is being (nearly) as well as you started out. The motor industry makes cars which you get to drive around. You go to a restaurant because you enjoy the evening. You like visiting hospital?


Other developed countries' health care costs are subsidized by the American consumer. Americans, for one example, pay more for their American made drugs than do Canadians.
B Ollocks. Those Indian ripoff companies make drugs for virtually nothing, which is presumably the real production cost. As to development costs, what do you bet that if all the money spent on this by drug companies was put in a pot and spent according to a scientific program of what would benefit people most, we would have many many more useful drugs.

Drug companies DO NOT develop drugs to help patients get well. They develop drugs to MAKE MONEY. So we get three kinds of viagra. The first was purely an accident. The next two which are much the same were developed to get a cut of the market. Total waste of development money as far as really helping people.

Then there is that other brilliant strategy of deveoping a drug which is a tiny bit better but because it is new has a patent. Then discontinue the old drug which was essentially just as good but no longer makes vast amounts of money. Buy out any chemical company that decides to make the cheap one and stop production. Pay them a ton of cash to stop production. Rubbish any traditional drugs or stuff that grows on trees (dare I mention that handy grow in your own garden drug cannabis?).

If you really want to develop new drugs slash all the profits of drug companies and organise a central fund to pay for research. The Welcome foundation in the UK is a private charity which is one of the biggest funders of research. Bill Gates? These people pay for medical research which help real people but which drug companies won't touch because they don't see it as profitable.


The un-insured in this country are being gouged by hospitals. You could for example walk in to the hospital as an un-insured individual and be billed for $1,800 for services insurance companies would only be billed $800 for. A law could be passed that did not allow price differentials greater than some percentage (say 10%).
That sounds terrble. How did you guys allow that to happen?


There are three types of medical care: 1) primary; 2)chronic and 3) catastrophic. Insurance should only be covering catastrophic care. Americans citizens should be shopping for their care in order to keep prices down and yet be able to pay for cutting edge developments in medication, procedures, and devices.
The UK has gone through a lot of privatisation of state industries in the last 20 or 30 years. By and large the lesson is, IT DOES NOT HELP. It is always argued that the private sector drives down prices because of competition. Generally there is no real competition because the companies concerned are so big. two or three players at the most, and they all want to make money so have a vested interest in PUSHING UP prices. Then, they have to make money. Whatever the service cost before, they want 10% on top for their profit. Always. And the profit comes first.

In the UK we have privatised train services. They cut a deal that prices would go up 1% above inflation. Happy bunnies while their costs were running lower than inflation, they were getting a real profit boost each year. Then suddenly we get negative inflation so they ought to get cuts. Did they ever holler and claim it was not fair and they could not accept a cut but would walk away from their contract. (apparently the companies running the services are shells so if they go bust it makes no difference to the parent groups which has been getting the profits). That is a typical example of the private sector. Profit always comes first.


Health Saving Accounts (HSA's) are the only way the above mentioned can be addressed economically and fairly.
New one on me, we dont have such a thing. In reality this is a half way house which partially shares out health costs but is still just an effective route for the rich. The real question in medicine is whether you believe citizens should get it as a right, or whether you should only get it if you can pay. Everything else is just arguing about the details. It is a simple choice though lots of people are trying to hide it. A system like the UK represents a decision that everyone by right of being alive is entitled to health care as good as anyone else gets. It does not deliver a rolls royce service. The rich can pay for that on top if they want. It does deliver a good service comparable to or better than that in any other country including the US. I was shocked to see a documentary about world chairites operating free health care clinics in the US. US health care is great if you have lots of money, but otherwise it is way inefficient or nonexistent.
 

B_spiker067

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You know, this is the sort of thing that just makes Canadians shake their heasds and roll their eyes. The reason Americans pay more for their drugs than Canadians do is that our government does not allow as long a patent protection period as the US does, and cover only lowest-cost generics. And the "subsidized" low cost Canadian drugs sold to Americans? We can't buy them here; they are sold to Americans who think they are getting a good deal - and they probably are - by companies who may be Canadian but are most likely south asian, but who have managed to obtain a "Canadian" website. Also, most new drug research is done in Europe now, largely due to American product liability laws.

I don't have any problem with criticism of our health care system's flaws - and there are many - but it would be nice if the critics would inform themselves objectively and not swallow the FoxNews gospel nor that of posters (here and elsewhere) who take headlines out of context and quote selectively.

It's just sad.

Links?
 

B_spiker067

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@dandelion & max &
The un-insured in this country are being gouged by hospitals. You could for example walk in to the hospital as an un-insured individual and be billed for $1,800 for services insurance companies would only be billed $800 for. A law could be passed that did not allow price differentials greater than some percentage (say 10%).

This quote alone proves I'm a centrist on the issue. I also attack the price gouging of American pharmaceutical companies.


You guys should read more carefully because your responses have been habitually in response to a wingnut when I'm a center-rightist.

And your guys inability to understand what running in the red means... is mind boggling. Look at Greece. Take a closer look at the socialized medicine around the world

Watch this reason magazine videio:http://reason.tv/video/show/508.html
 
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dandelion

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Is there a more important thing to spend money on then our health?

In a family, do you blow off going to the doctor when little Christine has a medical problem, so that you can go buy guns?
invest in some novel long-term opportunity?
have a frivolous shopping spree?
trade in the Nissan mid-size for a Hummer?

No.

ah well, yes. As a proud parent you will spend whatever it takes on Christine. As a government you know that $100,000 dollars spent by a rich guy to save Christine could have been $10,000 dollars to save Katie, $10,000 for Elizabeth, $10,000 for Amy, $10,000 for George... and so on. None of those kids parents had the money, but you could have saved ten of them in place of Christine. Parents can't make those choices but governments can and must. It is immoral to allow Katie, Elizabeth, Amy, George and their 6 friends to die just to save Christine.

I know, and everyone else knows, that people die and will continue to die. It is necessary to allow people to die and spend money on other things rather than fighting desperate and unaffordable medical battles to keep them alive. Better to pay for clean water, good food and somewhere to live. A responsible government eventuall comes to the realisation that health care has to be managed equitably for everyone...because that is in the national good and in the long run is better for everyone
 

B_spiker067

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The problem with BHO's plan is that he and Democrats are working on rationing care rather than vastly increasing the supply.

It is what liberal Democrats usually do - rationing - they don't want to expand. Expanding is counter their nature. Expansion somehow consumes nature and so their subliminal response is ... rationing. They don't know how to make more.

Conservative Republicans limit supply because they to often want over the top profit.
 

B_spiker067

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ah well, yes. As a proud parent you will spend whatever it takes on Christine. As a government you know that $100,000 dollars spent by a rich guy to save Christine could have been $10,000 dollars to save Katie, $10,000 for Elizabeth, $10,000 for Amy, $10,000 for George... and so on. None of those kids parents had the money, but you could have saved ten of them in place of Christine. Parents can't make those choices but governments can and must. It is immoral to allow Katie, Elizabeth, Amy, George and their 6 friends to die just to save Christine.

This is the most sickening thing I've heard. It is moronic communism at its best.

The $100,000 to save Christine today saves Johnn, Selma, ... for $1,500 tomorrow - just for one counterpoint argument alone.
 

dandelion

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This is the most sickening thing I've heard. It is moronic communism at its best.
If you really believe that everyone can have as much health care as they need up to the limits of technology, then I can see why the US has such a problem.

The $100,000 to save Christine today saves Johnn, Selma, ... for $1,500 tomorrow - just for one counterpoint argument alone.
er, how? Her surgeon spending 3 months on holiday somewher nice and living in a big house does what, exactly?