Taxes are bad (in general)

Wyldgusechaz

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Starving, perhaps not but malnourished and living in appalling conditions for sure, open your eyes next time you're out.



Actually the last time I checked the US has an 'official' unemployment figure of 4.5% though the real figure is probably near 12%. The figure in the UK is about 5%. Low, yes but far from zero. Economic strength is extremely subjective depending on one's postion on the ladder.

I'm glad you're doing well but don't insult those less fortunate by implying even indirectly that they only have themselves to blame, there are many factors that determine one's overall economic well being, income is only one of them.

4.5% represents full employment. You can't get down to 0% due to logistics.

My eyes are very open. I work in the poorest part of the city in which I live. I see poor people every day. I know how they live. Appalling conditions are what people in Calcutta or Sao Paulo live in. I interact daily, every single day, with newly arrived illegals from Mexico. Jalisco, Zacatecas, Chihuahua. I have partners from Ecuador, Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Bolivia, Poland, and Russia. This what they will tell you *America is the place where our dreams can come true.*

There are some people who are handicapped in some way and will never be able to enjoy life due to circumstances beyond their control. They need our help. There are a lot of people who simply make poor choices. Not sure they need help.
 

Lex

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My effective tax rate is about 22%. I know it exactly and I know the tax laws pretty well. Why should I pay 22% and you pay 10%? I pay 12% more than you for a lot of things I don't want. Thats an inequality. ... Why?

You would have to ask a tax attorney. If I look at a single paycheck, I am taxed at the usual 24-27% overall. Tax returns are a different animal altogether.

Our tax rates are not to be equal, but rather equitiable. Big difference there.

It could be that my rate is lower than yours as I am a married father of 2, pay childcare, used flexible dependent and health care spending accounts (which allow you to put aside money for these item tax free as long as you spend them within the year and document with your receipts), work in education, own a home and donate money and goods (new and used ) to charity every year without fail.

Also, please note that I did not get a refund (and have not gotten one for years). I try every year to break even with the government. I would rather owe them $500 than have given them an interest free loan (refund) for 13 months.

...I am curious tho. Did you take that extra 12% and give it to charity? Statistics say no. You spent it in your own way which is great.

What extra 12%? The difference in my tax rate and your tax rate is inherent in our different life circumstances. As I said earlier, my money and efforts are always where my mouth is. I donate my time, money and goods throughout the year to various charitable organizations.

...
Its interesting that people are so uncomfortable discussing money. Why?
I am not uncomfortable with this discussion.
 

Lex

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...

Actually the last time I checked the US has an 'official' unemployment figure of 4.5% though the real figure is probably near 12%. The figure in the UK is about 5%. Low, yes but far from zero. Economic strength is extremely subjective depending on one's postion on the ladder.

...

U.S. unemployment statistics are VERY misleading.

1. They only take into account people who have filed for unemployment within the last 3 months. So, the people who have stopped filing or given up are not counted. lso not counted are people who never re-qualify or reapply as unemployment benefits last for up to three months and then you must refile.

2. It does not take into account UNDERemployment. For example, the working mother/father than works at Wal-Mart, Target or HomeDepot for $8 an hour, which does not cover all of their living expenses.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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A .
When we're told from someone in a much higher income bracket level that they sympathise with our position but sure as hell don't mind using us as a fiscal buffer when they're old.

Obviously I have no problem with it.

So should a rich person just give the money back to the government or should they spend it on whatever? If he/she gives it back then SSI becomes welfare, the dole. If he/she spends it, it gets used again and again. Why not spend it with an interior designer rather than a cruise missle? Maybe you don't get it.
 

Ethyl

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So should a rich person just give the money back to the government or should they spend it on whatever? If he/she gives it back then SSI becomes welfare, the dole. If he/she spends it, it gets used again and again. Why not spend it with an interior designer rather than a cruise missle? Maybe you don't get it.

Yeah, I don't get it. :rolleyes:

I wasn't talking about possible solutions but referring to your nouveau riche attitude of "You poor schlubs are getting the shaft and you should stand up to the gov't. I know you'll be paying MY Social Security but that's your problem, not mine, and i'm glad i'l benefit from all YOUR hard work." It's precisely this attitude that's paved the road for my generation. If you are truly empathetic, you'd understand that.
 

dong20

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4.5% represents full employment. You can't get down to 0% due to logistics.

Well it's statistics so largely meaningless anyway.

My eyes are very open. I work in the poorest part of the city in which I live. I see poor people every day. I know how they live. Appalling conditions are what people in Calcutta or Sao Paulo live in. I interact daily, every single day, with newly arrived illegals from Mexico. Jalisco, Zacatecas, Chihuahua. I have partners from Ecuador, Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Bolivia, Poland, and Russia. This what they will tell you *America is the place where our dreams can come true.*

Well, good for you and for sure conditions at the bottom of the economic tree in the countries you mention (of which I have first hand experience of except Russia - have you?) are for the most part worse than in the US (or UK), I'm not disputing that. In any nation no one should live in such conditions. I'm sure that in many cases immigrants are financially better off though often there is a high price to pay, but America as the place where dreams can come true? Yes for a few, but as for the realisation of dreams, for most that's more 'hollywood' than payslip.

There are some people who are handicapped in some way and will never be able to enjoy life due to circumstances beyond their control. They need our help. There are a lot of people who simply make poor choices. Not sure they need help.

I agree, but I've found, that those who espouse your final sentiment are those that complain the loudest when things go wrong for them. There is a big difference between handouts and help.

I pay a fair amount of tax, quite possibly more (at least % wise) than you, I'm not happy about it but I'm not starting a thread to whine about how unfair it all is either. Enjoy your financial success, you have probably earned it but please don't complain about how you feel hard done by as a result.
 

dong20

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U.S. unemployment statistics are VERY misleading.

1. They only take into account people who have filed for unemployment within the last 3 months. So, the people who have stopped filing or given up are not counted. lso not counted are people who never re-qualify or reapply as unemployment benefits last for up to three months and then you must refile.

2. It does not take into account UNDERemployment. For example, the working mother/father than works at Wal-Mart, Target or HomeDepot for $8 an hour, which does not cover all of their living expenses.

I know, as I just said above, it's statistics, worse; Government statistics. The same manipulation of figures goes on in the UK.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Yeah, I don't get it. :rolleyes:

I wasn't talking about possible solutions but referring to your nouveau riche attitude of "You poor schlubs are getting the shaft and you should stand up to the gov't. I know you'll be paying MY Social Security but that's your problem, not mine, and i'm glad i'l benefit from all YOUR hard work." It's precisely this attitude that's paved the road for my generation. If you are truly empathetic, you'd understand that.

No you don't get it. My hard work benefits someone retired right now. Thats the social contract we call Social Security. The fact that the timing doesn't favor you is unfortunate.

BTW your assault on my supposed * nouveau riche* attitude is rich, given that likely most of your clients are NR. They have the money to afford an interior designer/space planner. Your career is one of the most socially useless there is. What poor person needs an interior designer? However and please read this for what it truly means, your career adds exciting color and vibrancy that we sorely need. Why do renasaince people like you exist? Because of money grubbers like me. Been that way since the time of the Medici's and the artists, like Giotto. You need my *greed* and I value your talent. Symbiosis.


NR got that usually by working hard. It doesn't just fall into their laps. I like the NR, because i know they have worked really hard to get where they are. That hard work has benefitted a lot of people.

Your generation will be characterized by the choices you make. Good or bad.
 

YourAvgGuy

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Taxes are a neccesary evil. Believe me when I tell you that my wife and I both pay in a ridiculous amount as well. However, I understand the need for it. My mother has always told me... "be happy that you make enough money to pay taxes; it could be the other way around." As I have matured, I have realized what her message conveys. There are those less fortunate; there are those who are disabled; there are those who are elderly and there are those (children) who cannot support themselves. For this, I gladly pay taxes. HOWEVER, understanding the conditions of how our systems work... I do detest those amongst us who abuse the system and what it is suppose to do. And, likewise, I detest the misappropriation of funds and mishandling of monies to fund political agendas, self-interest groups, etc (needed to make that clarification!).

As for supporting our government and society, again, I think those among us who are able do have a responsibility to less fortunate individuals. We ethically and morally, I think, should assist those in need. Besides, priviledge (however you define it) is what seperates us. And, that priviledge is the wedge between the haves versuses the have nots. And, to answer your question, in case you are wondering... yes, we give a considerable amount of money to charitable organizations, church, etc (over $27,000) this year alone.

How we spend our money is a personal choice. If you want to take a cruise or fly to Rome for 3 weeks staying in a first-class hotel, then do it. If you want to spend massive amounts of money to redesign you home then do it (by the way, I am available to help finish your decor! haha) or if you want to be good stewards and invest, save and support your economy and your future in a positive way, then do it. It all boils down to personal comfort and likes... Just, please, don't continiously harp on the negatives of paying taxes. Be thankful you are blessed because tomorrow you could possibly LOOSE EVERTYING and your tax dollars that you've paid could then be your life jacket and your personal rescue from poverty.

Just my $.02
 

dong20

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Blocko

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4.5% represents full employment. You can't get down to 0% due to logistics.

My eyes are very open. I work in the poorest part of the city in which I live. I see poor people every day. I know how they live. Appalling conditions are what people in Calcutta or Sao Paulo live in. I interact daily, every single day, with newly arrived illegals from Mexico. Jalisco, Zacatecas, Chihuahua. I have partners from Ecuador, Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Bolivia, Poland, and Russia. This what they will tell you *America is the place where our dreams can come true.*

There are some people who are handicapped in some way and will never be able to enjoy life due to circumstances beyond their control. They need our help. There are a lot of people who simply make poor choices. Not sure they need help.

Having lived in America myself, there are times that it seems more like a 3rd world country. The streets are in poor repair. Homeless people are abundant... and contrary to popular belief aren't all drug addicts or mentally ill... often people who lost their job, stretched their last penny to try and pay their mortgage and now can't get a new job without a home to make themselves look employable.

Civic and social services provide a safety net we all enjoy. Just because you are currently in a position of wealth, it doesn't mean that will always be the case (law suit, anyone?). The social contract of society (the one which obligates us to pay our taxes) is that the government underwrites you.

However, you can have this and cut taxes. All you have to do is reduce and make more efficient the most wasteful and expensive part of any budget, defense.
 

bigdog1

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I thought this website was about the penis, who had to go and start talking politics. In particular the politics of money and taxes. But I am going to throw in my two cents, oops make that a quarter, inflation you know. Before I start, I am not asking anyone to believe what I am about to put forth. I do, however encourage you to research for yourself.

From what I have perused thus far everyone here is pretty ill informed on the whole federal income tax issue. I have spent alot of time researching it and have come to the following conclusions.

1. The 16th amendment was never properly ratified.
(google "The law that never was")
2. Even if it was, the Supreme Court actually ruled that it gave the feds no
new taxing powers. Don't know the actual case, but it exists.
3. The 16th amendment could not have been ratified without coming into
direct conflict with the Constitution which prohibits direct unaportioned
taxes, which is how the federal income tax is administered.
4. The Federal Reserve is not a part of the U.S. Government, but a private
banking corporation whose stockholders include the Rockefellers and the
Rothschilds along with a bunch of other bloated, greasy, three sandwich
eating s.o.b.s.
5. These vampires make money out of thin air and "lend" it to the US
government charging interest. Don't you wish you could do that?
6. The I.R.S. (I Rob Suckers) is the collection arm for the Federal Reserve,
this is how they collect their interest. The I.R.S. is also not a part of the
US Government, don't believe me? Find the Congressional statute that
created it. there is'nt one.
7. Besides all the smoke and mirrors that the above represents, most
Americans would still be subject to the Federal Income Tax anyway.
This happened because of the social security act. When you sign up
for social security, you voluntarily relinquish your State Citizenship to
become a Federal Citizen. The 14th Amendment (also not properly ratified) was
created after the Civil War to accomodate the freed slaves. It in effect
created a new type of citizenship, actually a second class citizen. You
see 14th amendment citizens are not guaranteed the Constitution or the
Bill of Rights. It can be extended to a Federal Citizen, but can be taken
away anytime at the Federal Governments whim. How ironic that an
amendment that was suppose to help newly freed slaves actually set
everyone up for slavery. Because, that is exactly what the Federal
Income tax represents pure and simple.
8. To all of those that think that the money that is collected as the Federal
Income tax is spent on services and infrastructure here in America are
also deluded. Most of us are unaware of the myriad of types of taxes
that we pay everyday in the normal course of living. For instance, taxes
on gasoline and tires pay for our roadways and brides in addition to tolls.
I realize this was drawn out, but was needed to show how convoluted
and confusing this issue can be. It was designed this way to make it
difficult for us to untangle, but times are a'changin. Get ahold of the film
by Aron Russo, "From Freedom to Facism". And to learn more about how
the government has hoodwinked us into becoming 2nd class citizens go
to www.sedm.org. Websites also reccomended are Alex Jones' Infowars.com :: There is a War on for Your Mind!
and The Resistance Manifesto

Power to the people
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Taxes are a neccesary evil. Believe me when I tell you that my wife and I both pay in a ridiculous amount as well. However, I understand the need for it. My mother has always told me... "be happy that you make enough money to pay taxes; it could be the other way around." As I have matured, I have realized what her message conveys. There are those less fortunate; there are those who are disabled; there are those who are elderly and there are those (children) who cannot support themselves. For this, I gladly pay taxes. HOWEVER, understanding the conditions of how our systems work... I do detest those amongst us who abuse the system and what it is suppose to do. And, likewise, I detest the misappropriation of funds and mishandling of monies to fund political agendas, self-interest groups, etc (needed to make that clarification!).

As for supporting our government and society, again, I think those among us who are able do have a responsibility to less fortunate individuals. We ethically and morally, I think, should assist those in need. Besides, priviledge (however you define it) is what seperates us. And, that priviledge is the wedge between the haves versuses the have nots. And, to answer your question, in case you are wondering... yes, we give a considerable amount of money to charitable organizations, church, etc (over $27,000) this year alone.

How we spend our money is a personal choice. If you want to take a cruise or fly to Rome for 3 weeks staying in a first-class hotel, then do it. If you want to spend massive amounts of money to redesign you home then do it (by the way, I am available to help finish your decor! haha) or if you want to be good stewards and invest, save and support your economy and your future in a positive way, then do it. It all boils down to personal comfort and likes... Just, please, don't continiously harp on the negatives of paying taxes. Be thankful you are blessed because tomorrow you could possibly LOOSE EVERTYING and your tax dollars that you've paid could then be your life jacket and your personal rescue from poverty.

Just my $.02

There is a misunderstanding and likely my error. I can handle taxes. But overall taxes hurt more than help. They don't really hurt me. I have a great life and contribute even more than you to charity. I gladly do it. I have a great life. Its getting better. Its the little guy tying to move up that onerous taxes hurt. I worry for him/her.

I like being charitable. I just needed to illustrate my point in a selfish way. I really believe greed is good. Humans are an acquisitive animal. I would never want my grasp to reach my desires. that why I want to fuck lots of people!! LOL

BTW I am putting in, maybe, a distressed either pine or hickory floor. that shit is costly!!!!!
 

Big Dreamer

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There are very few in America starving. Quite the contrary we are grossly overweight. There may be some homeless who are due to mental illness and drug dependency but no one is starving. Thats why poor people COME to America. To stop being poor. Go to a McDonalds today. They are all manned by immigrants.

And seriously, how the fuck would an able bodied person be penniless and homeless in America? We have zero unemployment as does the UK, Sweden and a few others. The economy has never been better.

I thought that the US had a 4.5% unemployment rate. With 140 million potential workers that feed into this statistic, that would leave 6.75 million citizens unemployed. It's too easy for those of us on the good side of the economic picture to forget about those individuals.
 

dong20

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I like being charitable. I just needed to illustrate my point in a selfish way. I really believe greed is good.

Well if it works for you. The thing about greed is that it's divisive by definition, so for a given economic pie the bigger the slice you grab for yourself (and this is where greed gets repellent - beyond what you need) the less there is for others.

The problem is in ensuring the overall pie is big enough so no one goes hungry, in order to do that we need to contribute the ingredients in proportion to our appetite.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Well if it works for you. The thing about greed is that it's divisive by definition, so for a given economic pie the bigger the slice you grab for yourself (and this is where greed gets repellent - beyond what you need) the less there is for others.

The problem is in ensuring the overall pie is big enough so no one goes hungry, in order to do that we need to contribute the ingredients in proportion to our appetite.

Taxes reduce the pie. Thats what I mean. I want a young person to live her dreams.