Taxes are bad (in general)

Wyldgusechaz

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For the mobile-wealth investor class, yes indeed.

Yet the number of Americans (wage earning families with children in particular) without any form of health insurance has been rising steadily since GWB took office. Their number is approaching 50 million.

Its not GWBs fault. Its the American peoples fault. We want cadillac care at yugo prices. We could have a reasonably priced insurance but there would be an ugly kicker. Care would have to be with held from those with little chance of survival. Care would need to be rationed. Thats a tough political sell.

Example: should a smoker get a heart bypass? An expensive compassionate insurance says yes. An efficient, cost maintainence insurer would have to say no. Who would make that decision?
 

SpeedoGuy

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The top 2% of earners pay 38% of federal tax burden.

If those figures are true then they reveal that a small slice of the nation's population controls a disproportionately large share of the nation's wealth. (and growing). This is not a recipe for long term social or economic stability when many everyday wage earners are working two or more jobs to break even.

Cake, anyone?
 

Ethyl

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Its not GWBs fault. Its the American peoples fault. We want cadillac care at yugo prices. We could have a reasonably priced insurance but there would be an ugly kicker. Care would have to be with held from those with little chance of survival. Care would need to be rationed. Thats a tough political sell.

Utter bullshit. My mother and I discussed this recently. Years ago, almost all employers offered health insurance. It was always part of the salary package. Due to rising costs many small businesses cannot afford to offer health insurance to their employees. Other businesses require employees to pay higher premiums. Blaming the problem on the American people is simply an avoidance measure.

Look at Scandinavia. They pay a shitload of taxes and everyone has health care. 80% is funded by the state and it's considered the best health care in the world. Oh, and get this - they pay special attention to the children and elderly, whom in the states often get the worst care. Their model of health care is something to aspire to, rather than ignore.
 

headbang8

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Forgive me for spraying some gasoline on a debate which is well and truly aflame. But I think blocko's rather sensible comments seem to have been lost in the fray.

Goosechase's original question could be read like this: is tax, in principle, a good thing or a bad thing? That's like asking if water is good. It's essential to life, but you can drown in it. One might as well ask if one leg is better than the other.

But I don't think that was Goosechase's intent. Rather, he asks, is tax a brake on the creation of wealth? Does less wealth trickle down through the economy so we all have less to share? And on a different tack, is there a social justice issue--should you be penalised because you think smart, work hard, and earn a lot of money?

Let's look at the first half of the question.

Blocko reminds us that the money paid in tax doesn't evaporate into thin air just because it passes through the government's hands. The government can spend it, or invest it.

Roads and other infrastructure, clearly, count as investments. Public roads enable economic growth; Wal-Mart wouldn't be able to offer its low prices if it had to build its own private roads from warehouse to store, and Target had to find a way to do the same. It's clearly more efficient for these businesses to pay taxes and share the roads with each other, and as a happy by-product, with you and me.

Here, the USA is a stark contrast with the rest of the world. Americans view almost all government investment as spending. And no wonder.

The ethos of freedom and independence is a noble one. But it makes for incredibly inefficiencies when it comes to government.

In Britain, Her Majesty's police is structured and ordered--and paid for--centrally. Same with the French gendarmerie. In Australia, the Federal government collects most of the taxes, and the six states do the investing. One of the investments is a state police force; no local police fighting with the state police and the feds over who does what.

By contrast, I drove through New Jersey yesterday. State troopers pulled people over on Route 80. So did the Parsippany police. The George Washington Bridge is patrolled by two state police forces, the Fort Lee police force, New York's finest, the Port Authority police, and get this, the George Washington Bridge Police Force.

All of this creates incredible inefficiency and waste, and the opportunity for pork barrelling skyrockets. Every community guards its independence and self-determination; in truth, they just want to play with tax money and not be accountable to anyone but the local, manipulable political machine. Amercans get incredibly poor value-for-money from their tax dollars. Governments are not investors, they're spenders, with the Federal Government the classic helpless sugar daddy, shredding cash and sprinkling it on whichever special interest bleats the loudest. And special-interest groups become the only real communities to which we belong, nowadays.

No wonder Americans hate paying tax, even at a modest 22%.

According to Nationmaster.com, the US puts 29.6% of GDP through the public sector, Australia 31.5% through the public sector, Britain 37%. Significant differences, yes, but still plenty of room in the economy for people to make money; all three economies have grown at a healthy clip over that last few years.

What astonishes me is that for the small percentage differences in the size of the public sector, Australians and Britons get so much more in the way of public services.

IN the USA, museums are built largely through private or corporate charity; in Australia and Britain, the government foots a large portion of the bill.

Public broadcasters in the USA constantly put out their hands to subscribers; they have to, it's where the majority of their funding comes from. Australia and Britain support robust--and independent--public broadcasters from the public purse.

And of course, there's health care. In the USA, preserving your freedom of choice in a free market system often results in no choice at all. 20% of the population without health insurance? And a good half of the rest trapped in greedy HMOs? Give me socialized medicine any day.

And let me assure you, both systems, for all their faults, perform coronary bypasses on any smoker who needs one. What they don't do is allow you to by six pairs of fashion eyeglasses and facelifts out of your FSA. In fact, it's the current US HMO system that refuses bypassses to smokers, or insurance coverage to the fat, old or genetically unfortunate. The only people who qualify for so-called Cadillac care in the USA are healthy enough not to need it.

The thing that makes health insurance affordable is that everyone participates, and the risk is spread. Not the denial of services.

In fact, the absence of national health insurance is the real brake on the creation of wealth--just ask Ford and General Motors.

There are some areas where, frankly, money in private hands works against the common good. Market forces simply DO NOT WORK when it comes to health care. You're never really in a position to exercise informed choice--you can't really tell the ambulance driver to take you to a cheaper hospital, can you?

The Australian state of Victoria embarked on a massive program of putting public assets into private hands--railways, gas, electricity, even public transport. Guess what? Service standards went down, and costs went up. None of the private companies involved are willing to invest in infrastructure, and the government ends up footing the bill for much of it with sweetheart deals or direct subsidies.

Co-operation, rather than competition, makes sense in many areas of the economy. Often, the instrument of co-operation must be the government. That means paying higher taxes to save money in the long run.

Few of us think of welfare as an investment rather than an expense. But read Freakanomics for a sobering account of what a tremendously astute investment welfare is.

But so much US welfare is in the hands of private charity--and let me knife a sacred cow here. Charities are disparate, inefficient, often self-interested institutions with ideological axes to grind. The rich in the USA use charity as a kiss-off that allows them to plunder the working and middle classes with a clear conscience. I hope that those who have boasted of their charitable donations on this thread have done so wisely and compassionately.

Personally, I think that the most handsomely supported charities in the USA are Halliburton and the oil companies. But this corporate charity seems to go unnoticed.

Frankly, I think that the USA has a long way to go before taxes become a "bad". So my personal answer to your question, Wyld GC, is that taxes are actually a pretty good thing. As a corporate animal myself, I know that both the companies I work for, and myself personally, are much better able to make money in a community that's healthy, well-educated, and well-fed.

Making money by squeezing an embattled middle class (as the rich seem to be doing now) shows a decent short-term return, but is a crummy investment in the long run.

The largest investments must be funded from the public purse; because these investments must be patient ones, and because the return is diffuse rather than direct. INterestingly, Asian economies, which we often picture as ruthless and hard driven, are sources of extremely patient capital. And they hold quite large reserves of social capital.

Sorry to ramble. It's late.

HB8
 

transformer_99

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Eliminate taxes and watch the wolves move in on that loot, many complain that your taxes are too high, Bush cut them in many areas, then gas, rent, healthcare went thru the roof. even look at the price of homes. To me taxes have a check and balance effect on inflation, it taints what someone is ready to gouge you for, especially if the buyer can't afford the inflated prices and the seller doesn't want to pay, you guessed it, the taxes on a capital gain or whatever.

In the fall of 2001, I was one of many Americans that received a $ 300 rebate. When it was announced in the spring of 2001, gasoline prices spiked, my rent went up, auto insurance for no accidents and tickets spiked. And you guessed it, after accounting for every little ding and gouge, my $ 300 was already spent before the check was cut. This was within a month after the announcement was made, that I was in deficit mode on that $ 300 tax rebate. Prices stabilized and dropped back a little, then the checks started arriving and those same wolves knew each of us had $ 300 to our names. Preying on the time elapsed from May to Aug/Sept 2001, prices surged again, same wolves preying on the fact we all had $ 300 in our hot little hands.

My brother complained his property taxes increased a year or so ago. My questions, What took the county government so long to inflate that tax ? The other question, when the price of his home was tripling, he wasn't complaining about that appreciation ? For the most part local governments ignored the inflated housing market and property flipping, it was great for the economy. But now I ask another question, the jobs in my community do not allow for a $ 40-50K salary to afford a mortgage on the median price of a $ 345K house (today, that was well over $ 400K not very long ago.). Notice how raising taxes has slowed an insane housing market. Mortgage foreclosure are setting records, the hangover may even get as bad as the S&L crisis of the 1980's, which incidentally a Bush was in charge during those years, even was a part of it (Silverado). Anyhow, it's noble to spend the money and put it in the pocket of other's, eventually it's taxed as income to someone, or laundered down in the exchanges until it becomes unclear how much ever came of it.

And for the record, the economy has been better. You can tell me the S&P is above 13K, but that was also after 8 million were laid off over the last 6-7 years, after it dropped to 7.5K from close to 13K under Clinton. And I'll remind you that gasoline is up from $ 1.39 to $ 3.00 under Bush, a $ 100K house when Clinton was in office, is now $ 280-330K. And in the meantime, the majority of us got a few extra bucks each week to curb the gouge on fuel. McDonald's you say, under Clinton, $ 2.12 was a egg mcmuffin breakfast combo. Today, that's closer to $ 4. And you'd also have to look at where we took a lot of jobs, offshore to avoid taxes, Haliburton is moving to Dubai, after Bush tried to sneak a port deal that was with England and the rights to those contracts sold off. As Americans we denegrate pollution and unfair labor practices, yet look where we went for our goods ? That's right, for decades the Chinese have been right next to Russia as the biggest threat to capitalism and democracy, yet communism is the first labor model we turn to to maximize profits. Apparently, communism does work, we just need to be ingenious about how we exploit it. Kathy Lee Gifford was chastised, yet Neil Bush is lauded over exploiting communist labor. Go figure ?
 
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headbang8

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If those figures are true then they reveal that a small slice of the nation's population controls a disproportionately large share of the nation's wealth. (and growing). This is not a recipe for long term social or economic stability when many everyday wage earners are working two or more jobs to break even.

Cake, anyone?
The top 2% of earners pay 38% of tax, because they hold 38% of the wealth...or is it closer to 50%? Anyone have the figures?

Nice cake, by the way.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Utter bullshit. My mother and I discussed this recently. Years ago, almost all employers offered health insurance. It was always part of the salary package. Due to rising costs many small businesses cannot afford to offer health insurance to their employees. Other businesses require employees to pay higher premiums. Blaming the problem on the American people is simply an avoidance measure.

Look at Scandinavia. They pay a shitload of taxes and everyone has health care. 80% is funded by the state and it's considered the best health care in the world. Oh, and get this - they pay special attention to the children and elderly, whom in the states often get the worst care. Their model of health care is something to aspire to, rather than ignore.

There is no way to compare Sweden to the US. Sweden has 9,000,000 people. Sweden isn't even the size of a large US state. Interestingly Sweden is right now beginning to re think their cradle to grave socialist state. Rich people are abandoning Sweden in droves. The founder of IKEA, gone. Abba, gone. Bjorn Borg, gone. There is a move afoot to reduce taxes and get people not to leave.

We spend more in real dollars on education than the Swedes if memory serves. We are 3rd in the world.

Your post is too simplistic and naive. Add 291,000,000 people and see how it works.
 

SpeedoGuy

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What took the county government so long to inflate that tax ? The other question, when the price of his home was tripling, he wasn't complaining about that appreciation ?

Agreed.

I just have to chuckle every time I hear my neighbors whining about being taxed to death. Scores of spankin' new $300,000 to $500,000 homes are being constructed in my neighborhood alone, there must be hundreds more going up in the county as a whole. And each of these new homes seems to come equipped with new cars, expensive boats, RVs or all three.

Yet each year these same homeowners wail and carry on about the crushing tax load they shoulder. "Being taxed into the poor house" is how some of them phrase it. The homeowners around here are so poor they recently voted down a small levy that would have kept the county library and Sheriff substation open on weekends.

Give me a break.
 
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surferboy

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speaking of housing...how the hell is someone my age supposed to get a place to live? i live in ft. lauderdale, and the prices of apartments alone are fuckin sky high. people have to get 2-3 roomies to get something decent (and by decent, i mean not ghetto). it's as if they don't want anyone my age to get a start in life.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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The top 2% of earners pay 38% of tax, because they hold 38% of the wealth...or is it closer to 50%? Anyone have the figures?

Nice cake, by the way.

Here you go:

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm

Remember the bottom of American wage earners pay no income tax. The threshold is $40000.

How would you change the distribution? Taxes won't work.The distributio is uneven and getting worse but how do you solve it?
 

Wyldgusechaz

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Agreed.

I just have to chuckle every time I hear my neighbors whining about being taxed to death. Scores of spankin' new $300,000 to $500,000 homes are being constructed in my neighborhood alone, there must be hundreds more going up in the county as a whole. And each of these new homes seems to come equipped with new cars, expensive boats, RVs or all three.

Yet each year these same homeowners wail and carry on about the crushing tax load they shoulder. "Being taxed into the poor house" is how some of them phrase it. The homeowners around here are so poor they recently voted down a small levy that would have kept the county library and Sheriff substation open on weekends.

Give me a break.

Are they bitching about income tax or property taxes?
 

Wyldgusechaz

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speaking of housing...how the hell is someone my age supposed to get a place to live? i live in ft. lauderdale, and the prices of apartments alone are fuckin sky high. people have to get 2-3 roomies to get something decent (and by decent, i mean not ghetto). it's as if they don't want anyone my age to get a start in life.

First off you live in a very desirable place. Move to Kansas or Nebraska and see.

Secondly mortgage insurance is deductible which is wrong. Too much value is held in housing. A complete waste. And it locks you out.

BTW London is incredibly bad now. Its insanely expensive in terms of housing.

Housing is a giant hi speed merry go round. Right now for you it is spinning so fast you can't jump on. Once you do tho everything slows down. Start running really fast by saving every spare cent you earn. And get very very well educated.
 

surferboy

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First off you live in a very desirable place. Move to Kansas or Nebraska and see.

i'm not gonna be landlocked. but still, why should i have to move because some rich asstards wanna move here? what about the people who like, were born and raised down here? i'm from long beach, socal, so it doesn't apply to me, but still. why should they have to move?
 

Wyldgusechaz

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i'm not gonna be landlocked. but still, why should i have to move because some rich asstards wanna move here? what about the people who like, were born and raised down here? i'm from long beach, socal, so it doesn't apply to me, but still. why should they have to move?
ii


I am from Hermosa Beach. Surfed all of SoCal down to Baja. Trestles, Zuma, Malibu, La Bufadora, Swamis. Huntington Beach Pier and the Wedge in Newport. I remember when you could buy a surf cottoge in Del Mar for $35K. Now its $3.5 million.

Supply and demand. Can't stop it.
 

surferboy

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Supply and demand. Can't stop it.

recently, there was a proposition to build condos near downtown ft. lauderdale for people who didn't make 3 figures a year, such as teachers and nurses. it was totally in demand. a lot of people voted for it. but the rich lobbyists or whatever they were got their way, and now they're building high end condos. so it's really not a "supply and demand" thing, it's more of a "i'm rich, let's fuck everyone else over."

and, truth be told, i come from money. i'd just rather not have anything to do with it because of people like that.