Tear Jerkers

[2322]

There are books written on Davis's acting ability. Hepburn won more Oscars and Falconetti gave the best performance on-screen, but Davis was capable of playing character and leading roles, something very rare in any actor or actress, and she was even able to combine them ever so seamlessly. In her youth, she was unafraid to take roles where she would be ugly, in her old age she was unafraid to play her age or even older. To her, the craft was what mattered. Most leading actors are always the same people inhabiting different roles. Not Davis. She could change herself so thoroughly into beautiful, ugly, intelligent, stupid, noble, or petty. Her range, was phenomenal. I don't think any other actress has had such a wide range of leading roles nor made each of them so believable.

She was so good that I can't say there's any single best Bette Davis movie. It's apples and oranges. I can say she has created some brilliant characters which endure to this day and that we think of Davis as her characters is a testament to her ability to make you forget she's Bette Davis in everything she does.

Garbo had mystery, Hepburn had star quality, Streep has finesse. Bette Davis is the finest actress ever to grace the American screen.

Watch this tribute. There are no lines in it so pay attention to Davis's deportment, makeup, expressions, and gestures. It's like you're watching different women with the same face.

Here's an equally good tribute to Davis by Meryl Streep.

And another with dialogue.

 

[2322]

Yes, that exact scene! Though, it's even more powerful if you watch the full film. Howard is nothing but good to her and is rewarded with that :frown1:.

Which is proof that you cannot buy love nor can you coerce or instill it. Of all the kinds of love in the world, unrequited love is the worst.

 

[Flashy]

Sorry to have messed it up a bit! Oh well, it's a great movie and a great scene. Thanks for the link. Her character is somehat unsympathetic, at least initially, but Mary Tyler Moore is astonishing!
Dave

i agree... i think she was really good...even in the end, i had no sympathy for her though...both Conrad and the father were right about her...

the scene where he goes to visit the therapist, for me, was very moving...it was his realization that he needed help...he had nowhere to turn, and giving the doctor a chance, helped him...you could see the relief in him.

this movie came out in 1980, when psychiatry was just starting to fully be embraced and de-stygmatized in mainstream culture, and this movie was hugely timely... IMO...you see the way her character deals with the psychiatry question...nobody is going to tell her about herself, and you can see her mother is just like that too, when they are washing the dishes...

she is cold and distant...and as he notes in the crying scene "we would have been alright...if there hadn't been in any mess"

it is such an amazing film

 

[2322]

I did have sympathy for Beth. It seemed to me that both she and Calvin had very different ideas about what love was and how it should be demonstrated. Beth is a woman burdened by expectations of social roles and is horribly aware that she failed in her role as a mother. Look at her explosion on the golf course when she goes off on her friends about how she failed to keep her kids safe, and despite what Conrad says, Calvin confirms that Beth did come to the hospital to visit him. As alienating as Beth may be, Conrad is jealous of her devotion to Buck. Beth sees Conrad as weak, and appears to blame him for Buck's death so she withdraws from him as he reminds her of her failure as a mother. She experiences Conrad's outright preference for Calvin as jealousy. She fears Conrad is manipulating Calvin and to some extent, he is. The more Conrad bonds to Calvin, the more Calvin feels alienation toward Beth and the more Beth retreats into the memory of Buck and the more isolated she feels in that home. When she packs to leave she has a realization that she's not only failed as a mother but as a wife too and has nobody to cling to. If she's going home to her parents, she won't find any sympathy there because we know what her mother's like. Beth is, in some ways, the scapegoat because she's the one person who has the most difficult time dealing with the fact that she hasn't been who she wanted to be. I think it's an accurate reflection of the time period as well when women judged themselves and other women by how good they were at being mothers, being wives, being entertainers, being dutiful daughters, serving everyone but themselves. That's the world in which Beth lives in upper middle class North Shore Chicago. She's acutely aware that there are appearances to uphold. It's easier for Calvin to ditch the appearances thing because he knows he won't be judged for them though he fails to realize that Beth will. So when Buck dies and Conrad tries to off himself, she's left reeling because the proof that she needs to know she's a good mother has evaporated. That's when she loses her compass and becomes, "cautious." Beth needs to be cautious because she doesn't want everything else to fall apart yet she doesn't have the tools to stop it so she starts spouting conventional wisdom about the hospital, the shrink (who she feels is separating Conrad and Calvin from her), her marriage, her relationship with Conrad ("Mothers don't hate their sons!"), and her desperate fear that she'll be blamed for everything -- which eventually, she is.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

Sorry to have messed it up a bit! Oh well, it's a great movie and a great scene. Thanks for the link. Her character is somehat unsympathetic, at least initially, but Mary Tyler Moore is astonishing!
Dave

i agree... i think she was really good...even in the end, i had no sympathy for her though...both Conrad and the father were right about her...

the scene where he goes to visit the therapist, for me, was very moving...it was his realization that he needed help...he had nowhere to turn, and giving the doctor a chance, helped him...you could see the relief in him.

this movie came out in 1980, when psychiatry was just starting to fully be embraced and de-stygmatized in mainstream culture, and this movie was hugely timely... IMO...you see the way her character deals with the psychiatry question...nobody is going to tell her about herself, and you can see her mother is just like that too, when they are washing the dishes...

she is cold and distant...and as he notes in the crying scene "we would have been alright...if there hadn't been in any mess"

it is such an amazing film

I did have sympathy for Beth. It seemed to me that both she and Calvin had very different ideas about what love was and how it should be demonstrated. Beth is a woman burdened by expectations of social roles and is horribly aware that she failed in her role as a mother. Look at her explosion on the golf course when she goes off on her friends about how she failed to keep her kids safe, and despite what Conrad says, Calvin confirms that Beth did come to the hospital to visit him. As alienating as Beth may be, Conrad is jealous of her devotion to Buck. Beth sees Conrad as weak, and appears to blame him for Buck's death so she withdraws from him as he reminds her of her failure as a mother. She experiences Conrad's outright preference for Calvin as jealousy. She fears Conrad is manipulating Calvin and to some extent, he is. The more Conrad bonds to Calvin, the more Calvin feels alienation toward Beth and the more Beth retreats into the memory of Buck and the more isolated she feels in that home. When she packs to leave she has a realization that she's not only failed as a mother but as a wife too and has nobody to cling to. If she's going home to her parents, she won't find any sympathy there because we know what her mother's like. Beth is, in some ways, the scapegoat because she's the one person who has the most difficult time dealing with the fact that she hasn't been who she wanted to be. I think it's an accurate reflection of the time period as well when women judged themselves and other women by how good they were at being mothers, being wives, being entertainers, being dutiful daughters, serving everyone but themselves. That's the world in which Beth lives in upper middle class North Shore Chicago. She's acutely aware that there are appearances to uphold. It's easier for Calvin to ditch the appearances thing because he knows he won't be judged for them though he fails to realize that Beth will. So when Buck dies and Conrad tries to off himself, she's left reeling because the proof that she needs to know she's a good mother has evaporated. That's when she loses her compass and becomes, "cautious." Beth needs to be cautious because she doesn't want everything else to fall apart yet she doesn't have the tools to stop it so she starts spouting conventional wisdom about the hospital, the shrink (who she feels is separating Conrad and Calvin from her), her marriage, her relationship with Conrad ("Mothers don't hate their sons!"), and her desperate fear that she'll be blamed for everything -- which eventually, she is.

I first saw this movie as a kid on pay TV. I didn't much care for it, and I completely sympathized with Conrad. I saw the mother as cruel and heartless, and the father as an inept pussy.

As an adult, I have completely changed my tune. It's my second-favorite movie (Cinema Paradiso being the best movie ever, of course).

As much as I sympathize for Conrad, the protagonist, I see Beth as the one most affected by Buck's death. She loved him more than a mother should love her son. She favored him. When he died in the accident, she blamed Conrad. If we could read her mind, we'd know that every time she looked at Conrad, she'd ask herself, "Why didn't you die instead of Buck?"

Everyone in the family had their place. Buck was the promising jock that the mother doted over. Conrad always lived under Buck's shadow; it was safe there. Calvin felt safe at work. Beth felt safe as a dutiful, cheerful suburban housewife. Conrad's suicide attempts were an embarrassment to Beth: upper-class families didn't have such problems, after all. In desperation, Beth and Calvin finally caved in and admitted to the problem and sent Conrad to a shrink. Shrinks are always great antagonists... for a lazy writer.

If one wants to see how a WASP family works, watch this movie. We don't talk about our problems. We remain strong and silent, even if it makes us a neurotic mess in the end. Beth simply went through the motions, somewhat robotically and quietly. She pretended to be a mother and wife, but she really didn't like her husband or her son. She continually rationalized her feelings. When the strain of the facade got to be too much, she would verbally affirm her actions: "Mothers don't hate their sons," was a reminder to herself more than anything.

Moore's acting was brilliant. The seemingly simple scene where Conrad idly mentions he made a 74 on a trigonometry quiz is an example. She gives him the polite, phlegmatic stare as if she were acknowledging a stranger while daydreaming. She paused as he talked, not caring, but knowing that it was her role, just as an autistic knows to say "thank you." Conrad is confused, but he has so many problems that he doesn't seem to notice her apathy.

Despite his distrust for the science, Calvin started to see the psychiatrist, which is predictable but expedited the plot. He finally came to terms with his situation: his wife's selfishness and aloofness is destroying their whole family. When they visit her brother's house, his feelings well out of him, to which she replies with a sympathetic soliloquy about her inability to be happy after Buck's death.

Both Calvin and Beth come to realize that Beth wasn't capable of loving them. I regarded her departure at the end of the movie to be a happy moment. It was best for everyone: Calvin loved Conrad and Beth could start fresh. The rivalry between Beth and Conrad was over.

The Calvin's love for his son was always there, but not articulated until after Beth left. The three-way emotional standoff was over, and they felt safe enough to be honest. Conrad was never too self-piteous, always looking for a way out of his misery, grasping on to the things that worked, letting go of the ones that didn't. When at the climax of the film Conrad told the doctor, "I held on," he became the unheralded hero. Beth might be seen as the villian, but she had the courage to accept her fate and take action.

From the start of the movie we saw three characters try to deal with a crisis with an opportunity to look within and find tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. Only two of them succeeded. Beth's failure to do so, and thus her failure as a mother, was the ultimate tragedy of the film.

 

[Flashy]

I did have sympathy for Beth. It seemed to me that both she and Calvin had very different ideas about what love was and how it should be demonstrated. Beth is a woman burdened by expectations of social roles and is horribly aware that she failed in her role as a mother. Look at her explosion on the golf course when she goes off on her friends about how she failed to keep her kids safe, and despite what Conrad says, Calvin confirms that Beth did come to the hospital to visit him. As alienating as Beth may be, Conrad is jealous of her devotion to Buck. Beth sees Conrad as weak, and appears to blame him for Buck's death so she withdraws from him as he reminds her of her failure as a mother. She experiences Conrad's outright preference for Calvin as jealousy. She fears Conrad is manipulating Calvin and to some extent, he is. The more Conrad bonds to Calvin, the more Calvin feels alienation toward Beth and the more Beth retreats into the memory of Buck and the more isolated she feels in that home. When she packs to leave she has a realization that she's not only failed as a mother but as a wife too and has nobody to cling to. If she's going home to her parents, she won't find any sympathy there because we know what her mother's like. Beth is, in some ways, the scapegoat because she's the one person who has the most difficult time dealing with the fact that she hasn't been who she wanted to be. I think it's an accurate reflection of the time period as well when women judged themselves and other women by how good they were at being mothers, being wives, being entertainers, being dutiful daughters, serving everyone but themselves. That's the world in which Beth lives in upper middle class North Shore Chicago. She's acutely aware that there are appearances to uphold. It's easier for Calvin to ditch the appearances thing because he knows he won't be judged for them though he fails to realize that Beth will. So when Buck dies and Conrad tries to off himself, she's left reeling because the proof that she needs to know she's a good mother has evaporated. That's when she loses her compass and becomes, "cautious." Beth needs to be cautious because she doesn't want everything else to fall apart yet she doesn't have the tools to stop it so she starts spouting conventional wisdom about the hospital, the shrink (who she feels is separating Conrad and Calvin from her), her marriage, her relationship with Conrad ("Mothers don't hate their sons!"), and her desperate fear that she'll be blamed for everything -- which eventually, she is.

while i agree that she was forced into the roles dictated by a different time period, if she was truly loving and caring and concerned about the family, she would have joined.

you can tell she was from a ridiuclously old fashioned family because of the below clip, where her father, calls his wife "mother"...but also look at her total discomfort and even dislike of Connie (the photo scene)

YouTube - Ordinary People - Clip Chapter 6 1980

she was less concerned about the family from an emotional standpoint, and more concerned with it from the standpoint of how she appeared to be to others as a result of the family...i.e., the cocktail party scene, where the woman who was friends with the family is talking to Calvin while sitting on the steps and she asks him how connie is doing, and Calvin reveals he is doing great, seeing a doctor, etc...and beth goes nuts about it...because she is concerned not about connie or calvin, but how it reflects on her...

also, jase, you are in error...beth never goes to visit connie in the hospital.
we are made to know that in the scene where she accuses him of "lying" to her about the swim team....Calvin has got the tchristmas tree, then Connie comes in...a moment later, Beth walks in the front door, arriving home...they squabble and beth complains that she found out about quitting the swim team from Carol Lazenby...and it is not the fact that he quit that she is angry about it is that she was embarassed about it because as she sai "poor beth doesn't have a clue...her son lies to her all the time and she believes him"


they continue squabbling and Connie says
"She never came to the hospital...because she's too busy going
to goddamn Spain and Portugal! She doesn't care if I'm hung up
by the balls out there."

Beth says
"They may talk like this at the hospital...but we're not at the hospital."


Connie says
"You never came to the hospital!"

Calvin says
" Now connie, your mother had the flu and couldn't come inside."

(flashy note: Connie was in the hospital for *8 MONTHS* between the flue and the trips to spain and portugal, couldn't she have come in once?)

Connie says
"She would've visited Buck in the hospital!"

Beth Says
"Buck never would've been in the hospital!"

the explosion on the golf course, also has several very important points...listen to what she says about why she can't just "love" people "i cannot respond when someone says 'here, i just did this great thing, love me'"

in the very next scene, they are home the 1st night, Connie goes to giver her a hug when they return from Houston, he says "I'm glad you're back" she does not even respond...he hugs her...she is cold as ice...doesn't even move. does'nt reciprocate the hug...says nothing...Connie holds her for a couple of seconds, then goes upstairs to bed...Calvin watches it all...she knows that Calvin saw it...and she turns her head in shame from him.

i have posted a link below which shows the golf course explosion and then when they have returned in the very next scene, which just about says it all...

YouTube - Teed Off


she is cold and distant...as the shrink said "Don't blame her for not loving you more than she's able"

she absolutely loved Buck more than Conrad...he was her first born, he was super handsome, cool, etc...



while i agree with many of your contentions of the pain she was going through, she has and has always witheld her love for Calivn and Connie...devoting it all to Buck...listen to what she says to Calvin when he is sitting at the table crying in the penultimate scene Calvin, clearly distraught says "Do you love me? I mean really love me?" and her words? "I feel the way i've always felt about you".

she is trapped inside her own coldness and distance (and yes, as you pointed out, maybe she married for status/comfort/stability/role) but still, with Buck gone, she has nothing to give either of them...but ultimately, i do agree with some of your sentiments just in a different way in regards to her being so tied in to a life of forced societal "identity"...as Calvin says in the penultimate scene "maybe it wasn't even Buck...maybe it was just you...maybe, finally...it was just the best of you that you buried" and then he finishes the monologue...she says nothing, cold, she turns and just goes back upstairs and starts to pack...it is then, only then that she seems to show any sense of emotion either than anger and indignance, IMO

(the first little bit is the hug scene)

YouTube - Ordinary People -" I don't know if I love you anymore"

i think you haven't seen the flick in a long time...Jase...a rewatch may be in order :wink: (and well worth it...i will watch it whenever it is on. no matter what

 

[Flashy]

I first saw this movie as a kid on pay TV. I didn't much care for it, and I completely sympathized with Conrad. I saw the mother as cruel and heartless, and the father as an inept pussy.

As an adult, I have completely changed my tune. It's my second-favorite movie

another bizarre case of you and i being apparently separated at birth :wink:

 

[Flashy]

As much as I sympathize for Conrad, the protagonist, I see Beth as the one most affected by Buck's death. She loved him more than a mother should love her son. She favored him. When he died in the accident, she blamed Conrad. If we could read her mind, we'd know that every time she looked at Conrad, she'd ask herself, "Why didn't you die instead of Buck?"

Everyone in the family had their place. Buck was the promising jock that the mother doted over. Conrad always lived under Buck's shadow; it was safe there. Calvin felt safe at work. Beth felt safe as a dutiful, cheerful suburban housewife. Conrad's suicide attempts were an embarrassment to Beth: upper-class families didn't have such problems, after all. In desperation, Beth and Calvin finally caved in and admitted to the problem and sent Conrad to a shrink. Shrinks are always great antagonists... for a lazy writer.

If one wants to see how a WASP family works, watch this movie. We don't talk about our problems. We remain strong and silent, even if it makes us a neurotic mess in the end. Beth simply went through the motions, somewhat robotically and quietly. She pretended to be a mother and wife, but she really didn't like her husband or her son. She continually rationalized her feelings. When the strain of the facade got to be too much, she would verbally affirm her actions: "Mothers don't hate their sons," was a reminder to herself more than anything.

Moore's acting was brilliant. The seemingly simple scene where Conrad idly mentions he made a 74 on a trigonometry quiz is an example. She gives him the polite, phlegmatic stare as if she were acknowledging a stranger while daydreaming. She paused as he talked, not caring, but knowing that it was her role, just as an autistic knows to say "thank you." Conrad is confused, but he has so many problems that he doesn't seem to notice her apathy.

Despite his distrust for the science, Calvin started to see the psychiatrist, which is predictable but expedited the plot. He finally came to terms with his situation: his wife's selfishness and aloofness is destroying their whole family. When they visit her brother's house, his feelings well out of him, to which she replies with a sympathetic soliloquy about her inability to be happy after Buck's death.

Both Calvin and Beth come to realize that Beth wasn't capable of loving them. I regarded her departure at the end of the movie to be a happy moment. It was best for everyone: Calvin loved Conrad and Beth could start fresh. The rivalry between Beth and Conrad was over.

The Calvin's love for his son was always there, but not articulated until after Beth left. The three-way emotional standoff was over, and they felt safe enough to be honest. Conrad was never too self-piteous, always looking for a way out of his misery, grasping on to the things that worked, letting go of the ones that didn't. When at the climax of the film Conrad told the doctor, "I held on," he became the unheralded hero. Beth might be seen as the villian, but she had the courage to accept her fate and take action.

From the start of the movie we saw three characters try to deal with a crisis with an opportunity to look within and find tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. Only two of them succeeded. Beth's failure to do so, and thus her failure as a mother, was the ultimate tragedy of the film.

a very good review, and my thoughts exactly about the movie...

i have always believed that in a short "part 2" or conclusion to these characters lives, Beth would go and remarry, ostensibly someone older, perhaps with grown children. a well to do, or at least respectable professional, preferably with grown children, where little effort, other than a social front, and some shared interests would be necessary...a relationship that required only amicability and the appearance of outwards happiness. trapped forever....likely with no relationship ever again with Conrad as he grew up.

I believed Conrad and Calvin would come out of it okay in the long run. Conrad would have another year of school, would find himself in terms of things he loved doing (choir, instead of swim etc.) would find his first love, and the first woman to truly love him for him (the Elizabeth Perkins character, who was lovely, and she was so cute in that movie) maybe they would be sweethearts, and go on to marry, but i think that would be unlikely, since both would go off to college, but i think ultimately, Conrad would turn out to be well adjusted, because he was very self reliant in the first place, as was made known because Calvin never "rode him the way he did for Buck" and Calvin said (He needed it, you didn't./..you always put so much pressure on yourself i didn't have the heart)

i think Connie would havee turned out fine, and likely, maybe made a couple of attempts to reach out to his mom, who likely would never change, would not seek therapy etc. ever, and there would be no discernible relationship, and likely little contact if any.

Calvin, i think would have remarried soon or at least within a 5 year time frame, and a totally opposite woman...he was a good, decent, caring man...he really had genuinely loved beth and he was a caring, loving and good father. i think this time he would have truly sought someone different, passionate, open (likely alot younger...hell he was a highly successful tax attorney, in 1979...the 80s were coming, he was already well off, and probably would have made a killing in the 80s)

he'd pay Beth alimony, but that would not last long, cause she'd remarry...they'd sell the house in the early 80s when the real estate market was good, and split the proceeds in the divorce...he'd move to a nice luxury apartment in Chicago, he'd have no wife to support, no kids to feed (connie's college though) and he'd be on a mid six figure salary as the go-go 80s started...he'd get big tax cuts, find a hot younger wife, they'd have fun for a few years, and maybe then he'd have another child with her.

that's my take. :wink:

 

[elegant20]

Some of the tearjerkers you mention I still get teary-eye to this day.:frown1: Most of them you listed so far.

 

[2322]

You're right. I haven't seen it in a while. I should watch it again. Interesting how we recall two different sides to Beth.

In the hug scene I see Conrad making an attempt to hug Beth when he knows she isn't going to go for it given their recent argument. I think he's doing it to show his father he's trying to be the dutiful son loving his mother and Conrad knows that she won't play along. I don't think she turns her head in shame so much as disgust for his obvious attempt to demonize her.

In the camera scene Conrad is just as reluctant to be near Beth as she is reluctant to be near him. Notice that it's Calvin who wants the picture. He's playing a game, testing Beth to see what her reaction will be but the person who finally explodes is Conrad who is angry and keeps his arms crossed the entire time. Beth is cool, Conrad is furious.

In the golf scene, same deal. Beth is angry that Calvin only responds to Conrad. She doesn't understand what Conrad's emotional needs are and is angry that Calvin does so she accuses Calvin of being a tool of Conrad. I think Calvin genuinely wants to help his son and Conrad genuinely wants help. I think Conrad wants love too, but he makes no attempt to understand his mother's position. Both men are demanding things of Beth that she's unable to give them and they become as angry and distant to her as she is to them rather than trying to understand her position and help her deal with her loss. Listen to Calvin's line just before Beth makes her famous line, "All he wants to know is that you don't hate him." That's up there with, "Senator, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" There's no way she can answer such a loaded, antagonistic, question. I think it's understandable that Beth is shocked to hear such a thing because I don't believe she hates Conrad as much as doesn't know how to love him in the way Conrad is demanding of her. I could go feminist here and state this is typical male patriarchal demonizing of females who do not constantly give of themselves in the way that males demand. As she says, "Do you see how you accept what he says with no questions and you can't do the same thing to me?," and then she explodes with frustration, "God I don't know what anyone wants from me any more!" For Beth, whatever she gives is rejected. She turns to Ward, who said that all anybody wants is for Beth's family to be happy and says that he better make sure his kids are safe. She's near tears here because she's admitting that she didn't make sure her kids are safe. She's already blamed herself and right there, Calvin makes no attempt to empathize with her at all. He shrugs, looks down, and then follows her off screen. Right from there we go to the hugging scene where Beth has to be reminded that Conrad thinks she hates him and she's being framed as the villain.

I see that final scene you linked as Beth being finally forced out of the family. Calvin's sided entirely with Conrad and Beth is left alone. She asks him if she can get him anything, asks why he's crying, and does so cautiously, as Calvin says, because she doesn't want to alienate anyone any more than they already are. She's trying to do what she feels she should do but doesn't.

I can't believe Beth has always been like this and I think that line about burying the best of her with Buck is true. I suspect Beth has only been cool and distant since Buck's death. Calvin is the kind of man who needs an affectionate wife, needs sex, needs love and honesty. He may not have needed it as much as he needs it now, and just at that point, Beth is unable to respond. As I see it, everyone is allowed to grieve and work through their grief except Beth. Why doesn't Calvin ask Beth what he can do to help her? Why doesn't Calvin enjoin Conrad to do the same? Calvin must know he married a woman who was concerned about being a good wife, a good mother, and presenting a public image of a happy perfect family. How is it he can't realize, particularly after her golf course explosion, that Beth is blaming herself for Buck's death as much as she's come to blame Conrad? As rex pointed out, this is how WASPs behave and Beth is the prototypical WASP wife and then he blames her for being cool and cautious when that's the woman he's been married to for how many years?

I'm very sympathetic to everyone in this film. To me it's just one huge tragedy for everyone even if we see Calvin and Conrad happy in the moment that Beth leaves at the end. Yes Beth left and they're happy but what does that mean for the family in the days and years to come? It's odd but true that when a child dies, the parents most often divorce soon afterward because they tend to secretly scapegoat the other spouse and it leads to what the courts call, "irreconcilable differences." In this case, Calvin and Conrad blame Beth while Beth blames Conrad and comes to blame Calvin as well as he comes to see things Conrad's way while neither of them make an attempt to reconcile with Beth or allow Beth to work through her grief her way.

Still though, I do need to see it again. I'm sure I'll get something new out of it and perhaps my interpretation will change. Thanks for writing that post. It really made me think.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

Sophie's Choice

I recorded the fist part of this video the day after I met you. Coincidence?

To Stingo! Now where's Whitman?

 

[flame boy]

Two movies have made me cry.

Monster with Charlise Theron playing Aileen Wuornos and Brokeback Mountain. Also, randomly, an epiosode of Doctor Who (new series) when Rose first left the Doctor really had be balling.

 

[Penis Aficionado]

Funny this thread is so active right now -- I practically couldn't stop crying earlier today, and I was just flipping through channels. First I just randomly clicked onto the scene in LOTR when Eowyn kills the nazgul while trying to protect her father -- that one always gets me. Then during the commerical I change the channel and there's the episode of NCIS where Kate gets killed, and that made Abby cry, and for personal reasons I really, really love Abby on NCIS and I get emotional when she's sad.

But hey, I'm just a mess!

 

[Flashy]

You're right. I haven't seen it in a while. I should watch it again. Interesting how we recall two different sides to Beth.

In the hug scene I see Conrad making an attempt to hug Beth when he knows she isn't going to go for it given their recent argument. I think he's doing it to show his father he's trying to be the dutiful son loving his mother and Conrad knows that she won't play along. I don't think she turns her head in shame so much as disgust for his obvious attempt to demonize her.

In the camera scene Conrad is just as reluctant to be near Beth as she is reluctant to be near him. Notice that it's Calvin who wants the picture. He's playing a game, testing Beth to see what her reaction will be but the person who finally explodes is Conrad who is angry and keeps his arms crossed the entire time. Beth is cool, Conrad is furious.

In the golf scene, same deal. Beth is angry that Calvin only responds to Conrad. She doesn't understand what Conrad's emotional needs are and is angry that Calvin does so she accuses Calvin of being a tool of Conrad. I think Calvin genuinely wants to help his son and Conrad genuinely wants help. I think Conrad wants love too, but he makes no attempt to understand his mother's position. Both men are demanding things of Beth that she's unable to give them and they become as angry and distant to her as she is to them rather than trying to understand her position and help her deal with her loss. Listen to Calvin's line just before Beth makes her famous line, "All he wants to know is that you don't hate him." That's up there with, "Senator, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" There's no way she can answer such a loaded, antagonistic, question. I think it's understandable that Beth is shocked to hear such a thing because I don't believe she hates Conrad as much as doesn't know how to love him in the way Conrad is demanding of her. I could go feminist here and state this is typical male patriarchal demonizing of females who do not constantly give of themselves in the way that males demand. As she says, "Do you see how you accept what he says with no questions and you can't do the same thing to me?," and then she explodes with frustration, "God I don't know what anyone wants from me any more!" For Beth, whatever she gives is rejected. She turns to Ward, who said that all anybody wants is for Beth's family to be happy and says that he better make sure his kids are safe. She's near tears here because she's admitting that she didn't make sure her kids are safe. She's already blamed herself and right there, Calvin makes no attempt to empathize with her at all. He shrugs, looks down, and then follows her off screen. Right from there we go to the hugging scene where Beth has to be reminded that Conrad thinks she hates him and she's being framed as the villain.

I see that final scene you linked as Beth being finally forced out of the family. Calvin's sided entirely with Conrad and Beth is left alone. She asks him if she can get him anything, asks why he's crying, and does so cautiously, as Calvin says, because she doesn't want to alienate anyone any more than they already are. She's trying to do what she feels she should do but doesn't.

I can't believe Beth has always been like this and I think that line about burying the best of her with Buck is true. I suspect Beth has only been cool and distant since Buck's death. Calvin is the kind of man who needs an affectionate wife, needs sex, needs love and honesty. He may not have needed it as much as he needs it now, and just at that point, Beth is unable to respond. As I see it, everyone is allowed to grieve and work through their grief except Beth. Why doesn't Calvin ask Beth what he can do to help her? Why doesn't Calvin enjoin Conrad to do the same? Calvin must know he married a woman who was concerned about being a good wife, a good mother, and presenting a public image of a happy perfect family. How is it he can't realize, particularly after her golf course explosion, that Beth is blaming herself for Buck's death as much as she's come to blame Conrad? As rex pointed out, this is how WASPs behave and Beth is the prototypical WASP wife and then he blames her for being cool and cautious when that's the woman he's been married to for how many years?

I'm very sympathetic to everyone in this film. To me it's just one huge tragedy for everyone even if we see Calvin and Conrad happy in the moment that Beth leaves at the end. Yes Beth left and they're happy but what does that mean for the family in the days and years to come? It's odd but true that when a child dies, the parents most often divorce soon afterward because they tend to secretly scapegoat the other spouse and it leads to what the courts call, "irreconcilable differences." In this case, Calvin and Conrad blame Beth while Beth blames Conrad and comes to blame Calvin as well as he comes to see things Conrad's way while neither of them make an attempt to reconcile with Beth or allow Beth to work through her grief her way.

Still though, I do need to see it again. I'm sure I'll get something new out of it and perhaps my interpretation will change. Thanks for writing that post. It really made me think.

no prob jase...as always, i enjoy your views...but i think with a rewatch you may see some things you might not recall on first viewing...when i first saw this film i was very young much like rex was... i wasnot paying attention and did not even finish it...then i saw it again when i was 23-24 and was really hit hard by it.

as for the "hug" scene.there is one very important thing you are not recalling (i believe because of the time since last viewing) the hug scene comes right before Calvin is crying, so it is the 3rd to last scene, and it is rather short.

if you notice, for the first time in the whole film, aside from when he is with Elizabeth Perkins, he is truly at ease, smiling...why? because while the parents were in Houston, Connie had the "breakthrough"...remember, he was feeling terribly isolated, he had gone out on the date with Elizabeth Perkins to McDonald's (of all places) and they had gone bowling...and it ended badly, when the guys came in singing, and made them both uncomfortable...after the date, he goes hom and is so upset, so he calls Karen (the friend from the hospital who he had met briefly for coffee) she was the one who said "let's have the best year ever...we can you know") anyway he callse her house, and her parents tell him that Karen had just killed herself...he freaks out and runs through the night and calls Dr. Berger in the middle of the night, who comes and meets him at the office...and that is big scene where conrad realizes he has to forgive himself, etc...(the big cathartic moment) that is why in the hug scene when Calvin asks him "are you tired?" he says "yeah, it's been kind of a tough week" and Calvin not knowing the events of Karen's suicide and Connie's realization, simply chalks it up to his grandma being "tough on him"...Conrad genuinely positive and upbeat for the first time in awhile...even with this hugely positive moment, he goes right to his mom, genuinely trying to make some kind of outreach...to touch her, see her smile, maybe she would hug him back, and give him a goodnight kiss...you can see in the background, she lifts her left hand up when he hugs her (look carefully) i think it was intended as an "i am not sure which she meant" moment...you cannot tell if it is to possibly try to hug him, or to possibly try to push him away...either way, she does nothing, she can do neither...she is an emotional cripple, but also, look at what she does when she raises the hand...in that moment, you can see that she seems to be about to hug him, but she rolls her eyes in a way that almost says "snap out of it!" and stops her hand from moving further...i believe this was really great acting...her maternal instinct was to reciprocate...but all the things that she has covered her love and self over with seem to say "don't!"

i have always found that to be one of the most particularly interesting parts of it. it is in that moment when Calvin has his final realization,(and who knows, he may have seen Berger a couple of times already, and really examined things, (also, cut from the clip i posted is the scene on the airplane, where they are coming back from Houston...they don't actually say anything, she is just sitting there, reading, and Calvin is staring at her...just trying to figure out what he is feeling about her)


iget a different feeling from the photo session scene than you do. Indeed, i agree it is Calvin who wants the picture. but as he said later in Houston "I am trying to keep this family together!!!" i do not believe he was genuinely testing her.i believe he wanted to move them together literally & figuratively & subconsciously...he said "i really want a picture with Connie and his momn". at first, Connie is amenable but look at her she can't even look at him.he keeps trying moving towards her, moving away at first when she complains & moves even further as she continues to try to avoid taking the picture in an overly obvious way to Connie, but that Calvin cannot even see .at first, Connie even moves in close as they get set, Calvin says "smile" and for the first time, connie really gives a big smile and she still has not even looked at connie & moves foward, openly demanding the camera, and you can see her sort of bump connie aside almost. she cannot even stand next to him, so she moves forward so as not even to have him in her peripheryy almost.it is really rather upsetting to me to see that. then connie finally explodes.also Connie's arms are folded in every picture taken (methinks it is a very subtle use of body language, implying protection, i.e. arms open = receptive, arms crossed = closed and fearful)

 

[Flashy]

(cont)


can't really agree on the demonization part in the hug...after all, this womans problem is refusess to discuss or talk about anything...to open up, to all talk...she refuses all rational requests and entreaties...calvin asks her to talk with Berger with Connie and with him because it would begood, but she turns him down flat, twice...also, after his first talk with berger Calvin is sitting in his car in the garage at home...he won't get out of hte car because he i n deep thought...she comesout and asks him what he is doing in there...he relates a story to her about Buck's funeral...and how when he was getting dressed for buck's funeral, he put on a blue shirt, and she criticized him and said, "wear the white shirt with those shoes"...and he said "I was crazy that day...we were going to our sons funeral...what difference did it make what i wore on my feet?" she said "i don't want to talk about it" etc. etc. why would you want to remind of that? and he just wanted to understand.
she refused all attempts to help, talk, get through, support or even deal with both others and herself. she just locked everything up.

in the beginning he wants to help her set the table, she tells him to go upstaris and clean his closet cause "it's really a mess", then the phone rings, she turns his back on him and ignores him.

you can see it when she is talkin to her mother when they are doing the dishes in the scene right after the photo scene..she accidentally breaks a dish, total denial, everything she says is an attack on him "people don't want to be with him...he provokes people" "I think he should go away to school, i can'tdeal with him"

also, calvin is not testing her in that way with the photo because this particular scene pre-dates his visit to Berger to start talking and shedding light etc...

it is intersting that he notes to berger in their first meeting that it's connie and his mom are alike, not beth and buck...and he says that "they were the only two who did not cry at buck's funeral"

and finally towards the end right before the trip to houston for the holidays, cal and beth have lunch, and he says that he wants them all to go see berger together and he says "wouldn't it be easier if we all talked about it?" she replies "what will we talk about? Don't try to change me calvin...hasn't enough happened? let's hold on to what we've got."
Calvin says "that;s what this is for...maybe you'll be surprised"
she says "I don't want anymore surprises...i know i'm not perfect... if i can't hug everybody like you do, i'm sorry" she then goes on to say we are not going to see counselors, we will solve this problem in the privacy of our own home, this is my family etc etc....she then says "I know you mean well...i want this to be a nice christmas"...and he says "i want them all to be nice" she then goes immediately to trying to get away from conrad..."You and i need time together...we must get away".

anyhoo, it is probably best you just see it again, then wwe'll revisit :biggrin1::wink:

my opinions change alot between my 2nd and 3rd viewing of it.

 

[Dave NoCal]

Wow! What great analysis. I've probably seen it 15-20 as I use it as a teaching tool about family dynamics. You guys have give me so much to work with. Thanks.
My view has been sort of a mix of both Jason's and Rex/Flashy's points of view. My take is that Buck's death injured her in profound ways. And while she always preferred him, maybe as an example of how she would like to be (open, gregarious, real), she probabaly did alright as a mother and wife. I do think she blamed Conrad and in her deepest, denied truth felt the wrong child died. In the hug scene, I agree with Flashy that Conrad's overture was genuine and I think Beth's response was one of shock because Conrad had dropped the playbook and she did not know how to respond. I do think his overture exposes her incredible level of impariment, which shocks Calvin.
Later. Gotta get ready for work.
Dave

 

[Deno]

The first movie ever to make me cry was Steel Magnolias but my mom passed away shortly before that so I think that had a lot to do with it. Other movies would be Marly and Me, Green Plaid Shirt, The Trip, almost any movie with Emile Hersh or Jamie Bell in it, Little Boy Blue, Object of my Affection. Just to name a few. I just watched Adam and Steve again last night and I tear up every time I hear him sing at the end of the movie. I can't rate these movies cuz I cry every time something sad happens or somethign happy happens. I should be on stronger meds,lol.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

another bizarre case of you and i being apparently separated at birth :wink:

Which of us is the evil one?

Wow! What great analysis. I've probably seen it 15-20 as I use it as a teaching tool about family dynamics. You guys have give me so much to work with. Thanks.
My view has been sort of a mix of both Jason's and Rex/Flashy's points of view. My take is that Buck's death injured her in profound ways. And while she always preferred him, maybe as an example of how she would like to be (open, gregarious, real), she probabaly did alright as a mother and wife. I do think she blamed Conrad and in her deepest, denied truth felt the wrong child died. In the hug scene, I agree with Flashy that Conrad's overture was genuine and I think Beth's response was one of shock because Conrad had dropped the playbook and she did not know how to respond. I do think his overture exposes her incredible level of impariment, which shocks Calvin.
Later. Gotta get ready for work.
Dave

Work? Priorities, please!

I suppose that you could dissect a movie ad nauseam, but Jason and Flashy have noticed allegory that I have missed, despite seeing the movie several times. I think that I might be biased because I saw it as a kid and demonized the mother from the start. I need to watch it again with a clear, open mind.

I find it poignant Beth barely says 40 words to Conrad in that a movie is supposedly about the relationship between a mother and son. The characters around them develop their relationship instead, and they both have their quasi-cathartic moments... but both too late.

One thing that I certainly didn't notice was Conrad's manipulation of Beth. I will look for that in particular. I don't recall him even being aware of her repressed contempt for him, but I do recall the rivalry for Calvin's attention--the small amount that he was capable of offering. Maybe Conrad wasn't as naive as I thought.

 

[2322]

If Conrad didn't suspect his mother didn't like him, why would he have told his father he suspects that his mother hates him? Where else would Calvin get such an idea?

As to the hospital visit thing, that may be an editing error. If you look at the trailer on YouTube, during the argument Calvin defends Beth. At 1:14 Calvin says to Conrad, "Your mother DID come to the hospital..." The subtitles, unless my hearing is off (and it may be), say, "I DID come to the hospital...," which makes them wrong. Perhaps the scene was reshot with the line changed? It wouldn't make sense for us to hear Calvin say, "I DID come to the hopsital..." and then have the next shot be on Beth, which it is. She whirls around at hearing Conrad deny that they came to the hospital. We're watching Calvin defends Beth in this instance. If you have the movie, could you check the scene to see if it's the same as in the trailer?

 

[superbot]

Also forgot 'Waterloo Bridge'. Another 3 or 4 hankie film.

More like 72 hankies!( Hope you mean the Leigh/Taylor version?!)...