D_Gunther Snotpole
Account Disabled
I've always instinctively assumed all this, hil ... but it's good to hear someone say so.
Thank God for Patrick
- Thread starter B_Hickboy
- Start date
I've always instinctively assumed all this, hil ... but it's good to hear someone say so.
Interestingly (depending on your definition of the term :tongue
this means that the Church of Ireland (Anglicanism) which sees itself as the true and authentic inheritor of the ancient Irish Christian tradition sees Saint Patrick as one of theirs. In effect they see the failure of the Church of Rome to canonise a variety of ancient Irish saints as further acknowledgement that Roman Catholicism is an alien Christian tradition in an Irish context, and that therefore the Church of Ireland is in fact the true "Irish Church" in the ancient Irish tradition.It's worth remembering that Dublin has two Cathedrals, both are Anglican not Roman Catholic (there is a Roman Catholic Pro-Cathedral as well, but the "Pro" is an acknowledgement of the fact that it has not official status) and one is St Patrick's Cathedral.
Drifterwood
Superior Member
Didn't the Celtic Church have beliefs that were ultimately heretical in the eyes of the Roman Church?
Yes, especially with Pelagius. I think he was arguing against what he saw as licentiousness stemming from the belief that there were no works involved in salvation. He thought you could work towards perfection, or at least behave better.
This was around the time the Celtic christians were fleeing from Rome's dominance - which ended with a slaughter of bishops who were hiding at the monastery near Bangor-Is-Y-Coed/Bangor on Dee.
I think some escaped tho, including St.Tudno? This was around 500s ad if I remember rightly?Also, on a Welsh tip. Did you know Caradog's daughter, Claudia, apparently married Silas, whom Paul stayed with while under house arrest in Rome? When Caractacus was captured, it's said he was also held in Rome, where his daughter met Silas - they then (allegedly) returned to Wales and started a Benedictine monastery at Bangor.
The Irish Church of late antiquity and the early middle ages was considered to have maintained some beliefs which were at variance with the teachings and practices which were then current in the Church of Rome, most famously regarding the calculation of the date of Easter and certain ritual and liturgical details relating to the celebration of Easter and details of monastic rule. The issue was intended to be solved by the Synod of Whitby at which Bishops and Abbots from Ireland and from Irish foundations in England met with Saxon Bishops and Abbots whose tradition came from the Roman catholic mission of Augustine.
The north of England had been evangelised by the Irish and much of the south had been converted by the mission of Augustine, so the Synod of Whitby ultimately turned into a clash of authority between the Irish bishops and the Saxon bishops who wished to extend their control northwards.
The Irish bishops and abbots largely rejected the Roman catholic revisions of the Saxon church probably on the basis that acceptance of them would have placed their English foundations under the overall control of the Archbishops of Canterbury. Whether the liturgical differences between the Roman Catholic Saxon Church and the Irish Church were even the most central issue at the Synod of Whitby is disputed, and it's thought that these differences were magnified by Saxon bishops who sought to discredit Irish Christianity as part of their attempt to rest control of the northern English congregations from Irish bishops and abbots.
The Roman catholic church, by which I mean the Papacy itself, never outright condemned the Irish church as heretical, though it did roundly and vociferously condemn its peculiarities.
The impression that the ancient Irish church was heretical suited the early Saxon bishops who wished to align themselves with the Roman church more adroitly and later it served the Anglicans who formed the "Anglican" Church of Ireland who could then more thoroughly appropriate these supposed ancient heretics as the forefathers of their faith.
But the Irish Christians of late antiquity and the early middle ages were never officially condemned as heretics, no.
Last edited:
Yes, especially with Pelagius. I think he was arguing against what he saw as licentiousness stemming from the belief that there were no works involved in salvation. He thought you could work towards perfection, or at least behave better.
This was around the time the Celtic christians were fleeing from Rome's dominance - which ended with a slaughter of bishops who were hiding at the monastery near Bangor-Is-Y-Coed/Bangor on Dee.
Also, on a Welsh tip. Did you know Caradog's daughter, Claudia, apparently married Silas, whom Paul stayed with while under house arrest in Rome? When Caractacus was captured, it's said he was also held in Rome, where his daughter met Silas - they then (allegedly) returned to Wales and started a Benedictine monastery at Bangor.
Pelagianism influenced Irish christianity certainly, but actually Pelagianism had always been a more popular in Gaul. Ultimately the influence of Pelagianism on the Irish church was never considered to have caused it to be formally heretical, just peculiar and mildly in error.
Ahh ok, thought it was a popular belief in Britain too - especially Wales...could be wrong tho!
Yeh, that's what I heard too - didn't they finally stamp out 'dissension' at the synod of Whitby? I think there's also a belief that there was divine punishment for the capitulation at Whitby to the paganised Roman church, in the form of an earthquake, or plague or something? Oddly close to 666ad anyway.
Last edited by a moderator:
It was relatively popular there, and it was after all thought to have originated in Britain, but ultimately it died out quicker in Britain and was never as popular in Britain as it was in Gaul.
Actually the Synod of Whitby was a fudge, some Irish bishops did agree to reform their dioceses in line with Saxon Roman Catholic forms, but the majority simply refused point blank and since only a very few Bishops from Ireland (as opposed to Irish bishops and abbots of English congregations and foundations) actually attended the agreements reached (such as they were) at the Synod of Whitby never really had much effect on the greater portion of Irish Christians and English and Scottish Christians practicing the Irish rite.
The really dramatic changes to Irish Christianity came after the Norman invasion of England, and the Norman invasion of Ireland. The Normans simply imposed their French variety of Roman Catholicism on both England and the parts of Ireland in which they were able to do so.
Last edited:
nudeyorker
Admired Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2006
- Posts
- 22,742
- Media
- 0
- Likes
- 842
- Points
- 208
- Location
- NYC/Honolulu
- Sexuality
- 100% Gay, 0% Straight
- Gender
- Male
The title of this thread was very misleading to me. Patrick was the name of the first person I ever had sex with. Oh well Thank God for Patrick anyway!
Indeed, there are songs in Welsh about that massacre which survive in ancient manuscript form. The influence of Pelagianism is thought to be observable in later heresies such as Albegensianism and Waldensianism among others.
Yep, a lot of those groups kinda followed on from one another, I think. They believed thy were holding closer to what they saw as a literal or faithful interpretation of the Bible, than the main church @ Rome. They were martyred for it tho...especially during the Cathar era. :/
The Peter Waldo/Waldensian group were especially interesting. As far as I remember, they saw themselves as the middle of the list of seven successive churches or eras in Rev 3-4. Thyatira apparently...there were a lot of similarities between them, and the actual church it initially represented.
Drifterwood
Superior Member
The battle of Bangor, sometimes called the battle of Caer, Chester, effectively split the Cymbrogi. The Monks were also slaughtered and I think it probably marks the absolute end of British Britain.
