The American Dream – Dead or Alive?

Principessa

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What is your version of the American Dream? Has it become a pipe dream?

The American Dream which as I understand it was loosely based on the strong Protestant work ethic, is dead. Dead as a door nail.


Democracy - Modern Definition

Because the definition of the term democracy opposite to monarchy and aristocracy rather creates confusion with regard to constitutional monarchies instead of establishing clarity, it is more appropriate to define democracy opposite to authoritarian and totalitarian regimes:
Democracy
Form of government, where a constitution guarantees basic personal and political rights, fair and free elections, and independent courts of law.
Totalitarian regime
Government by a little group of leaders on the basis of an ideology, that claims general validity for all aspects of life and usually attempts to replace religion. The regime does not tolerate any deviation from its state ideology. Regime opponents are persecuted, tortured, detained in concentration camps and members of ethnic minorities are killed in mass executions (genocide).
Historic examples of totalitarian regimes include: National Socialism (Germany under Hitler, 1933-1945) and Stalinism.


It is my humble opinion that the United States under the rule of George W. Bush has gone from a fragile democracy to a totalitarian regime. I base this on the fact it is not unusual for his opponents to have their careers destroyed viciously, die mysteriously, or just disappear… :frown1: :mad:

Democracy - Key Elements

In order to deserve the label modern democracy, a country needs to fulfill some basic requirements - and they need not only be written down in it's constitution but must be kept up in everyday life by politicians and authorities:
  • Guarantee of basic Human Rights to every individual person vis-à-vis the state and its authorities as well as vis-à-vis any social groups (especially religious institutions) and vis-à-vis other persons.
  • Separation of Powers between the institutions of the state:
    Government [Executive Power],
    Parliament [Legislative Power] und
    Courts of Law [Judicative Power]
  • Freedom of opinion, speech, press and massmedia
  • Religious liberty
  • General and equal right to vote (one person, one vote)
  • Good Governance (focus on public interest and absence of corruption)
This is why people still die trying to get here by foot, boat, plane, and water tight 1956 Chevy’s altered to act as boats. We may have our issues but we aren’t dead yet! We are still the best game in town.

With the exception of my opinions the rest of my information came from here. I used to assisst the NJ Core Curruiculum Content Coordinator for Social Studies and this was one of the sites to which we often referred.
 

Freddie53

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aznslz,

I Have everything I could ever want.

I will live on this planet for a very short time.

I have no jealousy of you or your countrymen.

I don't want your lives. The things you are selling me are vacuuous and meaningless. Coca cola and Mcdonalds and drive in movies and baseball games and above all CONTESTS.



Why can you not accept as a nation that the world does not hold you in esteem any longer. The world in general sees you a malicious threat.
Economically socially and millitarily
You mean that now the United States is a hated colonial power like the British Empire? I can't know how you personally live. I do know that the Unitied Kingdom was rated as the world's fourth largest economy in the world. The United States uses more resources than the United Kingdom because it has five times the population as the United Kingdom.

I just got into this thread from several posts ago. Some of the points you are making may be valid. However, Japan whitch comes in second in size in economy and Germany witch comes in at third place and China which comes in at fifth place and is napping at the UK's heels for fourth place aren't off the hook. The standard of living in the United States, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom is very close. And all of these nations are connected culturally by our language and many tradiions and also bloodlines for many of the citizens or subjects. Germany and Japan also are right there with us in standard of living.

The United States still doesn't come close to England in the number of ageless cathedrals, palaces and other government buildings.

Here is an anology that might help you see my point. Sure the United States has its hand in the cookie jar. We got 300 million cookies out of the jar. The United Kingdom got 60 million cookies. In both cases, both nations got one cookie per person in their nation.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Yes, it's getting more and more difficult to be marginally successful in America. It seems much harder to reach a middle class existence today, even for a 2 income family.

America enjoyed decades of economic hegemony and prosperity in the wake of WWII while other nations' economies were exhausted or shattered by the war. In a way, it spoiled America's perception of wealth because riches seemed inexhaustible and easy to attain. We envisioned ourselves as the chosen ones because of our good fortune.

It would be unrealisitic to believe that the rest of the world would stay down for long. We're competing against everyone who wants a slice of the pie and that's only going to make the going seem tougher for a people accustomed to easy access to wealth.
 

earllogjam

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The original intention of this thread was to discuss the American Dream and if it is still viable. Not a critique on American being a superpower. So back to the thread's original topic....


Are the traditional paths to success - hard work, a degree, taking chances, saving and investing – not working any more? Is there a false sense of hope for our collective future with consumer debt at record highs, near zero savings rate for baby boomer retirements and a social security system which will be bankrupt in a few years? Not to mention the escalating cost of homes and living expenses across the country and the growing gap between the have’s and the have not’s in this country.

What is your version of the American Dream? Has it become a pipe dream?
 

PussyWellington

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Why can you not accept as a nation that the world does not hold you in esteem any longer. The world in general sees you a malicious threat.
Economically socially and millitarily

Because that's what the American Dream is all about - believing the propaganda that you are the biggest and the best. They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

In all fairness the decline is on purpose. The people who pull the strings have/are intentially eroding your constitution. This is by design! Prepare for the coming Inquisitions.

The United States has never been a democracy - it's a Republic.

Your ideas of wealth are based on CREDIT and this is a house of cards. Things are going to get ugly.

The good days are over. The veil has been lifted.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Are the traditional paths to success - hard work, a degree, taking chances, saving and investing – not working any more?

I did all of these things...especially the hard work part. So far, they're paying off for me and my family.

Is there a false sense of hope for our collective future with consumer debt at record highs, near zero savings rate for baby boomer retirements and a social security system which will be bankrupt in a few years?

It wouldn't be the first time doom has been predicted for the USA. I'm not in a panic because I'm encouraged by the work ethic in the US. I do admit, though, I am deeply troubled by the tendency not to save or plan for retirement.

Not to mention the escalating cost of homes and living expenses across the country and the growing gap between the have’s and the have not’s in this country.

Popular sentiment holds that housing costs are unreasonably high in urban areas. In a relative sense that may be so but on an absolute scale, Americans tend to have larger and more elaborate homes than just about anyone else around. I suspect the end result of higher housing costs means that many Americans are simply going to have to scale down their expectations for the size and quality of home they are able to purchase.

Popular sentiment also tells us the gap between rich and poor is growing too wide. I'm tempted to believe it but I'm not really qualified to judge whether this is really true or is it just rhetoric. If its really true, then its a worrying trend because it can't go on for too long before some sort of violent backlash occurs.
 

Principessa

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The original intention of this thread was to discuss the American Dream and if it is still viable. Not a critique on American being a superpower. Sorry, my bad. :redface: So back to the thread's original topic....

Are the traditional paths to success - hard work, a degree, taking chances, saving and investing – not working any more? IMHO, This is correct. Is there a false sense of hope for our collective future with consumer debt at record highs, near zero savings rate for baby boomer retirements and a social security system which will be bankrupt in a few years? My peers and I have a realistic view; but I feel bad for immigrants who come here with little or nothing ISO the American Dream; for it no longer exists. Not to mention the escalating cost of homes and living expenses across the country and the growing gap between the have’s and the have not’s in this country.

What is your version of the American Dream? Sadly, I no longer have one, it died with Joe Di Maggio. Has it become a pipe dream? Yes, it has. Like Schiaparelli, Edith Head, and children who mind their P's & Q's, yet still manage to be charming and intelligent the American Dream is DEAD. :mad: :frown1: :mad:

My parents are in their late 70's. Mom was telling me just the other day how she and dad worry about the fact that working hard, and being educated are no longer enough. Apparently, it just kills them that while I have done everything right I have yet to obtain the success that they did at my age. They understand that it's because of the economy and various political agendas and not for lack of trying on my part. But it irks them and I would think that they are not alone in their feelings on this.


Happy now Earl? I have answered all your questions and will now be unable to sleep tonight, for thinking about how crappy things are. :frown1:
 

Principessa

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I did all of these things...especially the hard work part. So far, they're paying off for me and my family. You are one of that mysterious 20% that annoying Brit referred to earlier then.
It wouldn't be the first time doom has been predicted for the USA. I'm not in a panic because I'm encouraged by the work ethic in the US. I do admit, though, I am deeply troubled by the tendency not to save or plan for retirement.

As am I! Social Security is a pipe dream at this point, I don't expect to collect it when I am old enough to retire. Too many people for too many years have considered Social Security to be a government run pension plan. It is not. It was supposed to supplement your retirement income, not be your sole source of retirement income.

Popular sentiment holds that housing costs are unreasonably high in urban areas. You should see the suburbs in the NE USA! In a relative sense that may be so; but on an absolute scale, Americans tend to have larger and more elaborate homes than just about anyone else around. I suspect the end result of higher housing costs means that many Americans are simply going to have to scale down their expectations for the size and quality of home they are able to purchase. Yes, that is true for the upper class, and upper middle class, but what about the rest of us? What about the legendary working poor of which I am a reluctant & very pissed off member? We are the ones getting screwed up the butt w/o any lube.:mad: It's hard to start a revolution when you are working 2 or 3 jobs to pay off your student loans. :mad:

Popular sentiment also tells us the gap between rich and poor is growing too wide. That is fact not sentiment. The middle class is dissappearing at the speed of light. I'm tempted to believe it but I'm not really qualified to judge whether this is really true or is it just rhetoric. It's true, it's very true!:redface:

I know because I was reared in an upper-middle class fashion. Sadly, my old neighborhood is now lower class. :frown1: You can tell by the clunkers up on blocks in the front yard! The unkempt lawns; and the general deshabile. Those oak and maple lined streets were once lined with well manicured lawns and the garages contained luxury cars.

The dads in my neighborhood were 99% white collar - middle mangement - company men. Wives did not work, I had the only working mother on the block until about 1978. At which point divorce discovered our utopia and women started selling real estate so they could keep the house. Seriously, I was a senior in high school before I found out that you didn't get a gold jacket and a real estate license with your divorce decree. I thought it was the law.:redface: :tongue:

If its really true, then its a worrying trend because it can't go on for too long before some sort of violent backlash occurs. Trust me, we of the proletariat have not yet begun to fight.
 

earllogjam

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America enjoyed decades of economic hegemony and prosperity in the wake of WWII while other nations' economies were exhausted or shattered by the war. In a way, it spoiled America's perception of wealth because riches seemed inexhaustible and easy to attain. We envisioned ourselves as the chosen ones because of our good fortune.

It would be unrealisitic to believe that the rest of the world would stay down for long. We're competing against everyone who wants a slice of the pie and that's only going to make the going seem tougher for a people accustomed to easy access to wealth.

The idea that our standard of living is declining because of world competion doesn't ring true for me because wealth can be generated. Wealth is not a finite commodity that is doled out from one pie. Counties can make their own wealth pies not necessarily dependent on other countries. It is not correct to assume that because one country is getting richer that others MUST get poorer. Has the annexing of East Germany lowered West German living standards?

The belief that we are a well to do country and wealth is easy to access in America is contrary to the fact that we Americans actually have a lower standard of living than most "rich" countries like Scandinavia, Japan, Germany, France, when you look at things like life expancy, birth mortality rates, and education. I think that perception of entitlement or a free pass to wealth never existed in this country even after WWII. Obtaining it was always tied into the payback of hard work and ingenuity. There are still great opportunities in this country but only for a selected few creating the growing rift between the rich and the poor, have's and have nots, and the continuing erosion of the middle class.

What I am more interested in here is the question of whether social economic mobility in the US is being squashed. Is the American Dream dead? Can most people no longer achieve economic prosperity, to live better than their parent's generation did. And if not, why?
 

Principessa

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What I am more interested in here is the question of whether social economic mobility in the US is being squashed. Is the American Dream dead? Can most people no longer achieve economic prosperity, to live better than their parent's generation did. And if not, why?

The federal minimum wage for covered nonexempt employees is $5.85 per hour effective July 24, 2007. The federal minimum wage provisions are contained in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). Many states also have minimum wage laws. In cases where an employee is subject to both the state and federal minimum wage laws, the employee is entitled to the higher of the two minimum wages.
Minimum wage in NY & NJ is $7.15 an hour. Traditionally if you are working for minimum wage you get time and a half for anything over 40 hours. How long would two adults have to work at minimum wage jobs to afford a 10% down payment on a $400,000.00 home? *Let's assume both people work 10 hours of over-time a week.

I have dyscalculia so somebody else is going to have to do the math if they want the calculations to be correct.

In New Jersey, in 2002 a person needed to earn $43,500 a year in order to afford to live in a two bedroom apartment.

I know of college graduates that had trouble doing that and they had "real jobs." Does that answer your question?
 

earllogjam

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It wouldn't be the first time doom has been predicted for the USA. I'm not in a panic because I'm encouraged by the work ethic in the US.

The strong work ethic never solved the predicted aftermath of the Depression nor the Oil Crisis of 1974 and the ensuing Stagflation. What good was a work ethic if there was no work?

Popular sentiment holds that housing costs are unreasonably high in urban areas. In a relative sense that may be so but on an absolute scale, Americans tend to have larger and more elaborate homes than just about anyone else around. I suspect the end result of higher housing costs means that many Americans are simply going to have to scale down their expectations for the size and quality of home they are able to purchase.

The problem is that they don't built houses for poor people anymore. Also most Americans don't live in new big houses so what's to downsize? Downsizing usually means relocating to a community in the boondocks. I have been very fortunate riding the equity wave of real estate investments, but what about all the people who have been priced out of the market?

Popular sentiment also tells us the gap between rich and poor is growing too wide. I'm tempted to believe it but I'm not really qualified to judge whether this is really true or is it just rhetoric. If its really true, then its a worrying trend because it can't go on for too long before some sort of violent backlash occurs.
The dissappearance of good paying blue collar jobs is a reality evidenced by the dimise of many prosperous one company manufacturing towns here in the US. Those workers are now on the dole or working at WalMart - hardly middle class wages. The American Dream is dead for these folks. Remember pensions? It has become a dinosaur - extinct, except for government employees and CEO's and their ilk.

Happy now Earl? I have answered all your questions and will now be unable to sleep tonight, for thinking about how crappy things are. :frown1:

Someone's gotta shake people up from their slumbering apathy. :smile:
Are we going to be another Brazil in 30 years? I don't want to retire in a society like that.
 

Drifterwood

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Excellent thread Earl.

Point of order. The British Empire initially attempted in the flush of Victorian zeal to promote improvement throughout the world by imposing their supposed working model of liberal democracy, decency, education, hard work and free trade. They honestly believed that they were doing the world a favour - see Sir Charles Trevelyan. After a third of Ireland had been left to die and god knows how many of India's poor, it became clear that this model does not work, so for two generations the British got tough instead which is what most people remember. We were fighting, killing and being killed, and pissing away our other resources all over the world. The cost of WWWII was the final nail in the coffin, and we have only just finished paying our debts for it to the US.

Is history repeating? D'uh. I think the US has managed to condense the history of the British Rmpire into two generations.

Re the American dream. I think Earl has it in a nutshell. The key thing is debt. After college, I trained in an international bank. I learned two things, don't lend and absolutely don't borrow. Now I have my own financial interests, I have learned that I work 70% of the time for the government. Fortunately i have followed my own advice and I don't owe anyone anything otherwise another 25% of my time would be working to make the banks even richer.

The slices of a cake analogy is very apt. Basically what I have said above shows that other people have better access to the cake than you. Is the cost of your government expensive? I think so. Have the banks lured you into a credit society? I think so. Diagnosis - you're fucked. But the sad thing is that your leaders will drag you through two generations of abuse like the British did. It won't be good for you and it won't be / isn't much fun for the rest of us.
 

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I say, fuck it.

We're fed to the teeth.

Let the Chinese have it.

See how that works out.

Our fuckin' bridges are falling down and we're in disarray.

Yes, we have housework to take care of, but we'll be just fine, thank you.

"Impeach Bush now."


 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

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Yes, we are like Britain after it lost it's Empire. Is history repeating?

If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. Not only are we repeating the decline of the British Empire, we are repeating the economic path that put Japan in a recession that has lasted over a decade. The spending habits of consumers are similar to those of the Japanese consumer prior to it's economic problems. The Japanese companies sent a lot of their manufacturing to other Asian nations. The similarities are great.
 

earllogjam

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Drifterwood,

I think the mytholgy of the American Dream is the engine of hope that made America such a successful country. The work ethic and belief that we, through our own hard work, can climb out of poverty and be rich in one generation is very powerful stuff. It is like our religion to ease the pain of hardship and poverty. A belief we built a nation upon. We are still is the beacon of hope for many immigrants. People die trying to come here. The mythology is that strong.

What happens when that mythology no longer rings true? I suppose it happened in Britain with the loss of their empire. I'm not informed about the effects of this on your country. Can you tell me about what it was like living in a declining empire and how you recovered?
 

B_btrelll

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aznslz,

I Have everything I could ever want.

I will live on this planet for a very short time.

I have no jealousy of you or your countrymen.

I don't want your lives. The things you are selling me are vacuuous and meaningless. Coca cola and Mcdonalds and drive in movies and baseball games and above all CONTESTS.



Why can you not accept as a nation that the world does not hold you in esteem any longer. The world in general sees you a malicious threat.
Economically socially and millitarily

at least they are a threat. Look what esteem Iran held our navy in