The "asking for it" debate

[Phil Ayesho]

Personally, I think that the ACTUAL issue is thin skin.

It's like being an author. If you can't take criticism, don't publish.

Sorry. I can't sympathize with this.

Yes, there are SOME people here with double standards. But who cares? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Well said.

I must concur.


My biggest issue with this OP is the sexist assumption that there is a double standard AGAINST women.

In point of fact, the MEN who post pictures of themselves get exactly the same kind of creepy PMs as do the women. Its simply that the men are not objecting to it.
And because the men are not usually objecting to sexually explicit responses to their privates... the exchanges seldom get ugly.

How many guys need to post desperate threads begging people to comment on their dicks to make it clear that the double standard is on the part of women who imagine they can post nude pictures of themselves WITHOUT attracting comments or interest of a kind they might find objectionable.

When the women respond to this interest with offense... some of the men will get pretty ugly about it because they are getting mixed messages...
1 look at my naked self..
2 don't say anything I don't want to hear about my naked self.


Some women claim to want equal treatment... but when they get it... then they claim they want SPECIAL treatment.

Here is the crux... ITs a FREE SPEECH thing... when you post pictures of yourself naked in the public square, whether you are a man or a woman,... you are inviting comment. You are making your naked self available to the view of others and they will each have their own, individual reaction.

Because it is a public square, the people you are showing yourself to are free to voice their response.
Some of that response is likely to be personally hurtful or offensive.



But to demand that you have the right to post pictures publicly AND retain the right to control the responses of others to those pictures....

THAT is trying to create a double standard.

The implication of the OP's compliant is that Women are immature, delicate creatures, incapable of tolerating the hard realities of the public square. Unable to accept the fact of opinions they don't want to hear.
...That they must be sheltered by having the entirety of public society adopt a dishonestly mild or censored pretense to assuage their fragile emotional state.


If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If you don't want to hear unflattering or rude comments about your nude self... don't present pictures to one and all... be more selective about who you share such images with.


If you do post in a public square...
Then be a grown up adult mature type person and ENDURE the consequences with style. They are free to comment... you are free to ignore them or not read them.



There are thousands of guys who hit this site every day...
The astonishing thing, really, is that out of the thousands of guys who MIGHT PM you offensively... how remarkably FEW actually do.


Instead of imagining MEN are assholes.... Take heart from the relatively low number of offensive PMs and recognize how FEW men are real assholes...


But... most importantly, OP, .... get over yourself... You do not have a right in a free society to live free of offense.

Suck it up

That's what the rest of us grown ups have to do every day.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Well, yeah, they should expect that behavior; that certainly does not mean they deserve that behavior.

As far as appreciating aggressive behavior toward you: most women don't like it. Most men like it if it's from someone they would want a quick shag with, and don't like it if it's from someone they have no sexual interest in.

Fair enough - and do you think that women should modify their behaviour accordingly?

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Well... I think EVERYONE has to learn to modify their behavior accordingly.

I don't stare at drunken guys with gang tattoos anymore....
I had to learn that they get all up in your face over that...


Why should the world bend over backwards exclusively for women?

If you want equal treatment... then accept equal responsibility.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

My biggest issue with this OP is the sexist assumption that there is a double standard AGAINST women.

Then you need to re-read the OP - I said that I was using women as an example, I tried to make it clear in the first post and my subsequent posts that I do not believe this is an exclusively female issue. For one who so often seems to claim that people have misread him you could do with readjusting your own reading comprehansion a little.

In point of fact, the MEN who post pictures of themselves get exactly the same kind of creepy PMs as do the women. Its simply that the men are not objecting to it.
And because the men are not usually objecting to sexually explicit responses to their privates... the exchanges seldom get ugly.

I understand my OP may have been a little rambly - but please do give it a second glance - I think you'll find I at least attempted to cover that.

How many guys need to post desperate threads begging people to comment on their dicks to make it clear that the double standard is on the part of women who imagine they can post nude pictures of themselves WITHOUT attracting comments or interest of a kind they might find objectionable.

That's an interesting question - I was never trying to say people shouldn't comment on women - I was trying to make the post broader than just about PMs on this site, but that is the part of the OP people have run with and who am I to dictate the flow of the discussion.

What I was driving at more was there seems in some to be a double standard of who should post what and what they can / should expect if they do so. Gender is one obvious example of difference, but by no means the only one.

When the women respond to this interest with offense... some of the men will get pretty ugly about it because they are getting mixed messages...
1 look at my naked self..
2 don't say anything I don't want to hear about my naked self.

Well - that's not what I was trying to represent...

Some women claim to want equal treatment... but when they get it... then they claim they want SPECIAL treatment.

Seeing as you are staying on the topic of the gender difference - yes, that is annoying - but I don't see that happening here too much. What I see is some people (male and female) maybe being a little protective of female posters because often the nastiness towards female posters is more apparent. I rarely see the posters that defensiveness is extended to specifically asking for that special treatment.

Here is the crux... ITs a FREE SPEECH thing... when you post pictures of yourself naked in the public square, whether you are a man or a woman,... you are inviting comment. You are making your naked self available to the view of others and they will each have their own, individual reaction.

Because it is a public square, the people you are showing yourself to are free to voice their response.
Some of that response is likely to be personally hurtful or offensive.

The free speech thing really is your bugbear, isn't it. And I do agree with free speech. But that is really not what I am talking about. Repeatedly calling a guy a jerk is not exercising free speech, it is being an asshole. Also, repeatedly saying nasty things about a person's pictures is not exercising free speech - it is being abusive. If I post after you in a thread and say "Yeah right!! Asshole!" - that is me posting my opinion, free speech should prevail. If I follow you around every thread you post in doing same I am trolling you and should be warned and then banned for it - because I have already expressed my opinion the first time I did and subsequent posts would be harassment. Another example - an ex likes to phone up and say nasty things - does the recipient of the phone calls not get to call the cops after the 50th call because the caller is just exercising his right to free speech. Do you understand the difference?

But to demand that you have the right to post pictures publicly AND retain the right to control the responses of others to those pictures....

THAT is trying to create a double standard.

You are putting words in my mouth that I never spoke now - I never spoke about controlling the response - I spoke about the different levels of response that difference people might expect based on their gender, orientation, etc., etc. and whether dfferent groups of people could / should expect more / less of the negative reactions and also whether or not part of the fault was perceived to be owned by the person at the receiving end of the negative behaviour.

The implication of the OP's compliant is that Women are immature, delicate creatures, incapable of tolerating the hard realities of the public square. Unable to accept the fact of opinions they don't want to hear.
...That they must be sheltered by having the entirety of public society adopt a dishonestly mild or censored pretense to assuage their fragile emotional state.

Oh dear Lord Jesus Christ on a bicycle wearing tie-dye!! Where are you getting that?? No really - I'd love to see what part of my OP says that!

Also - my OP is not complaint. It is a question. It is a question about attitudes, about blame and abuse and how people might argue that the victim of an insult (or in a more serious real world case, a rape) can be considered to be partly to blame.

I think I must have pushed the whole part about PMs on this site far more than I intended to because that is what people are running with. But really - the main thing I intended to question is how anyone can argue the case for the '(s)he was asking for it' argument in this day and age.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If you don't want to hear unflattering or rude comments about your nude self... don't present pictures to one and all... be more selective about who you share such images with.


If you do post in a public square...
Then be a grown up adult mature type person and ENDURE the consequences with style. They are free to comment... you are free to ignore them or not read them.



There are thousands of guys who hit this site every day...
The astonishing thing, really, is that out of the thousands of guys who MIGHT PM you offensively... how remarkably FEW actually do.


Instead of imagining MEN are assholes.... Take heart from the relatively low number of offensive PMs and recognize how FEW men are real assholes...

I think this section of your post is quite revealing about your own insecurities about the place of modern men and how men believe women see them. I think it is rather sad that you feel you have to argue that point at all. I do not see all men as rapists and all women as victims - I think very VERY few of the women here do - I'm sorry society is so hard on men that you feel you need to say that and I understand it is difficult being a guy and having to be on your guard in case you say 'hi' to the wrong woman in the wrong way and she screams sexual intimidation. It happened to a friend of mine and he lost his job over it. I was disgusted.

But... most importantly, OP, .... get over yourself... You do not have a right in a free society to live free of offense.

Suck it up

That's what the rest of us grown ups have to do every day.

That's a rather offensive way to close your argument, Phil - especially seeing as you misread my OP.

 

[Gillette]

Could there be some kind of spam filter like Outlook or Gmail has? For example if the PM has the word 'cunt' in it, you could set it up to be automatically deleted. Or PM's from certain people get automatically returned to sender.

Good suggestion, Vince. At present the only methods for limiting incoming PMs are to either turn them off entirely or to recieve them only from mods and those on your buddy list. The latter might be a better option, come to think of it. What if one of your buddies forgets and uses the word "cunt"? You'd miss that message.

Personally, I think that the ACTUAL issue is thin skin.

It's like being an author. If you can't take criticism, don't publish.

So true on so many levels.

What I'm really trying to get at that your post, relevant as it is, doesn't take in to account is that there appears to be a hierarchy of different levels of response different people should expect from exhibiting the same behaviour (at least according to some). So person A and person B post near identical nude poses - the only difference being the gender or orientation (for example) of person A and person B. Some people appear to believe that different reactions should be expected and, for example, it is the woman's responsibility to guard against reaction by not posting at all.

I tried to make my post apply to both genders equally, even including the exposed anus as is often seen in some of the galleries of the gay men here. My advice and levels of sympathy are the same regardless of gender.

I don't believe there is a heirarchy at work. I think it's just an impression given by frequency. I'm just throwing out numbers here so don't expect accurate ratios.

Say there 500 people on the site.
300 straight men
100 gay men
100 women
Lets assume that each member of each group sends an "I'd like to fuck you" PM to to each member of each group that attracts them and who based on orientation would be inclined to accept them.

Each straight man gets 100 PMs
Each gay man gets 100 PMs
Each woman gets 300PMs

Of course with things like gay men wanting to convert a straight man or homophobes or the thankfully few gay men who think the vagina is nasty sending PMs to their intended target the numbers will jump somewhat, but the fact remains that each woman gets more attention than any male member.

Add to this the fact, for good or ill, men are socialized to be more stoic where women are socialized to express themselves more. So you'll see more comments/complaints/threads from women about the issue than you will from men. So while the advice is the same to either gender you will see it doled out to women more often simply because they more frequently raise the issue.

As far as appreciating aggressive behavior toward you: most women don't like it. Most men like it if it's from someone they would want a quick shag with, and don't like it if it's from someone they have no sexual interest in.

Yeah, that too.

 

[Gillette]

Manly, I read your responses just now about not wanting this to be about the subject of PMs but of the "asking for it" supposition in general.

As I mentioned before I don't think the two can be fairly compared. One is in response to a static image with little to no other information. Live in the flesh a person can change or add to that information by saying "NO" or deflecting advances.

If a person, male or female, dresses in a sexually suggestive manner, then yes they are responsible for the attention. They chose to attire themselves in a way that suggests sexual availability. You cannot expect to wave sex in peoples faces and have it go completely without a response of some kind.

That does not mean they haven't the right to refuse advances at any time. So, no, they are not to blame for abuse or rape.

I'll also say that IRL this "asking for it" thing is trotted out more towards women based more on frequency than hierarchy. Women's clothing on the whole is much more revealing than men's attire.

When was the last semi to formal function you attended where the men's legs, arms or breastbone were visible?

We are perforce on display more frequently than men. There's where the hierarchy lies.

Is that closer to the subject you had in mind?

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

If someone is adult enough to post (adult) pictures, they should be adult enough to take the attention and comments that it brings.

Really, if someone is over 18 years old, then in that time they must have experienced insults/abuse/mistreatment etc and learned to ignore it or otherwise deal with it. If for some reason they haven't then maybe they shouldn't be posting pictures.

It isn't hard to ignore PM's or not to read them in the first place. Gallery comments are another matter but no one is going to be everyone's cup of tea and again it comes down to being able to ignore or disbelieve the negative comments of others.

 

[D_Prudence_Admonition_Drightits]

Naughty I agree with you again my sister. You are one of the most stable forces on this board. Your wisdom and strength is very much appreciated.
I have to thank you, Mr. Snakey, Rico, and many others who gave me my strength.

The lewd PMs and posting I have received over the years, were not asked for, but expected. Never thought much of it to even be mentioned. But to be threatened, stalked goes over and beyond and to be said it was 'asking for it' is a defeated attitude. Something can be done. Remember there is strength in numbers.

Hell my skin is brown, does that mean I am asking for it when I am discriminated against?
Because a young man or woman is gay, does that mean they ask for it when they are beaten?
Because someone comes on LPSG and expresses an opinion does that mean they ask for it when they are treated like whores?

You absolutely know my feelings about it. Even without pictures in my gallery of my body I have over the time I have been here had men "emaul" me with requests for a myriad of things. I will say that this type of site does bring with it certain expectations of more open attitudes towards sexual activity but once again it really isnt enough for us male and female to say, "it's is the net", or "she should have known better" or "I was just having fun".

 

[Phil Ayesho]

That's an interesting question - I was never trying to say people shouldn't comment on women - I was trying to make the post broader than just about PMs on this site,

You used the term double standard... that makes it a gender issue.
You are asking for what?

Other's to control their expression for the benefit of everyone? ( mostly women)
Its a woman's argument. No different than the toilet seat. "Everyone else should watch out for MY ass."

What I was driving at more was there seems in some to be a double standard of who should post what and what they can / should expect if they do so. Gender is one obvious example of difference, but by no means the only one.

And I am saying that the only double standard is in RESPONSE. The Guys are getting the same kind of PMs... but not whining that something should be done.
The discrepancy you see is the discrepancy between someone just snapping back... and someone implying that the other person has no right to even speak.

What I see is some people (male and female) maybe being a little protective of female posters because often the nastiness towards female posters is more apparent. I

t I do agree that some men can be particularly harsh toward females in a specifically unfair manner.

Some men, especially those who are are failures with women, have a deep resentment and anger toward women that comes out at the drop of hat... When most men see other men behave that way, under any circumstances, they will call the offending male on it.

Men don't generally have this resentment problem with other men.
However... I just as often see women express a lot of resentment toward male posters.
When I see this, I jump on it just as hard as I would the woman hating male poster...

Part of the reason men tend to be the ones doing this kind of defending of those unfairly assaulted is because, thru sports and competition, men are raised to have a much more keen sense Fair Play in any form of contest... be it football, or conversation.

They don't like those that play unfair... and, unfortunately, the men who have issues with women often have a hard time understanding what it and isn't fair in a debate with a woman.

The free speech thing really is your bugbear, isn't it. And I do agree with free speech. But that is really not what I am talking about. Repeatedly calling a guy a jerk is not exercising free speech, it is being an asshole.

Its not so much the free speech as it is the opposition to the fascism of trying to control the thoughts and expressions of others. If I seem particularly sensitive to it its because in my country fascism has been in the ascendancy these past 15 years.
Political Correctness is nothing but a form of censorship under threat.

However... to address your point... yes, he's being an asshole... but he has a perfect right to say anything he damn well chooses.

The nice thing about ALLOWING others the freedom to speak is that they make pretty clear, pretty quick, just what an asshole they actually are.
Forewarned is forearmed.

Also, repeatedly saying nasty things about a person's pictures is not exercising free speech - it is being abusive.

Again... sorry, but you post pictures in a public square... you sacrifice the right to keep people from commenting on them.
I don't care how often anyone says what.... if it is not defamation nor libel- that is, if its their opinion- and as long as it is not threatening personal harm, then they have a perfect right to say it.

No, its sometimes not easy. I hear a lot of things I don't like to hear... get called names I don't want to be called...
So what? who died and made me king of propriety with power of banishment?

If I post after you in a thread and say "Yeah right!! Asshole!" - that is me posting my opinion, free speech should prevail. If I follow you around every thread you post in doing same I am trolling you and should be warned and then banned for it -

Okay... well now you're on ground I can agree with you about. This forum is NOT entirely a public square... its more like a privately owned meeting hall, open to the public.
As such, the moderators of this forum have a right to decide who they do and don't want to allow to participate... and they can certainly base their decisions on how people conduct themselves.

I have no problem with banning unruly, uncivil, and abusive jerks from being allowed into this meeting hall......

But in my mind that is entirely different than trying to control their expressions.

Not wanting to play ball with someone is not the same as suggesting that person should not even be allowed to own a ball.

an ex likes to phone up and say nasty things - does the recipient of the phone calls not get to call the cops after the 50th call because the caller is just exercising his right to free speech. Do you understand the difference?

You can call the cops... don't expect them to do anything other than suggest you change your number. Again... calling and trash talking is not illegal in a free society.

However... if the caller is threatening... or if they are also physically intimidating you thru stalking... if their pattern of behavior is indicative of impending peril to you... then yeah.... throw him in jail...

But let's put your scenario to the real test of free speech... Suppose your ex was doing the same thing... IN WRITING. Sending you abusive letters.

You gonna call the cops? Or just throw them in the trash?

You are putting words in my mouth that I never spoke now - I never spoke about controlling the response - I spoke about the different levels of response that difference people might expect based on their gender, orientation, etc., etc. and whether dfferent groups of people could / should expect more / less of the negative reactions and also whether or not part of the fault was perceived to be owned by the person at the receiving end of the negative behaviour.

I did not put words in your mouth... I characterized your comments as I read and understood them.
My commentary on your OP is my words, not yours.

To answer you more explicitly...its not an issue of fault. Its an issue of responsibility. IF you post pictures of yourself naked in a public place YOU are responsible for the fact that people will respond as people will respond.

People who are assholes have a right to be who they are... YOU are the one who invited them to view your naked pictures.
You are the one who chose to be on a public forum.

THEY are responsible for what they say... but you are the one who gave them the opportunity to speak.

( by "you" I do not men you personally... I mean the collective you of anyone who has posted naked pictures... man or woman)

And ANY implication that they OUGHT to act differently is the assumption that you have the right to control the expressions of others.

Again... I am using the terms You and they collectively... but I do not mean to suggest that YOU do this, yourself.

Also - my OP is not complaint. It is a question. It is a question about attitudes, about blame and abuse and how people might argue that the victim of an insult (or in a more serious real world case, a rape) can be considered to be partly to blame.

Well , let's set aside for the moment your capricious equivalency of a verbal insult to rape. ( its not equivalent )

Here is how a woman might be partly to blame...
I have a female friend who, ever since very young, had sexual fantasies about rape.

At the age of 18 she went to a local forested park, well known to people of that age as being a place to score drugs, where she met a drug dealer and stared hanging out with him, flirting with him, and generally giving him the impression she was interested.

She spent 5 hours hanging with the guy... taking free drugs from him...kissing him... let him fondle her...She was not put off by the fact that he was from the inner city... that he lived in a very bad section of town... nor that he had a criminal history.
after sundown they went to a bar, grabbed some food and drank quite a bit and she let him feel her up in the booth.'

He took her back to his place with the clear intent to get it on and she willingly went with him, giggling and excited...

Once there, she let him undress her, fondle her and kiss her, stick his fingers in her...

And then she said no.

He got enraged and raped her.

Now... are you telling me she bears no responsibility for what happened? That there was no point at which she might have foreseen and avoided the results?

Responsibility is not the same as blame.
In an adult world... the onus is on you to understand the potential consequences of your actions.

Adults know full well that pulling out into traffic can be dangerous...

And adults ought to understand the potential consequences of posting their thoughts, or their nude pictures, in a room full of other people.

I think I must have pushed the whole part about PMs on this site far more than I intended to because that is what people are running with. But really - the main thing I intended to question is how anyone can argue the case for the '(s)he was asking for it' argument in this day and age.

It is possible to be asking for it. A guy on this site made a ridiculously idiotic threat concerning "libel" and got shit on for it... by making the idle threat, he was asking for it.

Threaten to hit someone... and you shouldn't be surprised when they hit you.


I don't think Women ( or men) DESERVE abuse for posting their pictures...

I do think they should be aware that getting abused is a possibility when they elect to post them.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I think it is rather sad that you feel you have to argue that point at all. I do not see all men as rapists and all women as victims - I think very VERY few of the women here do - I'm sorry society is so hard on men that you feel you need to say that and I understand it is difficult being a guy and having to be on your guard in case you say 'hi' to the wrong woman in the wrong way and she screams sexual intimidation. It happened to a friend of mine and he lost his job over it. I was disgusted.

I appreciate your sensitivity to the issue... but please understand... I have more epxerience of it from the man's perspective...and so that is what I generally speak of... but the women who behave in this controlling fashion are doing it to EVERYBODY... not just men.
Its the reason women are so often so very hard on each other.

And its the reason these same women are so seldom happy... because the world will never be entirely as they demand it to be... and their sense that it ought to be causes them pain.

It is not the plight of men that I am concerned over.
Men will endure whatever they have to.

It is the plight of Women who are miserable in relationship after relationship... making other people miserable... because they stamp their feet and demand to get their way.

In the US today... men are not treated as equals by most women... but that doesn't mean men don't have advantages.
It means that they don't have true emotional and intellectual intimacy with their women... cause their women don't see them as having the right to be themselves.

That's a rather offensive way to close your argument, Phil - especially seeing as you misread my OP.

I apologize...
I do not mean to offend you.
I am responding to the ideas... not personally.

I find that most people believe in freedom, but still have conflicting issues and ideas that they do not realize spell an end to real freedom.

I am responsible for what I say.
And for what I do.


When it comes to posting in a public place...
I knew the job was dangerous when I took it.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Fair enough - and do you think that women should modify their behaviour accordingly?

Absolutely not, dear. You should behave as you see fit - including posting whatever pleases you, and responding to assholes in whatever manner you feel necessary.

They are free to choose their own behavior; as are you.