The Beautiful Big Gay HRC Speech

[B_VinylBoy]

if GWB believed in pro-choice, but said he was pro-life, and continued along with that policy and said he agreed it with it, would he be equivocating, or lying, being disingenuous or hypocritical? :smile:

saying one thing, while believing another, has a rather dishonest bent to it, no?

To be supportive or even have a positive outlook on gay rights does not require someone to agree with their views 100%. Although it's sad to see that some people may favor the repeal of DADT but not support same sex marriage, at least they support SOME causes. That's a step in the right direction, compared to the millions of people out there (including the several in government) who still think being gay is an abomination and would do everything in power to not only block their rights but make it illegal.

There's many issues that make up the civil rights campaign for gays & lesbians, whereas there is really only one issue regarding abortion even though there may be many arguments that look at it from different angles.

 

[Flashy]

When you're right, you're right. *sigh* But "lying" is such an ugly word. Let's call it "temporarily misleading", instead. :wink:

lol...

how about

provisionally deceptive
fleetingly fallacious
transiently delusory

:biggrin1:

 

[Flashy]

To be supportive or even have a positive outlook on gay rights does not require someone to agree with their views 100%. Although it's sad to see that some people may favor the repeal of DADT but not support same sex marriage, at least they support SOME causes. That's a step in the right direction, compared to the millions of people out there (including the several in government) who still think being gay is an abomination and would do everything in power to not only block their rights but make it illegal.

There's many issues that make up the civil rights campaign for gays & lesbians, whereas there is really only one issue regarding abortion even though there may be many arguments that look at it from different angles.

i am not suggesting that there is so much in common with regards to gay rights, i was just making a point about someone lying about their belief on a major topic.

to be honest, of all the gay rights issues that comprise "gay rights", the biggest, most important, relative one, is in fact gay marriage on a national scale. (IMO)

with regards to abortion, there are a host of other sub-issues (partial birth abortions, federal funding for clinics, parental consent at certain ages, life of the mother/complications)

the problem with Obama's view, is that he disagrees with what to me, is the most important...which is allowing gays to marry, legally, nationwide. his sympathy to smaller issues, is laudable, but not particularly impressive considering he opposes the ultimate recognition of the equality of gays and lesbians....allowing them the same right to marry as heterosexuals...


i think, personally, if i was to tell Obama, that i believed in his right as a black man, to

-serve in the military as long as he was not found out to be black
-adopt a child
-share benefits
-be protected under laws that were strengthened to keep him being targeted by racist monsters
-but not allowed to marry Michelle, because she was also black

he would find that to be rather upsetting, and, correctly, a violation of his civil rights.

he claims he is opposed to gay marriage because of his religious beliefs...

in that regard, he is not much different, ultimately then the right wing loonies who use that excuse....the only difference is to degree.

he believes that it is okay for you to have sex with and live with your gay partner, but you are simply not equal to a man and a woman legally declaring your love for each other and you should not have the right to do so...because the bible or "god" says so.

which personally, i find to be an utterly reprehensible position to take.

 

[D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse]

My friend Nick8 writes:

Dick Cheney has come out in support of gay marriage because he, and this supports Will entirely, has "evolved".

----------


Yes. Dick Cheney has evolved. Bill Clinton has evolved. Chuck Schumer has evolved. Chrisopher Dodd. Even John McCain advisor Steve Schmidt (for the '08 election) has evolved.

Here is Steve Schmidt recently addressing the Log Cabin Republicans, poignantly talking about his lesbian sister:

"On a personal level, my sister and her partner are an important part of my life and our children's life. I admire your group and your organization and I encourage you to keep fighting for what you believe in because the day is going to come."


I love that: because the day is going to come.



Flashy responds to Nick8 with:

cheney only evolved because he has a gay daughter...

maybe if one of Obama's daughters turns out to be gay he will evolve...

----------

To which Nick8 very sensibly answers:

Why he evolved could not be of less import. The fact remains, he did. And I don't believe for one minute that Obama opposes gay marriage. If his "evolution" takes some time, so be it.

----------


Absolutely true! Could NOT BE OF LESS IMPORT!

It's almost as if Flashy were desperately looking for a "WHY" (the gay daughter) in order to dismiss a perfectly valid evolution on gay marriage.


The gay daughter, the lesbian sister, the guy from "American Idol" with the black nail polish and guy liner. There are a lot of "whys' out there. WE are the "whys".

This is what Harvey Milk told us all over 3 decades ago. You must COME OUT to your family and friends! You must COME OUT to your neighbors and your co-workers! TELL THEM. Tell the mailman and the politicians! Only when they know you, are we are able to combat the decades of lies and half-truths and outright propaganda. You must TELL your family. Tell that lady you see every week in the produce section - sorting through snow peas and melons! - in the supermarket (This may not apply to you, Nick8, at The Garden of Eden). TELL your boss (if this will not get you fired!).

Once we wash away all the political and societal LIES (which the republican party at large continues to sow to this day!) can we help our friends and family and neighbors to evolve, like Bill and Dick and Steve and Chuck and Christopher.

 

[Rowan Ravenseed]

HERE HERE WILLTOM

I have been saying this for so long now... alot of my str8 friends think im trying to tote a flag and rub my sexuality in my face........

To all the Str8 people! and the gays as well that think its not important to talk about your sexuality......

BY TALKING ABOUT YOUR SEXUALITY YOU FORCE SOCIETY TO ADMIT THAT HOMOSEXUALS ARE PEOPLE......PEOPLE WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERY OTHER PEOPLE...... EVERYTIME YOU LET SOME-ONE ASSUME YOU ARE STR8 YOU MAY AS WELL BE SAYING "IM ASHAMED OF MY HOMOSEXUALITY"

 

[B_Nick8]

This may not apply to you, Nick8, at The Garden of Eden

Will, they all know. You can be sure of it. :biggrin1:

 

[FuzzyKen]

As a general rule actions speak louder than words. The words were eloquent and well spoken, but, the actions, over time, and to see if he backs down to political pressure on any and all issues relating to gay rights will be the measure that I will use to judge him. Ramming anything through the Senate and Congress with so many heavy duty issues on the table will be difficult. He has my curiosity peaked. If he fails there will be those who rail on and on about it. If he succeeds, we will have seen history.

Right now I want to see the Hate Crimes Bill go in with high numbers. That will be a sounding board towards other similar issues at this time.

 

[Flashy]

My friend Nick8 writes:

Dick Cheney has come out in support of gay marriage because he, and this supports Will entirely, has "evolved".

----------


Yes. Dick Cheney has evolved. Bill Clinton has evolved. Chuck Schumer has evolved. Chrisopher Dodd. Even John McCain advisor Steve Schmidt (for the '08 election) has evolved.

Here is Steve Schmidt recently addressing the Log Cabin Republicans, poignantly talking about his lesbian sister:

"On a personal level, my sister and her partner are an important part of my life and our children's life. I admire your group and your organization and I encourage you to keep fighting for what you believe in because the day is going to come."


I love that: because the day is going to come.



Flashy responds to Nick8 with:

cheney only evolved because he has a gay daughter...

maybe if one of Obama's daughters turns out to be gay he will evolve...

----------

To which Nick8 very sensibly answers:

Why he evolved could not be of less import. The fact remains, he did. And I don't believe for one minute that Obama opposes gay marriage. If his "evolution" takes some time, so be it.

----------


Absolutely true! Could NOT BE OF LESS IMPORT!

It's almost as if Flashy were desperately looking for a "WHY" (the gay daughter) in order to dismiss a perfectly valid evolution on gay marriage.


The gay daughter, the lesbian sister, the guy from "American Idol" with the black nail polish and guy liner. There are a lot of "whys' out there. WE are the "whys".

This is what Harvey Milk told us all over 3 decades ago. You must COME OUT to your family and friends! You must COME OUT to your neighbors and your co-workers! TELL THEM. Tell the mailman and the politicians! Only when they know you, are we are able to combat the decades of lies and half-truths and outright propaganda. You must TELL your family. Tell that lady you see every week in the produce section - sorting through snow peas and melons! - in the supermarket (This may not apply to you, Nick8, at The Garden of Eden). TELL your boss (if this will not get you fired!).

Once we wash away all the political and societal LIES (which the republican party at large continues to sow to this day!) can we help our friends and family and neighbors to evolve, like Bill and Dick and Steve and Chuck and Christopher.

it's almost as if, once again Trinitom ignores truth, for high minded language....

shocker there.




so let's define evolution

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.


one would think that such an intelligent man as Obama, would, presumably knowing his own cultural struggle with civil rights through his past, would understand just a bit quicker, the concept of equality...and the fact that he still, has not in fact evolved to embrace total equality is rather telling.

and, the "sensible" post you spoke so highly of, from a poster i think highly of states that...

I don't believe for one minute that Obama opposes gay marriage.

when, in fact he does, sadly....and if he does not, then he is an outright liar and hypocrite, not to mention, someone who is completely using the hopes and dreams of the gay community for *EQUALITY*, and totally disregarding and crapping on them.

it is amusing how you say that I, who support gay marriage, am desperately looking for a "why", when, in fact, *MY* view is far more intelligent than Obama's. It is OBAMA who you need to confront for a "why" in terms of "why" he supports intolerance and inequality on a national scale, while the dreaded Flashy, actually needs no why...since he is firmly in the corner of *EQUALITY* for the gay community

*UNLIKE* President Barack Obama, i SUPPORT gay marriage...Obama is the one who doesn't.

you are a total moron.

you are so twisted in your thinking that you think me *SUPPORTING* gay marriage, is somehow more insulting and problematic than Obama who *OPPOSES* it.

write back when you can actually use your brain to sort out that dissonance.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

i am not suggesting that there is so much in common with regards to gay rights, i was just making a point about someone lying about their belief on a major topic.

I don't see it as a lie at all. The only way you could is if you expect someone to be completely for or against the subject matter.

to be honest, of all the gay rights issues that comprise "gay rights", the biggest, most important, relative one, is in fact gay marriage on a national scale. (IMO)

Well, it's certainly the most popular especially after the Prop 8 fiasco. But to say that someone is lying about their support for gay people all because they're not comfortable with the idea of being married is a bit much.

with regards to abortion, there are a host of other sub-issues (partial birth abortions, federal funding for clinics, parental consent at certain ages, life of the mother/complications)

Point taken.

the problem with Obama's view, is that he disagrees with what to me, is the most important...which is allowing gays to marry, legally, nationwide. his sympathy to smaller issues, is laudable, but not particularly impressive considering he opposes the ultimate recognition of the equality of gays and lesbians....allowing them the same right to marry as heterosexuals...

It is a big issue, but I'd rather have someone like him in office now who could at least get some of our other issues surrounding gay rights dealt with than none at all. We only had two candidates in '08 to choose from that had any chance on winning the presidency. If McCain/Palin won, we wouldn't even be talking about repealing DADT or passing Hater Crime Legislation, never mind gay marriage. You kinda learn to deal with the punches and take what you can get. Eventually it will all add up to the end result if you keep working at it.

Besides, most people in America still have a hard time dealing with two men holding hands in public & kissing. Realistically speaking, until most people can accept that then there's no way gay marriage is going to pass.

i think, personally, if i was to tell Obama, that i believed in his right as a black man, to

-serve in the military as long as he was not found out to be black
-adopt a child
-share benefits
-be protected under laws that were strengthened to keep him being targeted by racist monsters
-but not allowed to marry Michelle, because she was also black

he would find that to be rather upsetting, and, correctly, a violation of his civil rights.

Did you watch the new Wanda Sykes special? This looks oddly familiar to her new comedy routine. :biggrin1:

At one point, some of the things you mentioned were either actual laws or unspoken ones accepted by society when dealing with black people. We tend to downplay the gay rights issue because of the issue of slavery. There's a longer, documented history of mistreatment of blacks and other minorities in America and that inadvertently makes us more sensitive to issues regarding race. However, being black AND gay (in an interracial relationship) I can see the issue from a completely different angle.

One side would hate me because of my skin color and the fact that I have relationships outside my race. The other side would hate me because I don't stick with my own kind. But these two different sides, who would never associate or work with one another would join together when it comes to the issue of sexuality and who I sleep with.

he claims he is opposed to gay marriage because of his religious beliefs...

IMO, that's the real source of the problem.

in that regard, he is not much different, ultimately then the right wing loonies who use that excuse....the only difference is to degree.

I disagree...
Religion has its ways on affecting everyone culturally even before one becomes socially aware of the term Democrat or Republican. Certain stories & beliefs are so embedded in our society that religion inadvertently affects many people's actions without them even knowing it. Case in point, one of my best friends (who happens to be Greek) was just married to his girlfriend of many years (who is Italian). Neither one of them were "religious" in the sense that they went to church every week or have a copy of the Bible on hand for daily readings. But when it came time to choose a church to get married in, my friend insisted that it be done in one particular that was also Greek due to sentimental reasons surrounding his family. Luckily, he and his wife are supportive of my relationship and also said they would want to be at my wedding if I actually did have one with my current.

Also, I grew up in Boston and now live in New York, two cities that have been more on the liberal side of things, and I still have to deal with the issue of some people hating me because I'm gay. Animosity towards the gay community isn't just a problem of the right. I jokingly say that I get it from both sides of the political spectrum even if one side does it more than the other.

he believes that it is okay for you to have sex with and live with your gay partner, but you are simply not equal to a man and a woman legally declaring your love for each other and you should not have the right to do so...because the bible or "god" says so.

which personally, i find to be an utterly reprehensible position to take.

It's still better than nothing at all.
Full acceptance takes time. With every step we make towards equality, it makes the most touchiest of subjects seem less worrisome in the future. The issues surrounding gays in the Military is a perfect example. Some tend to condemn Clinton for putting DADT on the table. But without it, we wouldn't be on the verge of repealing the ban completely right now. Gay marriage will happen eventually... as much as I'm willing to fight for the right, I'm also willing to be patient as well. You have to be... because we know how long it takes to get ANYTHING passed in Congress! :wink:

 

[midlifebear]

I'm all for gay marriage being legal in the USA. I'm just to old to continue to wait for it when my adopted country (a very Catholic one, at that) quickly got over the fear of two people of the same sex loving and marrying one another seven years ago. I empathize with my gay brothers and sisters, moms and dads, cousins and uncles in the USA, but you can't imagine what relief it is to show "normal" affection for your same sex mate in public. It's not that we go out of our way to play tonsil hockey on the Metro. It's just nice that no one is out "gunning" for us just because we are gay and a couple. Even Argentina has passed a national hate crimes law and it is being vigorously upheld in all of the Provinces. Last year the personal hair dresser to one of Argentina's great divas was murdered in front of his home just for being gay. The police jumped on that case, caught and prosecuted the killer faster than you could speculate if it was a hate crime or not. Then again, despite their dalliance with military despots during most of the 20th Century, Argentina has usually been ahead of the USA. After all, they outlawed slavery in 1828 and didn't even have to have a civil war over the idea.

Sorry boys and girls, I was just too fucking tired to continue to fight for my equal rights only be be rebuffed time and time again by my government. I don't hate my country, but I know when to get out of harm's way. Get back to me when you've been shot by red neck gay basher teens from Oregon for just walking down the Castro after work with your arm around your significant other. And by all means, tell me when you've created enough of a difference (by example) so that millions of dollars are not donated from Ewetaw mormons to defeat not Ewetaw's but another state's same sex marriage law. Had the mormons not sent emergency campaign funds to support Proposition 8 (or was it to defeat it? Sorry, I've long ago erased that space in my brain to store more positive information) -- anyway, no emergency mormon money would have probably meant gays would still have the right to marry in California. Amusing, however, that those married when it was legal have not been brought up on inquisition-like charges to have their marriages dissolved. But give it time. I'm certain there are enough mormons and evangelicals in that part of the USA to keep preaching the hate and injustice. I just haven't enough time left in my life to wait until it's legal throughout the USA.

Plus, the weather and food is WAY better in my adopted country.

And for those of you who, like me, lived as free and optimistic as we could in San Francisco during the 70s, maybe you'd like to share with others (especially clueless LPSG-ers) what happened to that optimism when Mayor Mascone and Harvey Milk were assassinated in their City Hall offices by a nice Irish Catholic boy and ex cop who had been raised to hate all gays.

 

[DaveyR]

I'm all for gay marriage being legal in the USA. I'm just to old to continue to wait for it when my adopted country (a very Catholic one, at that) quickly got over the fear of two people of the same sex loving and marrying one another seven years ago. I empathize with my gay brothers and sisters, moms and dads, cousins and uncles in the USA, but you can't imagine what relief it is to show "normal" affection for your same sex mate in public. It's not that we go out of our way to play tonsil hockey on the Metro. It's just nice that no one is out "gunning" for us just because we are gay and a couple. Even Argentina has passed a national hate crimes law and it is being vigorously upheld in all of the Provinces. Last year the personal hair dresser to one of Argentina's great divas was murdered in front of his home just for being gay. The police jumped on that case, caught and prosecuted the killer faster than you could speculate if it was a hate crime or not. Then again, despite their dalliance with military despots during most of the 20th Century, Argentina has usually been ahead of the USA. After all, they outlawed slavery in 1828 and didn't even have to have a civil war over the idea.

Sorry boys and girls, I was just too fucking tired to continue to fight for my equal rights only be be rebuffed time and time again by my government. I don't hate my country, but I know when to get out of harm's way. Get back to me when you've been shot by red neck gay basher teens from Oregon for just walking down the Castro after work with your arm around your significant other. And by all means, tell me when you've created enough of a difference (by example) so that millions of dollars are not donated from Ewetaw mormons to defeat not Ewetaw's but another state's same sex marriage law. Had the mormons not sent emergency campaign funds to support Proposition 8 (or was it to defeat it? Sorry, I've long ago erased that space in my brain to store more positive information) -- anyway, no emergency mormon money would have probably meant gays would still have the right to marry in California. Amusing, however, that those married when it was legal have not been brought up on inquisition-like charges to have their marriages dissolved. But give it time. I'm certain there are enough mormons and evangelicals in that part of the USA to keep preaching the hate and injustice. I just haven't enough time left in my life to wait until it's legal throughout the USA.

Plus, the weather and food is WAY better in my adopted country.

And for those of you who, like me, lived as free and optimistic as we could in San Francisco during the 70s, maybe you'd like to share with others (especially clueless LPSG-ers) what happened to that optimism when Mayor Mascone and Harvey Milk were assassinated in their City Hall offices by a nice Irish Catholic boy and ex cop who had been raised to hate all gays.

Great post MLB :wink: