the Bible on slavery

D_alex8

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Posts
8,055
Media
0
Likes
1,374
Points
208
Location
Germany
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
rhino_horn said:
i think thats bullshit.

Actually, black people in Nazi Germany were systematically singled out for sterilisation, and many ended up in concentration camps. Black American POWs were also singled out as "Untermenschen" ("sub-humans") by the Nazi regime. The whole subject was explored in depth in a British documentary a few years ago, "Hitler's Forgotten Victims". There is an overview of the most salient content at:

http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/Jouvert/v1i2/Delroy.htm
 
  • Like
Reactions: dreamer20

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Stronzo said:
I'm sorry for your disappointment Lex. I think highly of you and your good opinion.

I cannot embrace or accept any consensus of opinion (or compromise for that matter) when an indiviudal bases his entire argument on an history based in mythology rather than science. Playainda only addresses those things which suit his version of a selective bible-based reality. To me it's high myopia in just that way "disagreeing with the equality of other ethnicities" would be to him or you.

It's especially true Lex when he refuses to address how that same 'mythology' subjugated his own people for generations.

However, I am (from a personal standpoint) duty-bound to pick away at it and its outrageous flaws in just that same way many more folks dissected every last post written in the "thinly-veiled racism" thread.

To me this thread has equal importance. Perhaps to you it does not and if it doesn't I am disappointed in you.

In the larger picture I'm soberly more in the know with respect to how most members of this board will simply pass off homophobia where racial bias is landed on with "all fours". I've learned a great deal and it's been an unhappy realization I can tell you.

Dr Rock gets it. But he, dreamer, and Mkymkus seem to be about the only ones. Interesting that.

I hope you are not, by my omission, saying that I don't get it. I would like to think we know each other better than that.

I want to clarify. Homophobia IS important to me, now more than ever before--as you well know. As a gay black male, I fell the sting of both racial and orientation inequities all the time. I can not choose one over the other. Both are ever-present for me.

At the same time, I know that there are people of faith who do not comdemn us, there are gay racists, and there are black prejudiced people (some of whom have faith and some who lack it), etc.

When members come here and splatter gross inaccuracies or bigoted thought--you know that I am all for challenging them. Playainda is a good example, as was Chimera TX and others before him.

As far as you and b.c.--I think that you both fundamentally agree on a lot issues around racism and homophobia while needing to perhaps agree to disagree on the reconciliation of religion point. Some people choose to have faith and love EVERYone. I won't turn down love from someone just because they are faithful (I'm not saying that you have done this). If someone of faith decides to reject the homophobic distortions while keeping thier faith--I really have no problem with that (and what if I did, I guess?).

As far as the responses (or lack thereof or whatever)--I think we can only expect members here to contribute where they want to and in a manner that serves them. I certainly have admitted to you in being tired of the religious discussion for the most part. Yet, here I am. There are many whose voice I would love to hear on this issue (and many others). Sometimes I get to hear them, sometimes I don't.

I know in your heart, you feel that oppressed people would and should be the last people to marginalize and oppress others. I wish it were so myself. what we know of human behavior, however, tells us that the abused often becomes the abuser time and time again.

Breaking that cycle is HEAVY LIFTING, Stronzo. I am happy to have two hands on the big old boulder with you ann will always encoruage you (with a hump) to invite more people to help us lift it.

Hugs.
 

rhino_horn

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Posts
342
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
163
Location
east coast-usa
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
alex8 said:
Actually, black people in Nazi Germany were systematically singled out for sterilisation, and many ended up in concentration camps. Black American POWs were also singled out as "Untermenschen" ("sub-humans") by the Nazi regime. The whole subject was explored in depth in a British documentary a few years ago, "Hitler's Forgotten Victims". There is an overview of the most salient content at:

http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/Jouvert/v1i2/Delroy.htm

"...there is relatively little shocking celluloid evidence showing specifically how Blacks were dealt with. The film corrects this historical gap by relying mainly on survivor and family narratives."

further explains, many people were seeking reparations. truthfully, most people wud lie/exaggerate for a dollar.

if the narratives are true, then i apologize for my ignorance.
 

findfirefox

Sexy Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Posts
2,014
Media
0
Likes
36
Points
183
Age
38
Location
Portland, OR
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
rhino_horn said:
"...there is relatively little shocking celluloid evidence showing specifically how Blacks were dealt with. The film corrects this historical gap by relying mainly on survivor and family narratives."

further explains, many people were seeking reparations. truthfully, most people wud lie/exaggerate for a dollar.

if the narratives are true, then i apologize for my ignorance.

Never, NEVER question what these people have gone through unless you have evidence to prove that there only looking for money.

Always have proof that relates to the situation before saying something...
 
  • Like
Reactions: dreamer20

rhino_horn

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Posts
342
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
163
Location
east coast-usa
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
findfirefox said:
Never, NEVER question what these people have gone through unless you have evidence to prove that there only looking for money.

Always have proof that relates to the situation before saying something...

they're*

i dont have proof of anything, but neither do they. i didnt say that they were lying; i was just making a comment on human nature.
 

findfirefox

Sexy Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Posts
2,014
Media
0
Likes
36
Points
183
Age
38
Location
Portland, OR
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
rhino_horn said:
they're*

i dont have proof of anything, but neither do they. i didnt say that they were lying; i was just making a comment on human nature.

Don't make a comment on human nature after relating to another situation. And your correcting my post? The guy who said wud?
 

rhino_horn

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Posts
342
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
163
Location
east coast-usa
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
findfirefox said:
Don't make a comment on human nature after relating to another situation. And your correcting my post? The guy who said wud?

whaa....? look cyber-bitch, my comments were relevant to the situation and the point i was making, dont make a mountain of a molehill. please dont provoke another response from me...i was happier when i had nothing to do.
 

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Rhino_horn -- quietly excuse yourself from the thread if you're so taken-aback by people disagreeing with things you typed. Or next time, don't type them.

Once it's out there--it's out there.
 

D_alex8

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Posts
8,055
Media
0
Likes
1,374
Points
208
Location
Germany
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
rhino_horn said:
"...there is relatively little shocking celluloid evidence showing specifically how Blacks were dealt with. The film corrects this historical gap by relying mainly on survivor and family narratives."

further explains, many people were seeking reparations. truthfully, most people wud lie/exaggerate for a dollar.

if the narratives are true, then i apologize for my ignorance.
I will take your apology. What you wrote was frankly insulting, and in denying the atrocities committed against black people during the Third Reich, bordered on Holocaust denial. I merely cited the example of that documentary, as it was a useful and accessible source. However, much has been written on the subject of Nazi persecution of black people. The links below are merely convenient examples of online sources that relate to a vast body of offline scholarly and academic material.

"Konzentrationslager" ("Concentration camps") were a concept first coined in German during the colonial era, in fact, when these were introduced in German South-West Africa (today Namibia) to "control" Herero unprisings between 1904 and 1914.

http://www.kametrenaissance.com/Blacks_in_the_Nazis_camps1.html

Nazi propaganda aimed specifically at presenting blacks as Untermenschen... caricatures concerning American jazz musicians and French and American soldiers in particular represented black males in line with other Nazi 'racial' prejudices in a crypto-Semitic fashion, with hooked noses, etc. In

The internment, murder and sterilisation policies with relation to black people in the Third Reich are well-documented, and the links below offer merely the tip of the iceberg in terms of possible further reading concerning numerous aspects of the subject:

http://www.thechronicle.demon.co.uk/archive/lovehate.htm

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005479

http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/articles/holocaust_victims.html

It is perhaps no small irony that little was made in early post-war history of the fate of blacks, gays, communists and others in the death camps, due to the fact that American policies in particular villified the latter three groups anyway, with the Nazis' anti-miscegenation policies with regard to black people clearly not entirely out of line with the sentiments behind segregation policies in numerous US states at that time still.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dreamer20

rhino_horn

Experimental Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Posts
342
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
163
Location
east coast-usa
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
alex8 said:
I will take your apology. What you wrote was frankly insulting, and in denying the atrocities committed against black people during the Third Reich, bordered on Holocaust denial. I merely cited the example of that documentary, as it was a useful and accessible source. However, much has been written on the subject of Nazi persecution of black people. The links below are merely convenient examples of online sources that relate to a vast body of offline scholarly and academic material.

were u the only one who noticed that precautionary apology?

i didnt mean to insult anyone...just my opinion after reading that first link u posted. also, i went to school and ive never heard a thing about this.

ALSO, i never said any1 was lying, just said it was possible that they were exaggerating the truth.

in high school i went to a holocaust survivors event. i sat with an old jew who was telling a story about how nazi soldiers made him eat his dead brother and the remains of other prisoners after an allied bomb landed on the camp...everyone around me was crying, but i cant swallow the fact that one human being could ever that to another...nor the fact that anyone cud eat another person, nevermind the brother part.

Rhino_horn -- quietly excuse yourself from the thread if you're so taken-aback by people disagreeing with things you typed. Or next time, don't type them.

Once it's out there--it's out there.

taken back?....people?....disagree?....out there? no offense, but what the hell r u talking about? firefox was accusing me of saying something i didnt say...thats y i asked him not to respond.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Sorry to pick apart your good post Lex but you make many sound points:

Lex said:
I hope you are not, by my omission, saying that I don't get it. I would like to think we know each other better than that.

It was an oversight and I apolgize. Never. I have a very solid sense of you.


When members come here and splatter gross inaccuracies or bigoted thought--you know that I am all for challenging them. Playainda is a good example, as was Chimera TX and others before him.

Yes. I see that too. I think the exposure of both is crucial much as I wince every time I click onto this thread.

As far as you and b.c.--I think that you both fundamentally agree on a lot issues around racism and homophobia while needing to perhaps agree to disagree on the reconciliation of religion point.

He seems terribly bright. I wish he got this Lex, that's all. And I know he does in theory but that 'darkies' taunt was a shock given what I'd known of him as was his relegating me to "oppressor" status and assuming I bought into the narrow mine field I find Christianity to be. It was a monstrous assumption since, in truth, I've never felt any real kinship to that faith. I thought better of him as a thinking man. That's all.

Some people choose to have faith and love EVERYone.
We have a sterling example of just that quality among our moderators here. I agree.

I won't turn down love from someone just because they are faithful (I'm not saying that you have done this). If someone of faith decides to reject the homophobic distortions while keeping thier faith--I really have no problem with that (and what if I did, I guess?).

With you here 100%.

As far as the responses (or lack thereof or whatever)--I think we can only expect members here to contribute where they want to and in a manner that serves them. I certainly have admitted to you in being tired of the religious discussion for the most part. Yet, here I am. There are many whose voice I would love to hear on this issue (and many others). Sometimes I get to hear them, sometimes I don't.
I'm tired of it too Lex. It's tedious but it relates to the incongruities which separate many of us (on a very fundmental level) from each other as loving brothers. That's why I think it pivotal we scrutinize it.

I know in your heart, you feel that oppressed people would and should be the last people to marginalize and oppress others. I wish it were so myself. What we know of human behavior, however, tells us that the abused often becomes the abuser time and time again.

Again, you mention a very sad reality. But I'll mention again (much as many did in BB's thread) that I'd far rather we "outed" the problem than avoided it and made as though it didn't exist. To that end this thread's been enlightening.

Breaking that cycle is HEAVY LIFTING, Stronzo. I am happy to have two hands on the big old boulder with you and will always encourage you (with a hump) to invite more people to help us lift it.

With you behind me I know I'm in able hands.:wink:


What, I think, dismays me most Lex is that so few of the many male gay posters at LPSG have chosen to disinvolve themselves from the two threads on racism/homophobia and its indelible link to the Old and New Testaments. I don't have many male gay friends (my boyfriend is the only one I put in this 'gay male friend' category) in the real world from which I write this. I find many (most?) of the greater gay male audience largely superflous fellows with one eye on the door to see when the next hot guy is going to come in and the other on a cocktail. It's another source of significant realization for me that many of my so-called "fellows" are not more politically motivated in the face of what impacts them daily on a very tactile level.

I cannot tell you how glad I am to see alex8 here contributing in his intelligent manner to the greater proliferation of sound information. It's significant and his unique German perspective has informed the poster with whom he took issue and me to boot. It's a "good thing".




and to you my good man -
 

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Stronzo--
Thanks for affirming that I knew. We are of more the same mind on these issues that have been addressed. I, too, feel that outting the difficult issues is a good retort, even though many may choose to not participate in the exercise. I can only hope (as I always do) that many are reading and reflecting on all that is being said here and that some of these keystrokes resonate with them in positive ways. Let's call it "faith." :smile:

Stronzo said:
...What, I think, dismays me most Lex is that so few of the many male gay posters at LPSG have chosen to disinvolve themselves from the two threads on racism/homophobia and its indelible link to the Old and New Testaments. I don't have many male gay friends (my boyfriend is the only one I put in this 'gay male friend' category) in the real world from which I write this. I find many (most?) of the greater gay male audience largely superflous fellows with one eye on the door to see when the next hot guy is going to come in and the other on a cocktail. It's another source of significant realization for me that many of my so-called "fellows" are not more politically motivated in the face of what impacts them daily on a very tactile level.
I think this is really what upsets you (and I know it upset me to initially not hear more AfAm voices in some of the other threads discussing these matters).

Most PEOPLE (gay/straight men, women) are like this Stronzo. To busy superficially living in the moment and too unwilling to engage in heavy, critical and independent thought. Men looks past you to the next guy--this behavior permeates the relationship and intellectual mileu. And it's sad.

This ignorance, is sadly, prolific in our society and in our world. People have not taken the time to invesitigate their own belief system (or lack thereof) and are, therefore, content to be spoonfed the values and beliefs of others "because I said so."

So, the problem is not that Gay Men or African Americans are not as enightened as we would like them to be. No. The problem is that the majority come from the same unenlightened pool of society as the rest of us. As such, the enlightened among them are as rare as we fear they are. Sigh.

Stronzo said:
I cannot tell you how glad I am to see alex8 here contributing in his intelligent manner to the greater proliferation of sound information. It's significant and his unique German perspective has informed the poster with whom he took issue and me to boot. It's a "good thing".
Alex is a gem. He is able to directly bring illumination to many issues. He is able to joke, fleshpile, and posit in incredible fashion. He and many others here give me ongoing food for thought (and not just the dirty kind). It's what makes this a special place.
 

dreamer20

Worshipped Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Posts
7,987
Media
3
Likes
23,113
Points
643
Gender
Male
Thank you for the info that you posted Alex8. I wasn't aware that the first concentration camps were built as early as 1904 in Namibia to exterminate Namibian Hereros. I recalled what happened to blacks during Hitler's reign from what I had seen in The World At War series (1974) and other documentaries.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002F6AH0?v=glance


lol dreamer20
 

D_alex8

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Posts
8,055
Media
0
Likes
1,374
Points
208
Location
Germany
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
dreamer20 said:
Thank you for the info that you posted Alex8. I wasn't aware that the first concentration camps were built as early as 1904 in Namibia to exterminate Namibian Hereros.
Without hijacking the thread too much longer, it is truly a largely forgotten episode of history (as is much of the short-lived German colonial period in general)... but with around 50,000 deaths in the Namibian camps and a mortality rate among so-called 'camp detainees' of around 45%, it's clearly a crucial stepping-stone in the history of mechanized genocide in the 20th Century.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1005964774,9800,.shtml

http://www.henckert.com/karibib/concentration.htm

http://www.namibweb.com/ccamps.htm
 
  • Like
Reactions: dreamer20

playainda336

Legendary Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Posts
1,991
Media
223
Likes
2,363
Points
443
Location
Greensboro (North Carolina, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
60% Gay, 40% Straight
Gender
Male
Stronzo said:
Obviously lost on you dude.

You've been allowed (I say once again) to slander gay people hugely as you hide behind your reference book - all the while refusing to recongize the same phenomon applied to your own.

Obviously you are unable to put youself in the shoes of others who now suffer the same injustices as those who personally sacrificed for you.

**shakes head in sad realization
slander (n.) - oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation

OR

- a false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Wherein have I slandered any gay person? More importantly and true to the denotation of the word, have I slandered any gay person's character? I could've sworn I said a person's character should not be judged by their orientation...did I not?

The funniest thing about you and your "reference book" arguement is that I only talk about the Bible in response to YOU and others talking about the Bible. It is not that I refuse or fail to acknowledge anything. Because the Bible never mentions or even hints at by any sound interpretation that "Black people are meant to be slaves and you should treat them bad."

Please, if I read different...maybe I'm speaking in Australian (no offense to any Aussie) English or something, and not used to American English despite the many years I've live in the USA since I was born in Columbia, SC.

And I'm glad Alex pointed out that information, because it wasn't just gay people and Jews that were being slaughtered out there.

And Stronzo, you really should listen to Shelby, cause Joe "Six Pack" in the single wide is worth much more than anyone who sits and whines and complains about their situation. Joe "Six Pack" worked for his status and character. America really isn't about Black and White anymore anyway. It's about that Green. If you work towards a position where people accept and respect you then, you're much better than anyone who sits and says "Bitch bitch bitch...I'm persecuted...bitch bitch."

If people would stop "bitching" and get out there give show people what they can do, then you wouldn't be "bitching" in the first place. The Race Card has been used up, and the Gay Card is just as cheap. Make people respect you for who you are regardless of your color and of your sexuality and you wont have a reason to complain. Just how I feel about it. Maybe, I'm naive. But if I am, I'll have to be that for now.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
playainda336 said:
It is not that I refuse or fail to acknowledge anything. Because the Bible never mentions or even hints at by any sound interpretation that "Black people are meant to be slaves and you should treat them bad."

Obviously you cannot read or self-apply because your take is that of selection not reality. The Bible also doesn't say "future residents of the Commonwealth of Massachustts who do as those in Sodom seem to have..." but I get it as to whom they refer.

And I'm glad Alex pointed out that information, because it wasn't just gay people and Jews that were being slaughtered out there.

'just wasn't' gay people?? You moron. His point was that history eliminates gays and blacks.

If people would stop "bitching" and get out there give show people what they can do, then you wouldn't be "bitching" in the first place. The Race Card has been used up, and the Gay Card is just as cheap. Make people respect you for who you are regardless of your color and of your sexuality and you wont have a reason to complain. Just how I feel about it. Maybe, I'm naive. But if I am, I'll have to be that for now.

You're not naive. You're simply ignorant by choice.

You're a sad angry little closet queen.
 

playainda336

Legendary Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Posts
1,991
Media
223
Likes
2,363
Points
443
Location
Greensboro (North Carolina, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
60% Gay, 40% Straight
Gender
Male
They say one way people admit defeat is by "name calling". :smile:

You're spin doctoring again, because I didn't say "just wasn't gay", I said "wasn't just gay people and Jews" as in "not only". And using the word "and", it could also be read as Jews and gay people. I guess now you're going to tell me I'm anti-sematic, huh? You're really touchy about the whole gay thing aren't you? It's really not that serious.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
playainda336 said:
They say one way people admit defeat is by "name calling". :smile:

You're spin doctoring again, because I didn't say "just wasn't gay", I said "wasn't just gay people and Jews" as in "not only". And using the word "and", it could also be read as Jews and gay people. I guess now you're going to tell me I'm anti-sematic, huh? You're really touchy about the whole gay thing aren't you? It's really not that serious.

I go away for the weekend and look what happens..:rolleyes:
  • The bible doesn't condemn Slavery so by inference one must assume it condones it and hence similar oppresion - strike one,
  • the Bible unambiguously condemns homosexuality - strike two,
  • the Catholic Church refuses to endorse the use of contraception in age where 1000 people an hour (in 'Christian' Black Africa :rolleyes:) are being needlessly infected with a virus which will for most result in a slow lingering death, ostracised from society, why? because it somehow flies in the face of Gods teachings - strike three, the crowd goes wild, send that loser off.
Abuse of minority rights by a majority is wrong, period. Whether it's 'backed up' by a religious text is irrelevant. If, as humans (Created in Gods image remember) we know it's wrong to do so (and, in our hearts and in our minds we do) what more reason do we need to throw off the safety net and go solo for a while?

No offence intended to any, but in the face of the third heinous, unpardonable 'sin' bulleted above, and that's how I see it; as a sin against humanity; arguing 'semantics' in this forum seems rather trivial. I'm not trying to diminish anyones views or rights...just looking at the issue from a different perspective, FWIW.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dreamer20

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
dong20 said:
No offence intended to any, but in the face of the third heinous, unpardonable 'sin' bulleted above, and that's how I see it; as a sin against humanity; arguing 'semantics' in this forum seems rather trivial. I'm not trying to diminish anyones views or rights...just looking at the issue from a different perspective, FWIW.

This is nothing more than a pissing match to see who has the bigger figurative scholong dong20. I agree.

Unfortunately playainda in unable to 'look at the issue' from any other perspective than a derogatory and frightened one.

And to answer him directly; I'm undoubtedly no more 'touchy' about being gay than he is about being a black "Christian".:cool: