the Bible on slavery

ruinean

Sexy Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Posts
59
Media
14
Likes
43
Points
238
Location
Oregon (United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Interesting debate if somewhat too personal at times.

Bear with me a moment; think of the heat of this same exact issue 160 years ago when slaves were the reality. Think of the carnage, the war that followed was by far the most shockingly bloody, with the crowned heads and subjects of Europe in disbelief over the American's ability to kill and mechanize the process.

Should we repeat it for the rest of time? If we are going to repeat that injustice of mankind upon mankind then maybe we should also re fight other injustices. Or, better yet we can channel our energy into fighting REAL current injustice.

The bible is a wasteland of primitive urges and trashy spoken novels (some call it oral history finally put on paper once paper was invented) from a time when man thought the world was flat and he was the center of the universe rather than PART of a functioning interdependent whole. Shake and make up, never forget, but get over the hurts of the past or we are doomed to suffer the hurts of the now.

The answer to MOST of our problems is to maintain a sustainable population first, and educate ALL second, only from that will flow the peace and justice that we seek.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
ruinean,

Your post was a welcome break from a very nasty skirmish and I appreciate all you said in its broad perspective.

"..get over the hurts of the past or we are doomed to suffer the hurts of now" is what, at my better moments, I've attempted to convey. Amidst all the division I had hoped (particularly at this message board) to find some unity. It seems to have failed miserably.

Your objectivity was sorely needed just now.
 

ruinean

Sexy Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Posts
59
Media
14
Likes
43
Points
238
Location
Oregon (United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Pouring oil on the water was never my forte, but if it works...

I ran the risk of calling into question the validity of the title of the thread, nothing incites more division it seems than the word bible. It should just be relegated to history scholars and otherwise be junked along with all the other "texts" of antiquity that are nothing but superstition and ignorance.

The original thoughts posted in this thread for a page or two are all very well thought out, there are some very smart cookies with big penises it seems. I was sorry to see it devolve into one up-manship where the people involve all agree on the original thoughts.

There is MUCH in our lives that is good, or bad, that gets credit from the bible, piece of retarded shit that it is, so I choose to see it not as an evil thing, or a good thing, but a metaphor for children growing up.

Kids read Dick and Jane, then Hansel and Gretle, then The Catcher In the Rye, then text books, and finally graduate to write their own stories. The question is this, are you still reading the pap others hand you, or are you writing your own history? Fact is that if it had not been the bible it would have been some other book. The Arabs did not have the bible so they made up the koran and it is even worse than the bible for the shit it spews. The Germans had lost faith in the bible in light of the new rationalism that science brought at the beginning of the last century, so they made a new "religion" called Hitler. Guess what, they are all the same, they are just representative of human nature which I HOPE is evolving.

How does humanity evolve? We do it here and now, we choose to survive as a species, we choose to not kill ourselves via overpopulation, ignorance and injustice, and while revering our past, we do NOT relive it over and over.

By the way, slavery is not gone, in America it is on the ropes, but in most of the world people get by on less than $2 per day, so slavery is alive and well. The vast majority of humanity has none of the choices we take for granted to mean freedom. In short, and this is coming from a financial professional with an advanced degree in econ/finance, money is freedom, lack of money is slavery, if you are at all sincere about indignation over slavery you will admit that you are an "owner" of slaves, and that there will be no resolution till we have financial equality in the world. The only way we will ever have that is worldwide birth control strictly enforced so that the population is stable at half today's number. Every day that passes 40,000 die from malnutrition and starvation, poverty. Yet the population overall grows by more than 4 million each day! A city the size of Chicago every day needs to be built just accommodate the new people born ignorant. And that does not even begin to address the billions already in poverty, nor the building that must be done to house people in substandard housing, or to clothe those in rags, nor to teach those that cannot read, or think. And you wonder why we had 911?
 

Dr. Dilznick

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
1,640
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
183
Age
46
Sexuality
No Response
Stronzo said:
For the love of Pete! You had one! What do you think I'm fucking talking about here??

The DNA experiments in which Whoopi Goldberg took part to establish her African tribal roots (along with vast numbers of other notables) is proof positive that the need for reconnection is there and real.

I'm on your side b.c. Why do you want to see me as something oppressive simply because I want your help here??
The gall of you to suggest someone is culturally disconnected -- we're talking centuries here. Seriously, I do not have the "need" to do so. In my experience, most blacks don't. Our culture is hip-hop. Our culture is jazz.

I went to Africa and saw them AIDS children. They got shit that'll kill Magic Johnson over there. Black folks: stay the fuck out of Africa. It'll suck the lifeblood out of you.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Dr. Dilznick said:
The gall of you to suggest someone is culturally disconnected -- we're talking centuries here. Seriously, I do not have the "need" to do so. In my experience, most blacks don't. Our culture is hip-hop. Our culture is jazz.

Well obviously everyone is not you. Whoopi's a case in point.

I never suggested you were disconnected from your American experience. Reread. I said you've been disconnected from you AFRICAN generational one.

(Another example of selective reading...:rolleyes: )

I went to Africa and saw them AIDS children. They got shit that'll kill Magic Johnson over there. Black folks: stay the fuck out of Africa. It'll suck the lifeblood out of you.

Not quite sure why this is here but okay.
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
Stronzo said:
I'm so fucking glad you got that. It's been immensely disappointing that there's been so little. Look, I'm no one's "float rider" at some gay-arse parade but dammit this thing's going to take hands on work.

You have probably already seen these but if not and I accept it's somewhat off topic but these were in the news recently, I post them because the homophobic element was given prominence in the judgement, it was not just treated as a regular 'murder'.

It also underscores the sad reality that the US does not, as many of its citizens sometimes appear to think, have a monopoly this and other such problems.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-16T135944Z_01_L15923615_RTRUKOC_0_UK-CRIME-BRITAIN-BARMAN.xml&archived=False

On the flip side I also found this:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-05-30T175830Z_01_L30284784_RTRUKOC_0_US-RUSSIA-GAYS.xml&archived=False
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
dong20 said:
You have probably already seen these but if not and I accept it's somewhat off topic but these were in the news recently, I post them because the homophobic element was given prominence in the judgement, it was not just treated as a regular 'murder'.

It also underscores the sad reality that the US does not, as many of its citizens sometimes appear to think, have a monopoly this and other such problems.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-16T135944Z_01_L15923615_RTRUKOC_0_UK-CRIME-BRITAIN-BARMAN.xml&archived=False

Thanks dong20

Close enough to topic to be entirely relevant...

It's this piece that hits me as so outrageous and it's to THIS end I drive this point home... sentiments like this:


"They later told witnesses they had attacked Dobrowski because they did not like gay men and "that is why we can kill him if we want," the court was told. Pickford told a friend later it had felt "great" to have kicked Dobrowski.


Read it again folks "that is why we can kill him". And: "it felt great".

The larger population, truth be told, is more sympathetic to those sentiments than anyone can possible imagine as referenced my one of my initial threads when I joined here back in December regadring one Jacob Robida who went on the attack at a gay bar my boyfriend and I frequent locally.
 

Lex

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Posts
8,253
Media
0
Likes
118
Points
268
Location
In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Stronzo said:
...


Read it again folks "that is why we can kill him". And: "it felt great".

The larger population, truth be told, is more sympathetic to those sentiments than anyone can possible imagine as referenced my one of my initial threads when I joined here back in December regadring one Jacob Robida who went on the attack at a gay bar my boyfriend and I frequent locally.
Sadly, for most of the population, it is still socially acceptable to be quietly and openly homophobic while it is not so acceptable to be openly racist (which is why most people are quietly so).

As I said in the other thread, our hope lies in the Net Generation who seem to feel more passionately about ALL injustices and are overwhelmingly pro-gay rights.

Time Magazine did an cover story article months ago about the "Battle over Gay Teens." Conservatives are trying to get their messages into high schools in an effrot to fight the eventual turn of the tide. Let's us work and pray that they are unsuccessful.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Lex said:
Sadly, for most of the population, it is still socially acceptable to be quietly and openly homophobic while it is not so acceptable to be openly racist (which is why most people are quietly so).

As I said in the other thread, our hope lies in the Net Generation who seem to feel more passionately about ALL injustices and are overwhelmingly pro-gay rights.

Time Magazine did an cover story article months ago about the "Battle over Gay Teens." Conservatives are trying to get their messages into high schools in an effrot to fight the eventual turn of the tide. Let's us work and pray that they are unsuccessful.

Good to have your take Lex. Precisely as you say in your first sentence and the inequity of the two is what needs attention and correction. It's why I'm so hot on the topic. Acceptable 'openly' or covertly both need (or ought to be unacceptable) and I'll work toward that end (much as ruinean suggests in his broad stroke on this topic) until there's not a life breath left in me. And for me Lex, I can't wait for the next generation. I'm not nearly as convinced as some that therein lies the hope. We forget how many of that generation is home-schooled by intentional bigots to keep them from knowing the diversity of this world.

That fact (let alone the 'politico-religioso' melding in this present society) leaves me terribly wary of handing this mess to the next generation.
 

Irvy

Expert Member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Posts
308
Media
8
Likes
186
Points
263
Age
49
Location
Peterborough (England)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
A lot of what the Bible says is very cultural, but the blokes who translated it into English often didn't bother their arses checking that, and just went blind on translating the words.

A simple example- the Bible says that it's shameful for a man to have long hair, and for a woman to have her head uncovered. Sounds pretty simple, if a little confusing. However, the word "long" didn't actually mean long, it meant "ornated", and even then that's not it.

In that part of the world, there was a cult who identified themselves by braiding their hair into tight ringlets. It was their "uniform" if you like. However, the look got picked up into fashion (yeah, they had fashion then too), and other people started mimicking it. When people in the church then started doing it, Paul told them this to point out that if you're going to follow fashion, be mindful of where the fashion comes from. It seems rather silly for a person who wants to be identified as a christian adopting a fashion that indicates he belongs to an anti christian cult.

Same with head covering. Traditionally, only prostitutes did not cover their head, but then it caught into fashion. Again, Paul is saying to the women "Why, if you want to be identified as a christian, are you walking around dressing like a prostitute?"

It wasn't a total and worldwide forever ban on women not covering their heads or men having long hair, it was a lesson about being careful about what fashions you follow and why. However, we loose that lesson, and we just get 2 silly rules.
 

Dr. Dilznick

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
1,640
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
183
Age
46
Sexuality
No Response
Stronzo said:
Well obviously everyone is not you. Whoopi's a case in point.
Well, obviously everyone is not Whoopi. I'm a case in point. B.C. is a case in point.

"Rather, it is his elitist type of presumptiveness to think [...] we (Blacks) need return to our roots, to discover and practice some original African religion practiced by an untraceable ancestry (notwithstanding any other ancestry we may also have ties to). After all, Whoopi did it." – b.c.

Blacks need to return to their roots. I get it. You can generalize a whole group of people, because they are one and the same and nobody in this world has their own opinions.

I never suggested you were disconnected from your American experience. Reread. I said you've been disconnected from you AFRICAN generational one.
It is not "my" experience. Humans and apes share a common ancestor, maybe I'm disconnected from that "experience" as well?
 

dong20

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
6,058
Media
0
Likes
28
Points
183
Location
The grey country
Sexuality
No Response
Stronzo said:
..Read it again folks "that is why we can kill him". And: "it felt great".....

Well, with people having such sentiments on this and other issues walking our streets, such 'enemies within' provide ample evidence that we have mindless violence down pat, who needs terrorists?

It has to be said, in my limited experience I believe this degree of extreme Homophobia is atypical of the UK and we take such things seriously. I don't know if that makes us less judgemental or more apathetic..:rolleyes:

It is interesting that there appears to have been no religious undertones to the crime, perhaps because most religious 'hate' crime these days is (mis)directed at Muslims..it's called 'Isalamaphobia' and 7/7 has only made it worse. Currently, Homosexuals are rather lower in the bashing hierarchy.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Dr. Dilznick said:
Well, obviously everyone is not Whoopi. I'm a case in point. B.C. is a case in point.

"Rather, it is his elitist type of presumptiveness to think [...] we (Blacks) need return to our roots, to discover and practice some original African religion practiced by an untraceable ancestry (notwithstanding any other ancestry we may also have ties to). After all, Whoopi did it." – b.c.

Yes Dilz. I read it and understood that he needed to attack me the first time I read it. Hell we're all different dude. My sister's as English as I am but she likes to pull the arm on slot machines in Vegas:rolleyes: where I enjoy roaming the Lake District in England. We vary ... all of us.

The defensism is rampant that's what I'm noticing. If someone told me that much of my ancestral legacy had been lost as my ancestors (which they did) crossed the Atlantic nearly four hundred years ago I'd tell them they were correct. They are too. And I lament the loss. Goodness knows I feel more 'kinship' with my ancestral land these days (in spite of dong20's Reuter's articles) than I do Dubya's land of the cowboy. But reality is reality and I won't deny that much of my history is lamentably lost. However I maintain that yours was annihilated. I love history and genealogy Dilz. Both are avocations of mine. So for me it would be a source of some anger were I in the shoes of some black Americans. However I don't expect everyone to feel as you do or as I do. I don't think anyone is trying to deny me or previous American generations of my family their North American history. I know that much as many have tried to make as if I were that it was a knee-jerk defensism on their part since the black American experience is as unique as the Yankee Bostonian one. Both have contributed immensely to this American culture. Hope that's clear.

Blacks need return to their roots. I get it.

No, you're off the mark. I never implied that.

I don't instruct anyone to do that who's not predisposed. I prefaced this thread with a question and a premise. The responses have been really informing to me. That's all. Why it's been abused and misused to create platform to question my motivations - when my orignal intent was to illustrate a commonality between you and me that cannot be denied - is a bafflement to me that so few have responded to the similarites we as gay Americans and those of you who are black Americans share at the hands of Biblical scriptural condemnation. It's as though that point's been entirely lost on every responding poster.

You can generalize a whole group of people, because they are one in the same and nobody in this world has their own opinions.
Please tell me, Dilz, once where you've seen me 'generalize a whole group of people'. In truth each one of us has 'their own options'. It's called simply; choice.

It is not "my" experience. Humans and apes share a common ancestor, maybe I'm disconnected from that "experience" as well?
No more or less so than I am and in truth you know that's a preposterous question beneath even you.

But if you feel like Jane Goodall I suggest you do as she did. Perhaps she felt just that 'disconnection' of which you speak (and she was a good deal fairer (pigment-wise) than I am):rolleyes:
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
dong20 said:
Well, with people having such sentiments on this and other issues walking our streets, such 'enemies within' provide ample evidence that we have mindless violence down pat, who needs terrorists?

It has to be said, in my limited experience I believe this degree of extreme Homophobia is atypical of the UK and we take such things seriously. I don't know if that makes us less judgemental or more apathetic..:rolleyes:

It is interesting that there appears to have been no religious undertones to the crime, perhaps because most religious 'hate' crime these days is (mis)directed at Muslims..it's called 'Isalamaphobia' and 7/7 has only made it worse. Currently, Homosexuals are rather lower in the bashing hierarchy.

I think, dong, the religious thing (at least when held to surface scrutiny) is moot by now it's so ingrained socially. So, for me, it's there nonetheless. And yes I agree with your sentiments generally re homophobia per se in the UK. I've experienced a difference that's noticeable. In truth many Italian homosexuals weekend in London for its freedom in just that way.

Well- if you were to peruse a Yahoo Christian chatroom (which I've done) you'd see the sentiments toward Muslims in this "land of the free" is pretty much identical to your own in the United Kingdom. It appears that fear (either real or imagined) brings out the very worst in human nature generally and when coupled with the subliminal messages spoon fed us as children that Biblical scripture is somehow a law greater than that of any government you'll find that people behave like your Mr. Pickford and his cohort there.

That's what I seek to address and seek to undermine; a presumption off the age-old imposition of Christian dogma which (as I think ruinean spoke so eloquently) can spell the demise of us all as a species if we're not made aware of its negative impact.
 

findfirefox

Sexy Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Posts
2,014
Media
0
Likes
36
Points
183
Age
38
Location
Portland, OR
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Lex said:
Time Magazine did an cover story article months ago about the "Battle over Gay Teens." Conservatives are trying to get their messages into high schools in an effort to fight the eventual turn of the tide. Let's us work and pray that they are unsuccessful.

I used to know an insane Christian person who knew I was homosexual, she took too a church thing (When I say took I mean blackmailed) in NE Portland, basically I sat there for about 5 hours to be brainwashed into being straight. All I remember was the guy next me was hot. :cool:

Though I will say if the conservatives have there way and get there "messages" into school it was cause more people to hide and stay in the closet, and that's just wrong.
 

Shelby

Experimental Member
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
2,129
Media
0
Likes
15
Points
258
Location
in the internet
With all due respect.

I find it interesting that people feel they can cavalierly toss around terms like 'heterosexual dolts' and/or 'stupid white men' and at the same time take issue with the fact that they're not accepted as equals by said parties.

Seems like a losing strategy, or at least inept.
 

D_Melburn Pudmuncher

Account Disabled
Joined
Mar 30, 2006
Posts
36
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
151
What were we talking about...oh yeah the Bible and slavery.
In the original language, words rendered slave or servant are not limited in their application to persons owned by others. Slaves in biblical times often had opportunities to rise to positions of power ie Joseph who was sold into slavery and became Pharaoh's head cheeze.
War, poverty and crime were the basic factors that reduced persons to a state of servitude. Captives of war were often sold into slavery by their captors. In Israaelite society a person who became poor could sell himself or his children into slavery to care for his indebtedness. One guilty of thievery but unable to make compensation was sold for the things he stole, and cold regain his freedom at the time all claims against him were cared for. Exodus 21 outlines the laws that protected the slaves from brutality and the punishments for brutality that would have meant considerable loss for the master. These laws served as a strong deterrent against abuse one would think.
Those were very different times and cultures. Women and children doing physical work was a common occurance . It would be difficult to try to understand these things by comparing them to todays views on such matters. It would be easy to jump to the wrong conclusion and end up viewing God as evil and vengful if you didn't understand the surrounding circumstances. Today when we hear the word slave we tend to think of a black person being whipped in a cotton field. Yet every civilization has had slaves in some form or another unfortunately. Most of the time in the Bible they were talking about slavery more in terms of people who no longer were able to work for themselves but rather had to work for someone and be obligated to an employer of sorts.
Today, from a distance most of us look like slaves when you think about it.
 

B_Stronzo

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Posts
4,588
Media
0
Likes
133
Points
183
Location
Plimoth Plantation
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Shelby said:
With all due respect.

I find it interesting that people feel they can cavalierly toss around terms like 'heterosexual dolts' and/or 'stupid white men' and at the same time take issue with the fact that they're not accepted as equals by said parties.

Seems like a losing strategy, or at least inept.

With all due respect in return Shelby the second part of the negative epithet applies directly to my own quote. The first I haven't used (appropriate as I may think it).

Stupid White Men is a book written by the controversial Michael Moore.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060392452/002-9041964-3706438?v=glance&n=283155

Considering he's a heterosexual white male himself I'd say he gets to call those who are - precisely that. If you haven't read it I think all men who perceive there to be no real bitch in our society with regard to human rights do so at once. Pity his good book hasn't reached his target audience.

Moore gets right to the gist of the thing; the not-so-subtle realization that much of the woes of this world has been at the hand of precisely that; "stupid white men". We've been suffering from the phenomenon since time immemorial.

Remember I am a white man so I get to say it.

Perhaps to understand it Shelby, in truth, you have to stop being it.

rookaponz said:
Today when we hear the word slave we tend to think of a black person being whipped in a cotton field. Yet every civilization has had slaves in some form or another unfortunately. Most of the time in the Bible they were talking about slavery more in terms of people who no longer were able to work for themselves but rather had to work for someone and be obligated to an employer of sorts.

In that same light to take vague references to Sodom and Gomorrah and the few other references to same sex relations and situations in today's context seems equally selective and non-applicable.

This shit's so apparent it's glaringly obvious.
 

Dr. Dilznick

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Posts
1,640
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
183
Age
46
Sexuality
No Response
Stronzo said:
Please tell me, Dilz, once where you've seen me 'generalize a whole group of people'.
It was implied, or at least that's how I read it:

"I think you need to come to terms with your ethnicity and your real place in this society." - Stronzo

Both are avocations of mine. So for me it would be a source of some anger were I in the shoes of some black Americans.
Negroes are an interesting bunch. At first forced here at knifepoint upon sprawling boats and stacked upon each other in the darkened hull while adrift on the roaring Atlantic, they now come here of their own volition.

my orignal intent was to illustrate a commonality between you and me that cannot be denied - is a bafflement to me that so few have responded to the similarites we as gay Americans and those of you who are black Americans share at the hands of Biblical scriptural condemnation. It's as though that point's been entirely lost on every responding poster.
naughty and playainda336 are the only black Christian fundamentalists on this board as far as I know. Maybe you should talk to them. Either way, the argument is pointless. We know that the Bible is a falsified document, not the result of godly inspiration but the works of mere mortals, some with good intentions, most with bad. You'd be surprised how uncomfortable people become when their religion is brought up, even if it's not done in an aggressive or disagreeable way. Ask the average Christian a legitimate question about his or her faith, and they usually don't want to talk about it anymore (I've seen this particular situation occur on no less than 20 occasions that I can think of). I guess it's "dangerous" to make people question (even a little bit) what they've been raised to believe.

Well, I think I've said my piece. I'll do my best not to over-exert myself.
 

Shelby

Experimental Member
Joined
May 17, 2004
Posts
2,129
Media
0
Likes
15
Points
258
Location
in the internet
I'm very familiar with Mr. Moore and while he has his points, for my two bits you've played right into his hand. Now how about you skip on down to the library and read 'The Content of Our Character' by Shelby Steele and then get back to me.

Unless you're afraid.