the Bible on slavery

dreamer20

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rookaponz said:
... Slaves in biblical times often had opportunities to rise to positions of power ie Joseph who was sold into slavery and became Pharaoh's head cheeze...
Again I say no. The Egyptians were meticulous record keepers and archeologists have discovered that the Tale of Joseph is actually a corruption of the ancient Egyptians "Tale of Two Brothers" which was also a work of fiction. See a critical analysis of the Tale of Joseph at the following link:

http://www.greatlie.com/en/

Again you mention the laws which allow a slave owner to beat his slaves so severely that they could die and also excuse this death if the slave managed to live for 2 days before dying. That doesn't seem like a brutality deterrent to me. In the OT the cruelty of God and the Hebrew tribe is quite evident, and should not be dismissed but strongly condemned, as shown at the following links:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl1.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl2.htm


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D_Melburn Pudmuncher

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Again you mention the laws which allow a slave owner to beat his slaves so severely that they could die and also excuse this death if the slave managed to live for 2 days before dying. That doesn't seem like a brutality deterrent to me. In the OT the cruelty of God and the Hebrew tribe is quite evident, and should not be dismissed but strongly condemned, as shown at the following links:

I will look at the links you provided.
I think it's important to examine alternate viewpoints whenever possible before condemning God or painting him as a cruel taskmaster. Children often see their parents ways as harsh and unreasonable but when they mature and have a broader understanding , realize the wisdom in their parents actions when they would have sworn they never would. We are talking big picture Universal issues here and everyone human I know is guilty of jumping to the wrong conclusion even in the most simple day to day matters. Maybe it will be different in this case, however so often in the past when it comes to the Bible, I have found that the arguments presented against the authenticity of the scriptures have usually had a completely reasonable alternate way to see it. Also these arguments appear to be presented by those who have some sort of axe to grind. Whether because they have seen the hypocracy or were mistreated or condemned for a particular course of life they wanted to pursue, by a judgmental religious organization Perhaps they simply don't want anyone telling them what to do...even a God. (the latter being what got Adam and Eve into to trouble and why mankind is in such a mess according to the Bible)
In the case of the Master who beats the slave scenario. My understanding of that is as follows.
If you were to come into possession of a slave it would have been because you bought him/her, paid off their debts and were being compensated for said payment by the future services of the slave and the slave would have agreeed to this. Or you may have procured the slave from the captives of the latest uprising.(Usually brought on by some serious wrong commited by another nation towards Gods people) That was the arrangement apparently. In any event the slave would probably have wanted to be somewhere else and not working for this new owner. What was this owner to do if the slave just sat around , was rebellious or did as little as possible or was still thieving or was violent ? Should he send him packing and loose all he had paid out in advance? Every slave in town would pull this stunt in order to be free. Apparently Gods law allowed the owner to discipline such a slave, but with limitations. The beating could not have administered with a lethal instrument ((compare Numbers 35:16-18) If so and the slave were to die, his death were to be avenged. If he were to linger a day or two before dying-this might indicate that the master had not intended to kill the slave but rather to discipline him. The fact that he did not die immediately could cause reasonable question (lack of medical technology) as to whether the slave actually died from the chastisement or something else. This would all be determined by the nations Judges.
To me the whole premise of the Bible if it true is this. God created man/women who were not pre programmed robots. They had choices as to their future. In order to maintain order there needed to be laws with conseqences.(we’ve all seen what happens if there aren’t any)
Adam and Eve decided they wanted to live by their own standards. The consequence of this was to be put out of the Garden and grow old and die. God had to obey his own laws. I suppose he could have let them off like an indulgent parent might with a child only to have the child try it again. So in order to prove once for all eternity that mankind was unable to live a without his laws God let them carry on for a specific amount of time known only to him. As we can see from thousands of years of history ( a short time to God) that the earth is still a magnificant place except for where man has taken imperfect, short sighted or just plain wicked actions that have caused furthur devistation to himself.
God promised to buy back the lives Adam and Eve lost for us and restore the earth to its former condition. (Enter Jesus) All the accounts in the bible ( and the history I’ve witnessed especially very recently) to me seem furthur proof that man can’t rule himself at all ! There has to be a neutral party overseeing us and a set of unmoveable laws in which we must obey in order for there to be justic and peace for everyone. But what if we are being like spoiled children who want everything on our own terms and are too short sided to see what is and has been going on all this time. Are we trying to confuse the issues at hand by bickering over the details hoping to find a loophole to prove mom and dad are in the wrong. Is it easier to paint God as a tyrant sighting this as a reason to feel justified in carrying on doing whatever we want regardless of the long term consequences. What if everyone cast him aside...and the Bible was proven to be fake? Would our troubles will be over. Mankind would be free from God's tyranny and all would be well with the universe...Right ?
What would happen to the kind of guys that invent things Napalm? Would they just go away on their own or would we be like that tyranical God if we tried to do away with him?
I hope there is a God and everything mankind has experienced thus far is leading us to a restoration of his original plan. If not what's the point of anything ? What if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned and mankind hadn't lost eternal life as indicated by the Bible ? I see all the empty planets in space and wonder what will they be used for in the future. Maybe once things are straightened out here we will move forward to literally out of this world experiences we couldn't even imagine now with our limited vision .


 

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rookaponz,
I like what you said about children growing up and later realizing that the seemingly arbitrary punishment from the parents was motivated by their love for the child and a desire that he be ok. I have often thought that the Bible was written that way, too. Early on you see the relationship between God and Man as dictatorial and punitive like a child would view its parents, giving way to total pardon, forgiveness and love as the relationship comes of age with Jesus.

The second part of your post was like the beginning of Paul's thesis on Grace in Romans. He goes on to say that not only are we like spoiled children, but we are incapable of living up to any Godly notions of perfection. So God's only choice is to change the rules. And change it he does from Law (Mosaic covenant), to full pardon and love (Jesus' new covenant.).

So where there was once obligation and conditional love, there is now promise, hope, and unconditional love.

If the Old Testament is viewed from the point of view of the empty cross, its easy to see that it was the loving parent all along.

You have a nice insight into the Bible rook. God is Love. Thats all we really have to know. Keep spreading the Good News.
 

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Dr. Dilznick said:
It was implied, or at least that's how I read it:

"I think you need to come to terms with your ethnicity and your real place in this society." - Stronzo

Negroes are an interesting bunch. At first forced here at knifepoint upon sprawling boats and stacked upon each other in the darkened hull while adrift on the roaring Atlantic, they now come here of their own volition.

That one single line, even plucked from context, could I guess be interpreted to mean only one thing for me: That I am repulsed and offended by those who'd not see many fundamentalists (blacks in this case) who'd use that highly suspect reference source to base the use of blanket conemnation. Hell, I'm still coming to terms with my own ethnicity for that matter. I hold no other to a standard to which I'm not equally willing to hold myself. Be sure of it.

naughty and playainda336 are the only black Christian fundamentalists on this board as far as I know. Maybe you should talk to them. Either way, the argument is pointless.
naughty is a C. fundamtentalist???:eek: You're joking. I'd never have suspected in honesty. And as for playinda... I won't "playinta" that homophobe further.


We know that the Bible is a falsified document, not the result of godly inspiration but the works of mere mortals, some with good intentions, most with bad. You'd be surprised how uncomfortable people become when their religion is brought up, even if it's not done in an aggressive or disagreeable way. Ask the average Christian a legitimate question about his or her faith, and they usually don't want to talk about it anymore (I've seen this particular situation occur on no less than 20 occasions that I can think of). I guess it's "dangerous" to make people question (even a little bit) what they've been raised to believe.

It's in an effort to expose precisely what you write above that I initiated this thread Dilz. That's why (for many here) the argument is anything but 'pointless'.

Well, I think I've said my piece. I'll do my best not to over-exert myself.

Yes. Youhave said your piece well And you've said it well. Now for Christ's sake don't strain something.. :wink: :cool:
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Stronzo said:
naughty is a C. fundamtentalist???:eek: You're joking. I'd never have suspected in honesty.
naughty said:
[...] Coming from a fundamentalist background, this is a definite issue. First, I must say that what I do and what I believe have a bit if disparity. First, why am I here? That alone would raise eyebrows if known within my church circle. [...] In Romans I there is a whole list of sins which are decried .Yes, homosexuality is listed, but then so is fornication and adultery....
http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/27999-reconciling-imposition-white-mans-religion-2.html
 

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Dr. Dilznick said:

That's not a fundamentalist. That's someone who admits she comes from a fundamentalist background. I recall that post. It was heartfelt and topical.

and I quote:

naughty said:
Contrary to most stereotype ( some perpetuated by African Americans themselves) AA's tend to be rather conservative in their outlook. Facing the injustice of being denied basic civil rights, the subculture of homosexuality was for a large part seriously marginalized within a group who themselves had been marginalized. Parents feeling that the child already had enough strikes against him or her died a thousand deaths to find that their child was walking down that "firey path to hell". Like mental illness ( up until 1970 it was actually listed as one) the issue of homosexuality has long been a dirty little secret. With the exception of artists , writers actors and musicians whose gender bending joie de vivre could not be contained, it has been painfully suppressed . But where would we have been without Langston Hughes, Alain Locke, James Baldwin, Ma Rainey, Louise Beavers, Lil' Richard, etc. Their genius could not be denied, but their gender preferences were. Fear... plain and simple. In Romans I there is a whole list of sins which are decried .Yes, homosexuality is listed, but then so is fornication and adultery....

That's the insight of an intelligent woman. That's no fundie.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Stronzo said:
That's not a fundamentalist. That's someone who admits she comes from a fundamentalist background. I recall that post. It was heartfelt and topical.

That's no fundie.
We've talked. I was under the impression that she belongs (present tense) to a "fundamentalist" church. "Fundamentalist" as in the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Evangelical Christian. If by "fundie" you mean someone who is mean or disrespectful to those who are agnostic, gay or practice sex outside of marriage, etc., then no. Of course not. Yes, she's cool as fuck.

I wish she'd post in this thread. I figured that if I mentioned her name it might get her attention.
 

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Did you call,Baby Bro?

You know how I feel about getting involved in these threads. So often there is no easy answer and I prefer to read and ponder...







Dr. Dilznick said:
We've talked. I was under the impression that she belongs (present tense) to a "fundamentalist" church. "Fundamentalist" as in the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Evangelical Christian. If by "fundie" you mean someone who is mean or disrespectful to those who are agnostic, gay or practice sex outside of marriage, etc., then no. Of course not. Yes, she's cool as fuck.

I wish she'd post in this thread. I figured that if I mentioned her name it might get her attention.
 

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Thank you Stronzo,

I am glad to be an example of a loving fundamentalist...

Stronzo said:
That's not a fundamentalist. That's someone who admits she comes from a fundamentalist background. I recall that post. It was heartfelt and topical.

and I quote:



That's the insight of an intelligent woman. That's no fundie.
 

dreamer20

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rookaponz said:
I will look at the links you provided.
Will you really? You had a chance to look at them when they were posted in post #65, yet you did not. Are you reluctant to comment on the cruelty of God and the Hebrew tribe as illustrated in the OT? Am I to understand from this that you condone slavery and the other immoral acts mentioned at those links?

I think it's important to examine alternate viewpoints whenever possible before condemning God or painting him as a cruel taskmaster. Children often see their parents ways as harsh and unreasonable but when they mature and have a broader understanding , realize the wisdom in their parents actions..
I didn't paint that picture. The writers of the Bible did.
For example you would simply rebuke children for teasing someone.
In God's case he thought it fitting that the children be dismembered by bears. See II Kings Chapter 2 v 23, 24. Also the flash animation based on this incident at:


http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm

In the case of the Master who beats the slave scenario. My understanding of that is as follows...
My understanding is that it was cruel, inhumane and wrong. Fortunately the Christian abolitionists prevailed in their efforts and ended slavery.


What if everyone cast him aside...and the Bible was proven to be fake? Would our troubles will be over. Mankind would be free from God's tyranny and all would be well with the universe...Right ?
I would rather that everyone rebuke those dubious parts of the Bible. Your troubles will still be there but at least you will still have Jesus.


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Dr. Dilznick said:
We've talked. I was under the impression that she belongs (present tense) to a "fundamentalist" church. "Fundamentalist" as in the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Evangelical Christian. If by "fundie" you mean someone who is mean or disrespectful to those who are agnostic, gay or practice sex outside of marriage, etc., then no. Of course not. Yes, she's cool as fuck.

Yes. You and I have very different interpretations of the word "fundamentalist" and its connotations.

naughty said:
Thank you Stronzo,

I am glad to be an example of a loving fundamentalist...

You're entirely welcome love. Since we're on this topic and there appears to be a difference in how I view those I'd call fundamentalists and how you interpret your faith, I'd be interested to learn more about your take on the descriptive adjective. If you are so-inclined I'd be very interested to know how you can be a so-called "fundamentalist" and still look at things with the broad perspective you do naughty. Somehow it seems mutually exclusvie to me.

This link will tell you how I interpret the present-day Christian Fundamentalist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalist


Thanks.
 

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I would rather that everyone rebuke those dubious parts of the Bible. Your troubles will still be there but at least you will still have Jesus.


dreamer20[/quote]

Why do I feel like I was just repremanded ??
Anyway... I understand exactly what you are saying but I figure if there really is a God and he was able to create the universe (which we haven't even begun to undersand) He must have some reason for the actions I am puzzled by and he must know a couple more things than my puney ass self does. When I think of his capabilities compared to mine, I figure I better show a little humility.
In the case of the Bear ripping up the kids. Apparently from my research, they were teens up in a tree mocking and taunting his prophet callilng names (bald head) and telling him to go up (to heaven)aas e was trying to deliver God's message. I've met a few rotten teens that could use a dose of the ol' bear treatment. (kidding) I suppose sometimes we must seem like buzzing flies to him what with our ignorance and haughtiness. Seems like anything bad on this earth is caused by humans. Pollution, extinction,crime, global warming, stripped rain forrests,atomic bombs. Perhaps we are the monsters.
If the Bible is full of errors I wonder if there really is a Jesus and if there is, I hope in this instance the addage about the apple not falling far from the tree is also untrue. We surely don't need another monster pushing us around and providing those awful tropical fish, dolphins, kittens, Oranges, strawberries,waterfalls,sunsets and another chance...Like his dear old Dad did. Especially when we already have guys like the all knowing Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair taking care of things and keeping us all feeling so safe, secure and full of hope .
Also: I was able to review the websites you mentioned. Despite the hateful tone and foul language I was able to understand what the author was trying to say. However for every point I agreed with I found an alternate explaination to that same point as well. One thing I noticed is that the author had nothing to offer in terms of what he does believe and any good reasons for those beliefs. If he is correct in all he says, and he is an example of what happens when we cast aside our beliefs: we have no hope .
 

dreamer20

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rookaponz said:
He must have some reason for the actions I am puzzled by ...
Also: I was able to review the websites you mentioned. One thing I noticed is that the author had nothing to offer in terms of what he does believe and any good reasons for those beliefs. If he is correct in all he says, and he is an example of what happens when we cast aside our beliefs: we have no hope .
I shall help you with that puzzle, although Michael Kalapoulous should have already solved it for you. And where is this foul language of which you speak?
Here is the direct link to these excerpts from the book Biblical Religion The Great Lie by M.K.
the first discusses Abraham and the second Joseph

http://www.greatlie.com/files/PDF/3ABRAHAM_THE_CHALDEAN_AND_THE_SISTER_STING.pdf

http://www.greatlie.com/files/PDF/4JOSEPH_GOES_TO_EGYPT.pdf


dreamer20