the big 3 bailout

Discussion in 'Politics' started by surferboy, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. surferboy

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    so, nancy pelosi just said that they're not gonna give the big 3 a bailout unless they show a viable plan, and that they ened to establish accountability.

    why did no one ask for the plan from peoples like AIG, who end up partying with the money that was given to them?
     
  2. arrivaderciroma

    arrivaderciroma New Member

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    Let's use the billions to convert the car factories into windmill and solar factories.

    The car industry was closed down during WWII so we could make planes and tanks. We need to catch up with the Europeans and Japanese who are sending their solor and wind technologies here fast, so they can capture our markets and our dollars. If we let them do it we'll never overcome their lead.

    We can use that bail-out money to support the workers, scientists and engineers. We must fire the auto executives. Underwrite the entire project with Exxon/Mobile profits. Go back to making cars when we're energy independent.

    Yeah!
     
  3. Flashy

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    because AIG is far more important in the grand scheme of finance than the Big 3.

    AIG insured over 420 billion dollars worth of the bank debt held by European Banks with their CDS.

    when AIG failed, and their credit rating tanked, it threw not only this country into chaos, but had the potential to bring down the european banking system too. A bailout was vital not just for AIG's business ramifications in the states, but also in europe, and by default, the world.

    The Big 3 is not very important in the grand scheme of things.
     
  4. VeeP

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    It's pretty simple, really: they're making this up as they go along. The real stunner was hearing Barney 'Fannie and Freddie are solid' Frank say "we need to be more careful with this $25 billion than we were with the $750 billion". :eek:

    Seeing the cast of characters: Pelosi, Reed, Schumer, Dodd, Frank standing there acting as if they're in control really made me fear for our future.
     
  5. Pitbull

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    Some info about how AIG's problems were causing new problems.

    Credit Crisis May Force Metro to Pay Millions - washingtonpost.com

    http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN3042716420081031

    Washington DC Metro Transit had a loan and AIG was involved with guaranteeing the loan.
    When AIG got into trouble - the loan was technically in default and the lender was trying to collect a $40 million penalty payment. OUCH!

    I'm not sure if they were trying to collect the principle balance too.
    This was just one loan DC METRO had. They had others.
    So did other transit agencies and I guess other entities that affect our lives. Most of us have no idea unless something goes wrong. Even then many do not have the time or inclination to educate themselves because there is so much and it is so complicated.

    If I recall, and sorry - I don't have the time or inclination to look it up - don't we (The US government) now have a significant ownership stake in AIG as part of the deal. And I thought the $$ that went to AIG wasn't part of the $700 Billion bailout.

    One of the reasons I thought this bailout thing was a bad idea is that things were so complicated that making a decision over a week when taking a break from campaigning (remember the entire House and 1/3 of the Senate were up for reelection) was foolish.

    I still believe that.

    And the management of AIG and everyone else taking $$ from me should take a very large paycut and the expense account almost totally eliminated.
     
  6. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Yes, roughly a 1/3 of the $150 billion to AIG was ownership.



    I'm not sure if you saw - but all the Goldman execs declined thier bonuses this year - and each salary was $600,000. The CEO pocketed over $30 mil in 2007, so that was quite a cut.

    AIG should do the same. If fact, most all recipients of bailout dollars should voluntarily eradicate bonuses for '08 and '09.
     
  7. midlifebear

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    There was an amusing editorial piece in the NYTimes today or yesterday by Mitt Romney wherein he took advantage of the moment to raise the flag in memory of his father having taken the reigns of American Motors back in the early 60's. However, he failed to mention it all fell to shit by 1978 (or '77). However, I do agree that the BIG THREE should be allowed to die in bankruptcy and be absorbed by the evolving auto manufacturers who can use the various pieces and incorporate them into their production schemes. It's just unfortunate that so many auto workers and related auto parts workers will end up losing their jobs. But, if anyone noticed, few tears were shed when GMC quit producing Oldsmobiles -- the oldest Mark of American-made automobiles.

    Actually, what is left of the Rust Belt is in a good position to become the armature capital of the USA, creating new generation energy generating windmills and small turbines capturing energy from mountain streams and small rivers. Where there is a void there is always a good opportunity for a new business and jobs to grow. One would think there's still a good career in to be had working to clean up super fund sites. If Homer Simpson can find work that makes him glow in the dark, I'm certain many young 'Mericuhns can too.

    Anyone got a 1976 Pacer in good shape they'd like to sell?
     
  8. surferboy

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    also, iirc, these peoples wanting for be bailed out arrived in washington d.c. in private jets
     
  9. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    oh my god..........


    you are falling for the..... "we need to see a business plan".

    you are being spoon fed.

    these ppl run one of the 50 largest companies in the world.... do you honestly think, they just went up on the hill, and said "give us money... just because".

    fuck. seriously.

    this Pelosi and Reid... posturing to make it look like they are doing their due diligence and are not going to hand out money for the sake of it.

    let me guess... you are under 30, and haven't filed anything north of a 1040EZ.... got it. carry on.
     
  10. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    laughable...

    hmpf.... good thing we've got Pelosi and Reid making sure everything is on the up and up. yeah, yeah.... where's the business plan.

    let me explain this to you...

    they know FULL well this is a lost cause....

    they just want the big 3 on the record... so they have a safety net.

    fuck it... if they REALLY have the nads. screw em. don't give em the money.

    they need to fail. we need new blood. new automakers that are non-union, with a 40% non-national workforce. let Michigan rot. never liked the Wolverines to begin with ;-)
     
  11. ripsrips

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    This "Bailout" is just another big pile of SHIT!
     
  12. klaybourn

    klaybourn New Member

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    welkome to to the United Socialist States of America komrades!
     
  13. uniqueusername

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    The real kicker for me is that Pelosi and Reid, who have been politicians their entire lives, are passing judgment on the business plans of professional, experienced executives.

    I'm as opposed to the auto bailout as most people are, but Congressional Democrats have no right to act all high and mighty. The only reason they're even involved in this is because they receive so much money from the United Auto Workers. This isn't about preserving American industry, it's about preserving UNIONS.

    The Big 3 need to go into bankruptcy, reorganize, and disabuse themselves of labor contracts that make them completely uncompetitive with foreign manufacturers like Toyota and Honda.
     
  14. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    If you can't make a car that people want, then you need to go under.

    Any moron with an IQ of over 53 would have went, "Hey, Toyota and Honda are whooping our ass. What are they doing that we are not doing? Oh, they are making economical cars that still look cool." Then they would have went and made economical cars.

    Instead they went, "Hmpf. Stupid Asians. Let's make vehicles that get less than 10mpg!" Then they went and made Suburbans, Hummers, and F350s.

    Business plan or not - I don't care - no bailout.
     
  15. curious n str8

    curious n str8 New Member

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    I for one do believe that we do need an American Auto Industry. The big 3 perhaps not. Same goes for the banking and mortgage Industry let them all fail and rebuild new Industries with new rules etc... Perhaps the unions have now run their course and are not needed anymore.
     
  16. surferboy

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    well, if they weren't spending money on private jets and "company business meetings" (or, as it's really called, throwing a party in arizona) then i'd have a lot more confidence in them.



    eh brah, i hope you're gonna give them back your social security check. and deny yourself of medicare. those are socialist as well (that sentence could have been put together better, but it's 4:30am...)
     
  17. Nrets

    Nrets Member

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    This whole situation, the entire financial disaster, the failing auto industry, it is because of our greed.

    GM greedily spent money when the stock was worth a boisterous 30 dollars plus per share.
    The company was worth over 100 billion and as a result they had enormous easily accessible lines of credit.
    As long as they had this value, the credit would exist and they would be able to make and sell products to pay off bills.

    But just like everything else in America: The fed...the mortgage companies...Fanny and Freddie...AIG...Joe the fucking plumber....having credit for a rainy day was not good enough, GM needed to make use of it with big, bold, lavish statements. They made a 100 million dollar improvement on their Detroit headquarters in 2000. They made that one of a kind Cadillac 16 in 2004. They gave the CEO's jets and fat paychecks. They made cars that got shit gas mileage that sold well when gas was cheap and were easy to make with old technology.. but as gas skyrocketed, sales went flat. Now gas is falling...but the economy is weak and the sales needed for General Motors to appear robust enough to warrant investors to put the 80% of value that they took out in stocks back into the company, seems unlikely.


    Compounding their problems is the bills they need to pay for benefits. The UAW worked it out years ago that workers of the big three would recieve pensions and healthcare.

    The big three insisted on paying these expences out of pocket because the other option would have been a nationalized tax on cars that would hurt sales.

    Now they are aching because they have to pay 75 dollars an hour after benefits while Honda and Toyota in non-unionized Kentucky and Alabama pay about $45.

    Most of Honda and Toyota's workers in America have not reached retirement age...so pensions are a non-issue for them at this time.

    But you know what really grinds my gears?

    If the United States government hadn't been so fucking greedy in the first place and created national healthcare instead of starting war after war after war to stimulate the economy....we wouldn't be in this fucking mess.

    GM wouldn't have to pay so much in benefits. And any billionaire could come buy the company tomorrow and restructure it for whatever endeavor they wish to pursue...think about it...is it not strange that no one has bought GM. General Motors has a market value of 2 billion as of today. General Motors. Del Taco is worth 1 billion.
    But no one is buying GM.

    With all this weight of responsibility and debt...no one wants the company.
     
    #17 Nrets, Nov 21, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008
  18. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    I wouldn't mind. I am far more frugal with my money than my government ever will be.

    Besides, haven't you heard that all that may not be available to people our age anyways?
     
    #18 D_Chocho_Lippz, Nov 21, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008
  19. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    Disagree. Before the health care was molested by our government, doctors and patients had no problems figuring out payments. Health care was affordable. (Plus people went to the doctor when they needed it, not every Saturday like a bunch of hypochondriacs).

    I think we should look back at what worked and go back to that - get government out of health care.
     
  20. Nrets

    Nrets Member

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    Well we are going to just have to agree to disagree. Your libertarian stances will always clash with my socialist stances. I don't usually get so flagrantly socialist...but those were my true colors, I suppose. The world is in really bad shape right now, and when things get real, true colors emerge.

    This is where a smart person would stop talking...but I am not that smart. So I will carry on.

    In principal I love the idea of no government.

    If we pull it off, great.

    I even like the idea of deindustrialization.

    But as long as doctors exist keeping some people healthy, I believe that option should be available to everyone.

    And if that option is available, it needs to be regulated, not privatized, because as long as there are emergency rooms and poor people, there will be poor people who end up in said emergency rooms screaming for help. And when they can not pay, Uncle Sam ends up footing the bill.

    I definitely agree that people need to go to the doctor less.
    Everyone needs to consume less in general.
    If you don't need a new watch...don't buy a new watch. If your car runs...keep it...If you have a cold...stay home
     
    #20 Nrets, Nov 21, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008
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