The Case for Circumcision. (Click and be convinced)

SteveHd

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My mother worked in a dentist's office in the 1950s and it was common for people to have their teeth pulled and replaced with dentures. ...
Even if it was a bad idea, it was adults making medical decisions for themselves. Bad advice never goes out of style.
They actually thought that it would reduce the aggravation and pain of dealing with cavities, caps, root canals, discoloration, etc.
You object to preventative surgery?:rolleyes:
Time has pretty much proved that wrong (at least for people who go to the dentist a couple times per year), but circumcision is something else entirely.
Yeah circumcision upon infants who can't consent to it is completely different.
It is well-established that circumcision reduces the transmission of HIV from women to men by 60% .
Well established? I see you've been reading circlist.
The way things are going, that can mean the difference between survival and extinction for some regions of the world.
ROTFLMAO!!!
If infection rates for HIV can be affected so much, then it is not exactly rocket science to conclude that other infectious diseases will have a lower transmission rate for circumcized men.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Jeffin, the readers of the circ. threads needed a good laugh, thanks.
 

Dave NoCal

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Jeff,
If it were to be established that none of your medical/hygiene pro-circ arguments are valid (never mind that no medical association on the planet recommends it on a medical basis), would you still be in favor of RIC? My sense of it is that you would remain in favor for reasons that are completely different and not being discussed.
 

SpoiledPrincess

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It is not well established that circumcision reduces the transmission of HIV, that whole study was flawed from start to finish and has been disputed by many experts and also contradicted by other studies. For a start how did they control who they were having sex with? Why didn't they take into account cultural practices? Why wasn't it staged in America (because they couldn't get the figures to tally)? The Rakei study in Uganda showed no circumcised men contracting HIV during it's course but fails to mention that more than a third of the circumcised men who applied to be on the trial already had HIV and thus weren't admitted to it, so all the men in the study had been selected in advance for less than average susceptablity to HIV. There are so many other things wrong with this study that I haven't mentioned them because it would take an enormously long and complicated write up to do so. Money is behind the wide spread pushing for the acceptance of this 'study'.

I too fail to see how anyone could think circumcision would have any effect on any infectious diseases that weren't directly linked to one's cock. Although I'm sure someone can come up with a study that shows circumcision halves your chances of catching a cold :)
 

Dazza

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thankyou spoiled princess for so eloquently answering the issue around HIV and circumcision.


of course if the bush administration would start funding the use of condoms then perhaps HIV rates would fall also, but seeing as they think that abstaining is the only way I doubt that will change anytime soon.


Yup. I still vote to ban it.
 

B_dxjnorto

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but circumcision is something else entirely.
Why? It makes a bloody mess of a brand new penis.

Here's my bloody mess link again:



It's our sanitized version of prehistoric blood ritual. The main difference is that they use sterilized tools. It's astonishing that doctors and parents collude on this and that it's not already illegal.

It's a holdover from when the high priests of "science" took over from practitioners of superstition and blood letting. And a sad misapplication and misanthropic misunderstanding of a modern advanced education.
 
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B_All4show

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This thing about circumcision is very new to me, but the argument against seems really dumb. To give credit to the person that started the thread, what is the big deal.

First off, only someone that will probably not be having kids (gay) calls circumcision a Fetish. How is that term is thrown around seems ridiculous.

Second, making decisions for your kids occurs on all levels everyday. So disguising your agenda by saying let the kid make the choice when they are 18 is BS.

Third, what is the agenda? Anti-religion.

BTW, interesting article about the uncircumcised on Drudge today:

Washing After Sex May Raise H.I.V. Risk


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/health/21hiv.html?ex=1345348800&en=a2282c6dc7c0b5a6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
 

horneyoldguy

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The Long And Painful History Of Circumcision
[FONT=Verdana,]by Paul A.[/FONT]


Thisw article was found on


http:The Penis And Male Reproductive Healthhttp://www.altpenis.com/penis_news/circumcision.shtml



If you're reading this there is a 50 percent probability that your genitals have been mutilated. If you were reading this twenty years ago that figure would be over 80 percent. Between 1950 and 1980, almost ninety percent of newborn babies in the English speaking world were circumcised within days of their birth. Times have changed and this once ubiquitous practice is now generally discouraged in most Western countries (the United States, as usual, being the exception).

Jews circumcise their male infants shortly after birth and Muslim boys are circumcised in adolescence, for spiritual reasons; although how hacking off part of someone's dick contributes to their spirituality is not really explained. Melanesians, Polynesians and indigenous Australians circumcised their young men as an adolescent rite of passage; something like a ritualized form of hazing.
The Spanish conquistadors put an end to circumcision in Aztec rituals, believing any attention paid to the genitals to be sinful. But so many disparate cultures practice or have practiced circumcision, that one is driven to wonder if there isn't some inborn human proclivity to hack off chunks of our dicks. Where does the idea come from? Were a bunch of Neanderthals hanging around the campfire feeling bored and looking for something new to do? Did some bright young spark jump up and shout "I know, let's mutilate our dicks!"?
We all know that guys are obsessed with their dicks, but is it possible that the same bizarre idea would occur independently to scores of isolated tribes and cultures scattered around the globe? Maybe yes, maybe no. There are competing theories and seeing as there is no real evidence to support these views, we can safely throw aside academic caution and speculate freely.
The apparent universality of circumcision has led some to conclude that the practice predates the original exodus of Homo Sapiens out of Africa. There is considerable genetic and archaeological evidence that the entire human race is descended from one tribe that crossed from the horn of Africa to the Arabian Peninsula about 125,000 years ago. If these early humans practiced circumcision, then it's not surprising to find so many isolated cultures continuing the practice. After all, if intelligent, educated, modern men can subject their infant sons to genital mutilation for the singular reason that "he should look like me", then it's not absurd to think that such a strange practice would be passed on through the generations in more primitive cultures. The fact that circumcision is widely practiced in East Africa has been offered in support of this hypothesis.
But there's also good reason to think the concept of hacking off one's foreskin may have arisen independently amongst different cultures for different reasons. The first and most obvious is as a token of sacrifice. There seems to be a universal tendency among humans to offer sacrifices to the gods. The concept of reciprocity is deeply ingrained in our psyches. If the gods have total power over us and provide for us, then what can we offer them in return? A couple of primo sheep might do in good times, but what do you do after a couple of years of drought? It's obvious the Gods are pissed off, but how to appease them? They've been offered boffo sheep, cattle, maybe a virgin or two; and it still hasn't rained. What's left? Well... how about some blood, pain and the permanent loss of pleasure? That should do the trick! When you think about it in this context, the idea of circumcision becomes less absurd. The foreskin is probably the only part of our anatomy that we can lose without incurring serious hardship. The book of Genesis makes frequent references to sacrifice. God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son but relents and requires Abraham instead to make a sacrifice of his foreskin. Seems like a good trade-off to me. And hey, Abraham was in his nineties at the time and probably past his prime; what did he care?
Another rationale is as an initiation rite. Nothing bonds brothers quite like blood and pain. This happens in battle of course but battles are costly; carving out chunks of your own flesh, less so. Many tribes that practice circumcision also practice a particularly toe-curling ritual called subincision. Subincision involves slicing open the underside of the penis (sub, as well as, circum). Who came up with this idea we'll never know but it's easy to see how such an idea would arise. G. Gordon Liddy used to hold his hand over an open flame to test himself. Teenagers get the most sensitive parts of their bodies pierced. It's a display of machismo. If you want to be part of the club you must prove yourself. That's why hazing rituals and other acts of monumental stupidity are enshrined and defended as bonding rites. Although in our culture, I suspect if some guy suggested subincision as a bonding ritual he'd be voted out of the club. There's also the idea of circumcision as an act of purification. This fits in with the Arabic/Semitic equating of sexual pleasure with evil. One must rid oneself of excessive pleasure and the foreskin is a good place to start! The same logic lies behind female circumcision, which involves the removal of not just the female foreskin (clitoral hood), but the clitoris as well. It's not surprising that some cultures which practice male circumcision as a purification ritual (Arabic and East African mostly), also practice female circumcision. There's no reference to circumcision in the Qur'an but there is in the Sunnah (the second source of Islamic law after the Qur'an) which details the customs of Mohammed and the culture in which he was raised. It's interesting to note that while purity is offered as the rational for Islamic circumcision, the practice of it is steeped in the ethos of male bonding. This is something that goes back a long way.
There are no doubt other reasons why primitive cultures embraced circumcision. One of them could have been health. The rationale behind twentieth century circumcision was health related and there are a number of problems - usually infections - that can arise in the uncircumcised penis. From a purely pragmatic viewpoint, we may be better off without our dear foreskins, and it's not inconceivable that some tribes may have come to circumcision by this route.
However it got started, the practice of circumcision seems destined to remain with us. Cultures have their rationales - even if they're not rational. I think it's a good thing that the practice of universal prophylactic circumcision is on the wane. I was part of a generation that had their foreskin removed as a matter of medical expediency and I'm sorry it happened. That said, I'd prefer that to having it sawed off with a stone knife in some initiation ritual; and I'm doubly glad I never had to submit to a subincision. And I'd wouldn't let some aging biker chick with a mullet and an AC-DC tattoo push a burning needle through my knob either. Some expressions of machismo just ain't worth it.
 

arktrucker

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Being uncut in american is slightly more uncommon now and when your sons are men will be even more so, you can easily tell a woman what to do with a foreskin. If you look at the threads on here there seem to be slightly more women who prefer a foreskin than who prefer a cut guy. Why would you deprive your sons of the sensation you enjoy? They can always make that decision for themselves when they become sexually active, and what happens if they grow up and decide they hate that they were cut? You can't take it back. God forbid it but what if the circumcision goes wrong?
I think a young guy is more likely to be judged on how good he is at oral, at kissing, at touching a woman's body than if he can last for longer than 20 minutes, take it from a woman an hour of humping away is boring.

Princess... I agree with you here. There are several accounts of circumcisions going wrong. About 9-10 years ago, in one week, at Northside Hospital in Atlanta, two boys were circumcised by someone who was using a piece of equipment that is not normally used and burned their penis' off completely. What happens to them? They had no choice in this matter. And all the money in the world from law suits can't replace what has been taken away.
If you've read any of my posts about circumcision, you'll know that I am totally against it. If you're going to have it done, it's your choice. But, let it be a CHOICE. A choice for the person who's penis is going to be put into peril.
 

SteveHd

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Looks like a long and poorly written post from a blogger.
Indeed it is long and perhaps "poorly written," but my take is that it's mostly accurate. I've read about the history of circ. elsewhere and very little in this article clashes with what I've previously read.

An example of one of the few things that was new to me was:
The Spanish conquistadors put an end to circumcision in Aztec rituals, ...
Plausible but seems like it would be difficult stop an entrenched ritual then just as today it's difficult to stop an entrenched ritual known as you-know-what.
 

B_All4show

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Indeed it is long and perhaps "poorly written," but my take is that it's mostly accurate. I've read about the history of circ. elsewhere and very little in this article clashes with what I've previously read.

He was just guessing and there was really no insight. I think he was trying to discover the root cause of circumcision. Most of "God's" laws have some other reason rooted in history. Istead he just throughout a bunch of stuff. It was not researched at all, I could have written the "Article" on the back of a napkin.
 

SteveHd

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This thing about circumcision is very new to me, but the argument against seems really dumb.
One of the arguments: Don't cut an infant's healthy flesh when there's no medical indication. Is that dumb?
To give credit to the person that started the thread, what is the big deal.
Ezra_Pound?
First off, only someone that will probably not be having kids (gay) calls circumcision a Fetish. How is that term is thrown around seems ridiculous.
The word "fetish" is used mostly by the cut mongers. And it's getting old.
Second, making decisions for your kids occurs on all levels everyday.
Other medical decisions -- such as vaccinations -- have proven benefits. By proven I mean: clinical random-verses-control studies showing benefits and safety. Infant circumcision has none, to date. The futilationists are still searching however. They've been searching for over 100 years.
So disguising your agenda by saying let the kid make the choice when they are 18 is BS.
There's no "disguised" agenda. *I suspect he's alluding to anti-Semitism.*
Third, what is the agenda? Anti-religion.
Using that logic, the people who oppose smoking are "anti-business". *Uh huh, my suspicion is confirmed.*
BTW, interesting article about the uncircumcised on Drudge today: // Washing After Sex May Raise H.I.V. Risk
From article:
Dr. Sande, who was not involved in the study, said, “There is still so much we don’t understand about the complex factors that influence H.I.V. transmission in the genital tract, but this important study will help.”
Unusual honesty.
 

Man-thango

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Maybe if people would stop fucking without condoms regardless of being cut or not we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm still pissed at my parents' decision to have me cut and the poor excuse they gave. "It's easier to clean" -my ass!!! Another reason why I'm for female circ. Just wish it were institutionalized here in the U.S. so women could see how it violates our bodies and spirit.
 

SteveHd

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Man-thango, try not to be pissed at your parents. I figure they made a decision based on advice from others, mostly likely in the medical profession. Instead, be angry at the advocates of R.I.C. some of whom post in the circ. threads.
 

B_dxjnorto

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can't we all just get along?
Not until people quit thinking it's normal to cut parts from other people's genitals, men and women - turning many of them into life long proponents of the surgery. Not knowing different is not the same as saying there is no difference.

You gotta take a stand sometime, somewhere, someplace Finn. What was it Margaret Meade said ~ Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

Change is a natural part of life, as the natural penis is to the man.