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The causes of homosexuality
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The quote is indeed Irving Bieber, but still spewing this claptrap as late as 1976. The source is his article 'Psychodynamics and Sexual Object Choice' in Contemporary Psychoanalysis #12 (1976), p.366-369.
Noteworthily, several of Bieber's works have been reprinted since his death in 1991 by groups promoting 'conversion therapy' (the doctrine of changing homosexuals into heterosexuals), including NARTH. Needless to say, these groups seldom acknowledge how old Bieber's writings are, or the context in which they were originally published.
someone told me a theory today - apparently, a lot of gay guys are younger brothers. the older brother, during pregnancy, secretes a hormone making it less likely that any other males born, from that mother, will reproduce. (i don't know what the source of that is). also, i've heard that (i know, they're only "i heard...") it can be due to lack of a male authority or role model in the family.
Principessa
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It's the flouride in the water... :tongue:
We don't
True! That's why it bothers me when I see things like this being brought up again and again.We don't - those looking for a 'cure' do...
Rikter8
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Thank you Alex (nice to see you! page reference and all - you haven't changed :biggrin1
- I spent about 5 mins looking for that before giving up - you're a better man than me :smile:
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D_Gunther Snotpole
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I’ve always been very suspicious of explanations of the causes of homosexuality that blame the nurturing style of either parent.
FWIW, my father was often distant and harsh, and could therefore fit the classic Freudian account of the role a father plays in his son’s homosexual development.
But my nephew is gay – and you could not have found a boy who grew up under the loving hand of a kinder or more empathetic father.
When I look at the gay people of my acquaintance, I just don’t see much of a pattern with respect to the parenting they received.
But when you think of it, it seems not unnatural that many fathers, particularly of the old school (and I suppose they are slowly disappearing), would find more to love in a ‘conventional’ son. And some fathers, faced with a son who needed more masculine nurturing, might find that requirement a bit frightening.
In both cases, arguably, the result might be an apparently less accepting and loving father.
(Problem here is that many gay men have appeared altogether masculine all their lives, and some quite straight men have been of more ‘willowy’ disposition. [Please, I’m just joking a bit here … no need to take real exception to my ironically chosen adjectives.])
Then there are the slight physical differences between straight males and gay males, at least as purported in certain studies. (Some have found that the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the hypothalamus is thinner among gay males than among their straight counterparts.)
Twin studies have been interesting. If you have a gay male with an identical twin, according to one study, that twin had a 52 percent chance of also being gay. Among non-identical twins, who have similar though non-identical environmental influences and share much less genetic material than identical twins, that likelihood was, in what I admit was a rather small study, a mere 22 percent. And the adoptive brother of a gay male (a brother who shared no genetic material) had only an 11 percent chance of being gay himself.
Hemicudap mentions that some researchers have suggested that low levels of testosterone in the womb may be a cause of homosexuality. (Alas, the possessor of this gallery seems to have been exposed to a mother-gratifying superfluity of testosterone during his gestation.)
I personally think that the genetic and gestational influences quite outweigh the environmental ones.
My guess only, of course.
No practical importance to this question, but it is interesting.
I’m staying tuned.
BTW, I salute the reemergence above of a cherished specimen of a species one had feared extirpated in these here parts ... Hedonicus teutonicus.
FWIW, my father was often distant and harsh, and could therefore fit the classic Freudian account of the role a father plays in his son’s homosexual development.
But my nephew is gay – and you could not have found a boy who grew up under the loving hand of a kinder or more empathetic father.
When I look at the gay people of my acquaintance, I just don’t see much of a pattern with respect to the parenting they received.
But when you think of it, it seems not unnatural that many fathers, particularly of the old school (and I suppose they are slowly disappearing), would find more to love in a ‘conventional’ son. And some fathers, faced with a son who needed more masculine nurturing, might find that requirement a bit frightening.
In both cases, arguably, the result might be an apparently less accepting and loving father.
(Problem here is that many gay men have appeared altogether masculine all their lives, and some quite straight men have been of more ‘willowy’ disposition. [Please, I’m just joking a bit here … no need to take real exception to my ironically chosen adjectives.])
Then there are the slight physical differences between straight males and gay males, at least as purported in certain studies. (Some have found that the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the hypothalamus is thinner among gay males than among their straight counterparts.)
Twin studies have been interesting. If you have a gay male with an identical twin, according to one study, that twin had a 52 percent chance of also being gay. Among non-identical twins, who have similar though non-identical environmental influences and share much less genetic material than identical twins, that likelihood was, in what I admit was a rather small study, a mere 22 percent. And the adoptive brother of a gay male (a brother who shared no genetic material) had only an 11 percent chance of being gay himself.
Hemicudap mentions that some researchers have suggested that low levels of testosterone in the womb may be a cause of homosexuality. (Alas, the possessor of this gallery seems to have been exposed to a mother-gratifying superfluity of testosterone during his gestation.
)I personally think that the genetic and gestational influences quite outweigh the environmental ones.
My guess only, of course.
No practical importance to this question, but it is interesting.
I’m staying tuned.
BTW, I salute the reemergence above of a cherished specimen of a species one had feared extirpated in these here parts ... Hedonicus teutonicus.
Dave NoCal
Superior Member
"Since 1962 when our volume was published, I have interviewed about 1,000 male homosexuals and 50 pairs of parents of homosexuals. The classic pattern was present in more than 90% of cases. In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual. I have concluded that there is a causal relationship between parental influence and sexual choice (p. 368)."
This certainly was the case in my family.
This certainly was the case in my family.
kalipygian
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northwestone
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someone told me a theory today - apparently, a lot of gay guys are younger brothers. the older brother, during pregnancy, secretes a hormone making it less likely that any other males born, from that mother, will reproduce. (i don't know what the source of that is) - originally posted by ruperty
my eldest brother is exclusively gay, I have a middle brother who is completely straight, and I'm the youngest and my sexuality is a little more fluid....so dunno who had this theory, but like most, it's a load of nonsense.
perhaps we should try looking for a cause of heterosexuality? I wonder which right-wing homophobic extremist group would fund that.....
as with most 'research' into contentious racial social sexual and economic areas, there's an agenda here, if you can 'prove' a cause you stand to make financial or political gains.
the tobacco industry spends billions of dollars on research to prove there's no link between smoking and ill health....and even more money trying to cover up the results of the research that says there is a link!
what's different is the motivation. with tobacco it's money and fear of losing it. with the queers and the blacks etc, the motivation is hatred and fear.
one only needs to research the cause of something if one thinks it's a problem.
the world is brimming with war, corruption, poverty, global warming fear and violence, does it really matter who you fall in love with?
my eldest brother is exclusively gay, I have a middle brother who is completely straight, and I'm the youngest and my sexuality is a little more fluid....so dunno who had this theory, but like most, it's a load of nonsense.
perhaps we should try looking for a cause of heterosexuality? I wonder which right-wing homophobic extremist group would fund that.....
as with most 'research' into contentious racial social sexual and economic areas, there's an agenda here, if you can 'prove' a cause you stand to make financial or political gains.
the tobacco industry spends billions of dollars on research to prove there's no link between smoking and ill health....and even more money trying to cover up the results of the research that says there is a link!
what's different is the motivation. with tobacco it's money and fear of losing it. with the queers and the blacks etc, the motivation is hatred and fear.
one only needs to research the cause of something if one thinks it's a problem.
the world is brimming with war, corruption, poverty, global warming fear and violence, does it really matter who you fall in love with?
In this case both my posts were dismissed outright by one member and another told me to move the topic to its own thread and, as nobody replied to them, I did so.
I'm disappointed and saddened that what I contributed was rejected. This isn't the LPSG I know.
Dave NoCal
Superior Member
Actually, since this is kind of interesting, I'd like to add a further comment regarding Freud and his ideas. Psychoanalytic theory is an interest of mine and I have published on that topic in very respectable peer reviewed journals.
Freud has a mixed record on the issue of homosexuality. My take is that he was uncharacteristically supportive, for the time, and parts of his writings were appropriated by psychoanalists who moved to America, notably Brill. to pathologize homosexuality in ways he never intended. Freud was a social radical in many ways. He was outspokenly in favor of full legal protections and rights for homosexuals. In some of his writings he addressed the nature/nurture issue and concluded that nature was probably the stronger factor. He wrote a very sensitively worded letter to a woman who inquired about him "helping" her adult son. His response was that homosexuality was not a pathological condition and that, in fact, some of the most important contributors to human civilization ahd been so. He mentioned Leonardo da Vinci, as an example.
The thing is that he was trying to establish his theories, which were heavily based on the issue of how children connect with their parents, so that was emphasized more frequently. I have a published paper on this topic but posting even parts of it would reveal my identity. If there is any actual interest, I can put together a collection of Freud quotes on the topic.
About him having been addicted to cocaine, this is true. The surrounding context is that he developed bone cancer in his jaw relatively early in life, forty-two, if I recall correctly, and had repeated surgeries almost every year to remove more cancerous bone. This split his jaw so he had a series of ever larger wooden prostheses to keep it in it's correct shape. That he didn't die of infection in the first three days is a miracle. Remember, this was well before the advent of antibiotics. This went on for nearly thirty years! Cocaine is a local anesthetic, and that is how his addiction got started. Compounding this was his lifelong depression. It is thought that cocaine became his antidepressant medication.
By the time he was seventy nine, he had practically no jaw, couldn't eat, was severely malnourished, and in constant pain. However, he was quite lucid. It was revealed a few years ago that this was the point at which he, his personal physician, and his daughter consulted and the decision was that he would be given a lethal dose of morphine. That was done.
My point on this is that Freud had a writing career of about fifty years. He modified a number of his positions many times.
Freud has a mixed record on the issue of homosexuality. My take is that he was uncharacteristically supportive, for the time, and parts of his writings were appropriated by psychoanalists who moved to America, notably Brill. to pathologize homosexuality in ways he never intended. Freud was a social radical in many ways. He was outspokenly in favor of full legal protections and rights for homosexuals. In some of his writings he addressed the nature/nurture issue and concluded that nature was probably the stronger factor. He wrote a very sensitively worded letter to a woman who inquired about him "helping" her adult son. His response was that homosexuality was not a pathological condition and that, in fact, some of the most important contributors to human civilization ahd been so. He mentioned Leonardo da Vinci, as an example.
The thing is that he was trying to establish his theories, which were heavily based on the issue of how children connect with their parents, so that was emphasized more frequently. I have a published paper on this topic but posting even parts of it would reveal my identity. If there is any actual interest, I can put together a collection of Freud quotes on the topic.
About him having been addicted to cocaine, this is true. The surrounding context is that he developed bone cancer in his jaw relatively early in life, forty-two, if I recall correctly, and had repeated surgeries almost every year to remove more cancerous bone. This split his jaw so he had a series of ever larger wooden prostheses to keep it in it's correct shape. That he didn't die of infection in the first three days is a miracle. Remember, this was well before the advent of antibiotics. This went on for nearly thirty years! Cocaine is a local anesthetic, and that is how his addiction got started. Compounding this was his lifelong depression. It is thought that cocaine became his antidepressant medication.
By the time he was seventy nine, he had practically no jaw, couldn't eat, was severely malnourished, and in constant pain. However, he was quite lucid. It was revealed a few years ago that this was the point at which he, his personal physician, and his daughter consulted and the decision was that he would be given a lethal dose of morphine. That was done.
My point on this is that Freud had a writing career of about fifty years. He modified a number of his positions many times.
D_Gunther Snotpole
Account Disabled
Actually, auncut, no two people have the same father ... even identical twins. Or at least, no two people have the same father-offspring relationship.
That's a point worth making.
But I don't want to push it too far, because I basically agree with you that the theory we're discussing doesn't hold much water.
D_Gunther Snotpole
Account Disabled
Yes, he seems far more intelligent to me than most of his followers.
And a very very gifted writer.
(I would be interested, Dave, in that list of Freud quotations you suggested you might put together.)
D_Gunther Snotpole
Account Disabled
Well, Jason, I'm sure that dreamer20 sincerely thought your notion merited another thread.
It wasn't a putdown at all.
I'd stake my life on it.
