The causes of homosexuality

sykray

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I am joining this thread rather late when most of what needs to said has been said. There are many valuable contributions and, short of jotting notes while re-reading 8 pages, I will say that Dave and Alex dealt with silly Irving Bieber quite well and Dave adequately defended poor Sigmund.

Bieber was not a scientific researcher but a prejudiced anecdotalist. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it often results from people seeing what they want to see and disregarding what doesn't fit.

As for sexual orientation, I think people would prefer it to be simple and categorical - either you're gay or straight. There are possibly as many unique sexual orientations as there are people. Human nature is complex.

Homosexual and heterosexual are adjectives most suitably and properly applied to describing behaviour. The incidence and prevalence of homosexual behaviour results from a mix of influences - cultural, societal, religious, political, interpersonal, circumstantial and personal. Homosexuality as a orientation or sexual preference is thereby a social construct. There are many cultures in which it is only a guy, who services another by sucking a penis or being fucked, that is regarded as homosexual (and usually the person has adopted a feminine gender role, also). The guy who puts his penis in another guy's mouth or rectum is not regarded as homosexual.

The prior step before research is carried out must be to agree on a definition of what is understood by and what constitutes "homosexual orientation". This a far from easy step.

Incidentally, I agree that many people who ask or answer the question "What causes homosexuality?" are motivated by homophobic agenda but there are many researchers who wish to know how it is that some people label themselves as gay, straight. bisexual, curious or whatever.

Way back in the early 80s a group of us pooled our thoughts and then we contributed chapters to a book called "The Theory and Practice of Homosexuality". The main thesis was written by two editors but reflected the group opinion that the "causes" of sexual orientations or preferences were probably multifactorial - some nature, some nurture.
Some factors might be necessary but not sufficient in themselves alone; other factors may be contributary but inessential; and yet others only had an influence in the presence of some other factor.
Labels were seen as social constructs and could shift with changes in a single society, changes in historical period and from culture to culture.

At the time I had just completed my doctoral thesis on how men label or "personally construct" their sexual orientation. Some men regarded themselves as A or B without ever having any sexual experiences with others. Some had much more experience of sex with one sex (even exclusively) but still thought of themselves as more attracted (even exclusively) to the other sex. Some said that they were 100% A but occasionally behaved B. Others self-labelled in accordance with their actual behaviour and emotional attractions.

In a society free from homophobia (and probably free from other prejudices and "-isms") then the question is only of academic interest and possibly irrelevant from a practical point of view.

In a homophobic society the question will be hijacked by those with a motive to pathologise or moralise or wish to "cure" or "prevent" or abort "unwanted and undesirable" foeti. Almost 30 years on, I am more interested in helping people to ditch internalised homophobia, guilt, anxiety, etc and to deal with familial and societal pressures to deny, suppress and avoid expressing their same-sex feelings and activities.
 

9InchGaz

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Typical human folly - an inability to see beyond the limits of our perceptions. A rational outlook prevents one from experiencing the irrational aspects of the universe - not everything can be ascribed to cause and effect. Turn linear time on its side and we have horizontal space.
The problem is in the question ("what causes homosexuality?"). Homosexuality is just something that IS.
 

B_tallbig

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Typical human folly - an inability to see beyond the limits of our perceptions. A rational outlook prevents one from experiencing the irrational aspects of the universe - not everything can be ascribed to cause and effect. Turn linear time on its side and we have horizontal space.
The problem is in the question ("what causes homosexuality?"). Homosexuality is just something that IS.
I think that homosexuality has a cause or causes but nobody knows it yet. Only nonsense expeculation.
 

hot-rod

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Nobody really know for sure the real causes of homosexuality.
There are no 'causes' of homosexuality. If there was, it's probably the same 'causes' that 'cause' heterosexuality. Nothing about your father or mother makes people gay or straight. It's all in your genes. It's the same 'causes' that cause supposed straight preachers to want to go out and suck a big ol dick.
 

hot-rod

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OK, I'm not gay, but I find it disturbing that one would look for a "cause". As if to insinuate it's a disease that can be treated. If this is true scientific research, then the scientific community really has lost it's marbles and there obviously isn't enough for them to do. As for the right wing nuts? There is nothing that will change them (Just think Fred Phelps' idiot crew).

My brother is gay and in all the years he has been out of the closet, it has never dawned on me that he "might change back". What the hell is that?

So my brother likes men. So what! Does it make him any less productve a member of society? Not in the slightest.

I hear crap like this and think what a waste of good college space to have educated those morons when real intellectuals are strruggling to get into good schools and make genuine strides towards bettering life for everyone. Gay or straight.
Osiris, I think your description of the situation is truly right on.The savages that we are, the human animal, have never found their way in the world. I don't know what God had planned for us in this life, but I don't humans have found it yet. Anywho, I agree with what you said. Peace
 

D_Adoniah Sheervolume

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When you take the cultural significance out of the picture, what does it matter what someones sexual disposition is?
If someone likes the color blue over the color red, does that make them less or more?
I think we put too much cultural significance on the gay/straight thing when it comes to sexuality, and as those cultural views are shaped by whatever arbitrary culture we are born into, it bears investigation.
I think we have to think outside the box and ask ourselves 'why does the sexual disposition of another human bother me so much?' If we find the answer to that question, I think there would be far less sexual prejudice.

such a thoughtful post from a straight man--thanks!

It is a classic Freud theory in which parents, i.e. a dominant mom and/or distant dad, are the ingredients needed to create a gay son. This theory has been discredited though. You are correct in saying it is crap.

the circumstances of my childhood were classic freud. also had a predominantly absent father (divorced when i was 5, only saw him on either summer or winter vacations until i moved to his place at 14).

There is a really big prolem with this theory. If being gay is caused by a uncaring father, then why aren't all my brothers gay as well. We all had the same father. And that would be true in every family. Crappy father would mean that ALL the sons would turn out to be gay. How many straight guys had detached fathers. I am afraid blaming the parents for sexual orientation is just psycobable.

my older brother is gay too. the eldest is autistic, and seems to be straight.

We don't - those looking for a 'cure' do... :confused::confused:

yeah; i love having sex with men, and can't imagine a life without naked men romping through it!
 

B_tallbig

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There are no 'causes' of homosexuality. If there was, it's probably the same 'causes' that 'cause' heterosexuality. Nothing about your father or mother makes people gay or straight. It's all in your genes. It's the same 'causes' that cause supposed straight preachers to want to go out and suck a big ol dick.
If it's all in our genes , that's maybe the cause but nobody knows for sure.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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I'm interested in hearing about possible causes of homosexuality ... and heterosexuality, and love of petunias, and addiction to Stephen King novels.
I see no harm in pursuing a search for the causes of all sorts of things.
And there may not be any agenda behind anyone's search other other than the human wish to understand things, other than human curiosity.
Of course, we have to make sure we don't delude ourselves about the ease of finding causes for things. We can fool ourselves into thinking we've reached solid understanding, obviously ... and have done so many times throughout history.
But the search in itself, I applaud.
There's too much PC thinking here, imo.
Maybe I'm naive.
 

Male Bonding etc

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dreamer20

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Stop the Search!! The cause has been found!!

Enjoy your tripe::rolleyes:

http://www.lpsg.org/1144988-post24.html


why does a person become gay? there a lot of reason but the main reason is that if he feels something missing about his masculinty and he will attract to someone with this missing characteristics for example if somone is skinny and he will watch a bodybuilders comepetition he will be threatened and may attract to men who had big mucsels because he feel that "oh... he is a real man and i am not" withhot thinking that may be most of the bodybuilders themselfs were use to be skinny and because of that they feel less masculine and that is why they start to build their body.
or if he dont have a lot of hair on his body' he will atractedto haiy person even if that person is fat ,short and have baby face...
 

B_sugarandspice

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I found this article online. This is not some right wing christian agenda, but a psychiatric council. I want you to read it and tell me what you think. I have an extremely hard time believing what they claim. I especially want you to comment on the part that says,

"Since 1962 when our volume was published, I have interviewed about 1,000 male homosexuals and 50 pairs of parents of homosexuals. The classic pattern was present in more than 90% of cases. In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual. I have concluded that there is a causal relationship between parental influence and sexual choice (p. 368)."

I can't convince myself that this is true. It sounds like crap.
oh for fuck sake most men (and women)do not have a constructive and loving father and EVERYONE should be gay according to that CRAP!
GAY IS NOT A DISORDER!!!
It is the natural order of things and it is especially to help raise and nurture children for the good of our species. Homosexuality is for the purpose of controlling over- breeding and to nurture the children in the communities they live in . The Homosexual MEN are the constructive ,loving fathers( adoptive ,the one who actually rears) in this country and around the world!!!
No fag ever told me to suck his dick for a burger.The trannys and drag queens hid me and fed me when I was starving and cold because I would NOT trick for food.
I had a queen for a neighbor who kept me from killing myself and made me laugh when she(he) called people "a pure wrinkled pussy")lol. I am fortunate that I have these memories from my childhood so I can say someone was there for me. Someone cared. I was allright.I can laugh instead of crying.
It was a gay man ( a flaming faggot as I called him and he was so thrilled and danced around and loved the compliment.I miss the 90's when these words did not represent hate) ten years later(in my 20's)who sat down with me to try to sort out why I was such a tortured soul and help me deal with -me.He taught me how to breathe,to take a deep breath and started me on the long road to recovery from PTSD. That means Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.It was this constructive ,loving gay man who saved my life. I was dying from the effects of PTSD and he helped me when no one else could or would.
Fortunately gay men are able to rear more kids and hopefully the other kids will not have to suffer like I did for so long. Gay men and women also bring their own children into the world and things will be more balanced in the world as the balanced and well cared for kids grow up and contribute to the community.
We should all be grateful to nature and the God's for homosexuality.
Without these constructive,loving gay men and women there are so many things that we would not have in this world.
Their is hope for us after all.
p,s. heres another thought.Are the gay parented kids shooting up the schools and malls? How many bullies grew up to be gay. I never got beat up by a kid with a gay parent!
 

B_ajaxgayguy7

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My father, a hard core alcholic was big on mental and physical abuse. I was not close to the man, and the day he died was the one of the best days of my life. So does a bad realtionship with your father make you gay? who knows.
 

AquaEyes11010

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Here's another way to look at the question: what makes some people dislike certain foods? Among my entire family, I am the only one who has always disliked cheese. As a child, when "eating what was put in front of me" was a necesity, I had to smother the taste of anything containing cheese with ketchup or whatever else was on hand. As I grew to make my own food choices, I realized that the taste sensation of cheese in my mouth was an entirely unpleasant one. Is it due to rearing? I don't know. My sisters grew up with the same foods and experiences but liked cheese. Is it genetic? I don't know. No other family member grew up with the same dislike.

Our brains get a basic blueprint for construction from our genes, the construction begins in utero and is subject to hormonal influences, and once born, these effects plus experiences shape the continued building and connection of neurons. Since our behaviors and personalities are rooted in our brain construction, a myriad of things could be responsible for the way we are. What if my brain is constructed in such a way that the sensation I feel when cheese is in my mouth is similar to another sensation which I have deemed negative? Would this explain why I don't like cheese? Would you be able to say my relatives feel the same sensation when they taste cheese, but in them, the sensation is similar to something else which they perceive to be a likable sensation? What's the difference? The fact remains that I don't like cheese, and finding the "cause" won't lead to a "cure." Additionally, there are foods I do enjoy that aren't among the foods enjoyed by others in my family. I grew up with a stronger preference for seafood than anyone else I know. Is that genetic? Is it hormonal? Is it environmental? It doesn't matter. I know what I like, and this life is mine, and why would I deny myself these simple pleasures when no harm comes to others in their pursuit?
:)
 

B_sugarandspice

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Actually, since this is kind of interesting, I'd like to add a further comment regarding Freud and his ideas. Psychoanalytic theory is an interest of mine and I have published on that topic in very respectable peer reviewed journals.

Freud has a mixed record on the issue of homosexuality. My take is that he was uncharacteristically supportive, for the time, and parts of his writings were appropriated by psychoanalists who moved to America, notably Brill. to pathologize homosexuality in ways he never intended. Freud was a social radical in many ways. He was outspokenly in favor of full legal protections and rights for homosexuals. In some of his writings he addressed the nature/nurture issue and concluded that nature was probably the stronger factor. He wrote a very sensitively worded letter to a woman who inquired about him "helping" her adult son. His response was that homosexuality was not a pathological condition and that, in fact, some of the most important contributors to human civilization ahd been so. He mentioned Leonardo da Vinci, as an example.

The thing is that he was trying to establish his theories, which were heavily based on the issue of how children connect with their parents, so that was emphasized more frequently. I have a published paper on this topic but posting even parts of it would reveal my identity. If there is any actual interest, I can put together a collection of Freud quotes on the topic.

About him having been addicted to cocaine, this is true. The surrounding context is that he developed bone cancer in his jaw relatively early in life, forty-two, if I recall correctly, and had repeated surgeries almost every year to remove more cancerous bone. This split his jaw so he had a series of ever larger wooden prostheses to keep it in it's correct shape. That he didn't die of infection in the first three days is a miracle. Remember, this was well before the advent of antibiotics. This went on for nearly thirty years! Cocaine is a local anesthetic, and that is how his addiction got started. Compounding this was his lifelong depression. It is thought that cocaine became his antidepressant medication.

By the time he was seventy nine, he had practically no jaw, couldn't eat, was severely malnourished, and in constant pain. However, he was quite lucid. It was revealed a few years ago that this was the point at which he, his personal physician, and his daughter consulted and the decision was that he would be given a lethal dose of morphine. That was done.

My point on this is that Freud had a writing career of about fifty years. He modified a number of his positions many times.
Fuckin' awesome thanks.best post I have read so far.
 

D_Harry_Crax

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Oh, merde, Dave NoCal, not Freud nonsense again. Read this:
_________________________________________________________________
Freud Is Widely Taught at Universities, Except in the Psychology Department

By PATRICIA COHEN
Published: November 25, 2007, The New York Times
Correction Appended

PSYCHOANALYSIS and its ideas about the unconscious mind have spread to every nook and cranny of the culture from Salinger to “South Park,” from Fellini to foreign policy. Yet if you want to learn about psychoanalysis at the nation’s top universities, one of the last places to look may be the psychology department.

A new report by the American Psychoanalytic Association has found that while psychoanalysis — or what purports to be psychoanalysis — is alive and well in literature, film, history and just about every other subject in the humanities, psychology departments and textbooks treat it as “desiccated and dead,” a historical artifact instead of “an ongoing movement and a living, evolving process.”

The study, which is to appear in the June 2008 issue of The Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Assocation, is the latest evidence of the field’s existential crisis. For decades now, critics engaged in the Freud Wars have pummeled the good doctor’s theories for being sexist, fraudulent, unscientific, or just plain wrong. In their eyes, psychoanalysis belongs with discarded practices like leeching.

But to beleaguered psychoanalysts who have lost ground to other forms of therapy that promise quicker results through cheaper and easier methods, the report underscores pressing questions about the relevance of their field and whether it will survive as a practice.

Given how psychoanalytic ideas have shaped the culture, the issue reverberates far beyond the tiny cluster of psychoanalysts. They worry that the gradual disappearance of psychoanalytic theory from psychology curriculums means that those ideas are bound to be applied incorrectly as new advances are neglected.

These worries led the psychoanalytic association to create a task force to increase undergraduates’ exposure to psychoanalytic ideas as both a theory and therapy.

The effort includes this new study, a computer-based analysis of course descriptions at 150 public and private institutions that are highly ranked in U.S. News and World Report’s college survey. It found that of the 1,175 courses that referenced psychoanalysis, more than 86 percent were offered outside psychology departments.

The study has some shortcomings — course descriptions are not comprehensive and there are no comparative surveys from previous years. Still, it roughly maps out where psychoanalytic ideas — which once dominated the field and from which all psychodynamic therapy springs — have found a home. And it is not, for the most part, in psychology departments.

Alice Eagly, the chairwoman of the psychology department at Northwestern University, explained why: Psychoanalysis is “not the mainstream anymore” and so “we give it less weight.”

The primary reason it became marginalized, Ms. Eagly, said, is that while most disciplines in psychology began putting greater emphasis on testing the validity of their approaches scientifically, “psychoanalysts haven’t developed the same evidence-based grounding.” As a result, most psychology departments don’t pay as much attention to psychoanalysis.

At the same time, wondrous advances, in neuroscience, for instance, have attracted new students and resources, further squeezing out psychoanalysis. Outside the university setting, the refusal of most insurance firms to pay for extended psychoanalytic therapy has limited its reach.

Scott Lilienfeld, a professor in the psychology department at Emory University, said, “I don’t think psychoanalysis is going to survive unless there is more of an appreciation for empirical rigor and testing.”

The humanities and social sciences have welcomed psychoanalysis without caveats. But the report complains of the wide gulf between the academic’s and the psychoanalyst’s approach and vocabulary, which has made their respective applications of Freud’s theories virtually unrecognizable to each other.

Scholars in the liberal arts have tended to use Freud as a springboard to examine issues and ideas never dreamt of in his philosophy — like gender studies, post-colonial studies, French postmodernism, Queer theory and so on.

“American clinical psychoanalysis, and analysis as represented in academe, are at risk to become two ships that pass in the night,” the report said. As an example, the report points to a course on psychoanalysis and colonialism, two terms most clinically based analysts would never have imagined in a single sentence.

“I honestly couldn’t understand what they’re talking about,” said Prudence Gourguechon, the psychoanalytic association’s incoming president, referring to those kinds of courses.

To Mr. Lilienfeld, much of postmodern theorizing has harmed psychoanalysis, saying it has “rendered claims even more fuzzy and more difficult to assess.”

But Mark Edmundson, a professor of English at the University of Virginia and the author of “The Death of Sigmund Freud,” said, “Freud to me is a writer comparable to Montaigne and Samuel Johnson and Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, writers who take on the really big questions of love, justice, good government and death.”

Scholars in the humanities, he said, use Freud “skeptically and provisionally and don’t think of him as scientist at all, but as an interpreter.”

Neither the split between the humanities and science, nor the warnings of the demise of psychoanalysis are as serious as they are often made out to be, said Jonathan Lear, a trained psychoanalyst and a philosopher who works on integrating the two fields at the University of Chicago.

Wanting to measure the effectiveness of psychoanalysis is natural, he said, but figuring out how to do so is not simple.

“Some of the most important things in human life are just not measurable,” he said, like happiness or genuine religious feeling. Freud, though, is particularly useful for gaining insights into questions of human existence. “There will be the discovery of problems that the standard ways don’t address,” he said, and then “there will be a swing back to Freud.”

Correction: December 2, 2007

An article last week about the decline in the teaching of psychoanalysis in college psychology departments misidentified the journal where a study of the trend will appear in June 2008. It is The Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association (JAPA), not The American Journal of Psychiatry.
 

simcha

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I think it might be because my Mom didn't cut my bananas in pieces and let me eat them whole. Also she gave me really large kosher dill pickles that I dearly loved. Yup, it's definitely her fault (and it almost always is the mother's fault anyway no matter what happens to us), too many phallic foods.