The church is in many ways homophobic-- your thoughts on this?

Brodie888

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I'm happy for people to believe whatever they like. My issue is when people use the Bible to persecute others. They can't.

The bible in it's current form is mostly a collection of stories that were collated, edited and translated to suit the needs of the Roman Empire in the 3rd century AD.

Men chose which parts of the bible to keep and which parts to disgard. We aren't talking about a word here or there. We are talking whole tomes. Look at our current politicians and church leaders. Would you trust any of them to not taint a powerful text with their bias to serve their own agenda?

So when someone claims bible as the indesputable word of god, it is not.
 

Tagood7

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I'm happy for people to believe whatever they like. My issue is when people use the Bible to persecute others. They can't.

The bible in it's current form is mostly a collection of stories that were collated, edited and translated to suit the needs of the Roman Empire in the 3rd century AD.

Men chose which parts of the bible to keep and which parts to disgard. We aren't talking about a word here or there. We are talking whole tomes. Look at our current politicians and church leaders. Would you trust any of them to not taint a powerful text with their bias to serve their own agenda?

So when someone claims bible as the indesputable word of god, it is not.
It was also said King Jame had male lovers.
 

Almost40

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Vedas or Theravada Tipitakas, or whatever holy books, do no good for me. I was raised to a religious family and church was on the weekly agenda, until i understood that these methods did nothing for me. Especially after having attended thousands of hours of church service. I dont regret it. I experienced it with my own eyes and understood the rubish i was fed throughout my childhood. Those preachings had nothing to do with reality and they never made me a better person, instead they tried topersuade me that non followers of the bible are sinners. In the words of The Electric Prunes, lord have mercy - and may I add spare me the brainwash... The only good part was some particular choir chants that put me in a deep trance. It was all that mattered during my last "pure" church days. I never paid attention to the words but the music was so thrilling. Just for the kick:
 
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Brodie888

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It was also said King Jame had male lovers.

Probably more to the point is that each of the denominations have come about because people got together and decided that they would take their own interpretation of God. Usually the split has occured for political reasons.

It's pure arrogance that any can tell people they are living their life wrong.
 
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ar49out

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The church’s are going to run for cover if the Human Geome DNA project identifies a “GAY” gene, as this would also mean that gay people are made in his image, watch the denial and fall out if that ever happens.
There are 11 commandments, Jesus said “One other commandment do I give you, Love your neighbour as yourself”. Always amazed at the lack of compassion and love to our fellow men displayed by main stream religion, wonder how they believe they will get through the gates of heaven. Sure to have ignited a fire storm, not my intention, just an observation.
 

simbablk

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I see this thread has been resurrected, so I'll respond again...

I think it's disheartening that the people of the church, those who identify as Christian, and the church itself, are so willing to allow person's to marry who have committed adultery or fornication, but take pause or deny the right to marry to persons who identify as gay. It's quite a shame.

I'm not gay, and I may not agree with the gay lifestyle based on my own personal beliefs, but a person that is gay has NO bearing or effect on me, my life, and the things I have going on in MY life. That's THEIR life and should be free to live it as they desire to. Creating laws based on biblical principles are causing us as humans to be divided over something that, to me, is so freaking trivial! If that's the case, there are a TON of laws that need to be enacted that are solely based on biblical principles. Homophobia and other hypocritical statements or beliefs long held by the church are what's driving people out of the church.
 

Aety

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I'm catholic and bisexual. I don't see any problem with that. I don't follow the Old Testament and Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. God created us in His image, and in that regard we are perfect just as we are. Gay, straight, bi or whatever. I sometimes struggle with the fact the Roman Church is still so anti-gay, but at least with the current pope we're moving a bit forward!
 
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Brodie888

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'Scuse me? The 3rd century Empire was more intensely anti-Christian than the 1st, 2nd, or 4th...
Oops. Typo. 4th century. Emperor Constantine, First Council of Nicaea, Athanasius of Alexandria establishing the new testament canon etc etc.
 

malakos

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Oops. Typo. 4th century. Emperor Constantine, First Council of Nicaea, Athanasius of Alexandria establishing the new testament canon etc etc.

You understand that the Emperor Constantine was, at best, flirting with Christianity throughout his life, that Christianity was not the state religion throughout the Constantinian era, not until the end of that century, that Constantine really had no hand in the development of the canon (which had started long before his time and was pretty much already agreed upon before "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES"), and that it wasn't a topic that the Council of Nicaea even touched on?
 
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Brodie888

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You understand that the Emperor Constantine was, at best, flirting with Christianity throughout his life, that Christianity was not the state religion throughout the Constantinian era, not until the end of that century, that Constantine really had no hand in the development of the canon (which had started long before his time and was pretty much already agreed upon before "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES"), and that it wasn't a topic that the Council of Nicaea even touched on?

I didn't want to bog the thread with long paragraphs of ancient history text. The point was that men (not God), decided what to teach people and equally important, what not to teach people.

The Nicean Council formed under Constantine I, was a well documented attempt at reaching a consensus (ie editing/interpretation) of what was to be taught. In this case, the relationship between God the father and God the son.

As for the New Testament Canon, people can read up for themselves how the NT became what it is today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
 

malakos

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I didn't want to bog the thread with long paragraphs of ancient history text. The point was that men (not God), decided what to teach people and equally important, what not to teach people.

The Nicean Council formed under Constantine I, was a well documented attempt at reaching a consensus (ie editing/interpretation) of what was to be taught. In this case, the relationship between God the father and God the son.

As for the New Testament Canon, people can read up for themselves how the NT became what it is today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

The emphasis on Constantine is just one of many distortions (even going to the point of making up alternative facts, like the assertion that the Council of Nicaea decided the biblical canon) that has led folks to perceive the legacy of the Church / Christendom / orthodox, catholic Christianity through a much more negative lens than is actually justifiable.
 

Frodo46888

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I know that many Christians will selectively read between the lines in an English-language Bible and conclude that homosexuality is evil, but look at the broader picture. Consider when the writings were made, and how and by whom they were selected to become the Bible, and the fact that they went through two or three or more translations before being presented to us in English. Homosexuality was scarcely addressed and did not seem to be a Big Deal in Biblical times, so the Bible is a poor weapon to use in a campaign against it.
 

BIGBULL29

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It's highly dangerous when we try to use an ancient text to dictate modern-day morality. Hard to believe that this is still going on in 2018.

The New Testament condemns the love of money more than anything else. In fact, the Apostle Paul says that the "love of money is the root of evil." Nothing sexual in nature, as you can see. I often hear from Evangelical Protestants: "you can be super rich and be a good Christian - no problem. Just as long as you put God first." But I always thought that a Christian was supposed to store up "his treasures" in heaven. Furthermore, you cannot serve "two" masters: you either want all god, or you want all money and the world. You cannot have it both ways.

If rich Christians didn't "love their money", they'd be giving it up and living a modest lifestyle. Don't talk like a complete and utter fool. That's abundantly clear from the New Testament.

The Catholic Church condemns money a zillion times more in its official teachings than Evangelicals (Bible fundamentalists, Baptists, Pentecostals,etc.), despite all the millions and millions it has. Hypocritical but still closer to the Gospel ideal.

The "pick-and-choose" mentality in applying the Bible is laughable.

I believe that Evangelical Protestants put way more emphasis on the Old Testament than Catholics and more liberal Protestants. It is supposed to be the other way around. Evangelicals even talk of evil kings from the Old Testament and how they can be raised up by God to do good for the land. Actually, that's their justification for Donald J. Trump. Yeah, it's Roy Moore crazy.

Here's what I tell a gay person who was raised around Bible thumpers: The Old Testament is full of racy stories of sex, concubines and incest; and some of the people doing these things were "men of God." In fact you could be stoned to death for adultery, or perhaps eating the wrong kind of meat. Is that a book you want to put your complete faith in?
 
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BIGBULL29

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I am an atheist who was raised in a very religious household in a context that came close to being a cult. My father was a clergyman. While I disagreed with him in many matters I truly respect his openness to critical thought in some areas. In the last ten years of his long life he came to the conclusion that the church's homophobia drove people away from Christ for no good reason and and became an ardent, and public, supporter of marriage equality. He caught a fair amount of flack for this from his clergy colleagues, including one brother.

Thank you for sharing your story. Very touching.

Yes, religion blinds people so badly; but sometimes, its ludicrousness can wake people up and have them see the forest for the trees. Amen to that.

Fighting over consensual sex, sexual orientation and gender identity. Sounds primitive. I'd compare it to two people not talking to teach other because the one person doesn't like the color of the person's car. God doesn't like people who drive yellow cars. You are going to hell.

*Sex between consenting adults is a most private affair. Stay out of people's bedrooms.

^We still have to say this in 2018.
 
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BoBolt

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After browsing through the site, i noticed there are is an exceptionally large amount of gays living here.

As you know, i am a christian, and my religion states that being gay is wrong.

I do not beleive this at all, its the one part of my beautiful religion that is total bollox. I couldnt give two hoots about it!

Just want to know your views on the way the church views homosexuality?
Gays have pretty much been discriminated against most of the time in most places.
Church's should be a place of safety, succor, unconditional love and fellowship.

Instead many are filled with holier than thou hypocrites and haters.
 
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The New Testament condemns the love of money more than anything else. In fact, the Apostle Paul says that the "love of money is the root of evil."
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
 
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JaimeB

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Don’t read this if you’re not expecting some serious discussion of homoeroticism and the various attitudes toward it of different church bodies. Also, bear in mind that there is no one way that different Christians regard its moral value.

Homosexuality (a better word would really be homoeroticism) has existed since before the biblical record took its present forms.

There are a very few texts in the scriptural record that have been considered to apply to homoerotic activity. These are often taken out of context as blanket condemnations of sex between men, specifically. Unfortunately, in the interpretation of texts, not considering the context is the worst enemy of accurate understanding.

For example, Leviticus, chapter 20, refers to certain sexual acts of men with women. In the Judaic tradition, these texts are called “lying with women” (lying as in bed, not saying untruths). The often-cited verse in this passage refers to men lying with other men “according to lyings with women.” Taken out of context, this is interpreted by many as a condemnation of homoerotic acts between men. Now Jewish tradition regards these “lyings with women” as referring collectively to all the incestuous and other prohibitions between the sexes mentioned there. Taken in context, this would imply that what is objectionable for a man to do with particular women (sisters, aunts, etc.) is also objectionable to do with certain men (brothers, uncles, etc.). Not all sexual acts between men and women are proscribed; therefore, in the specific context, logic would dictate that not all sexual acts are proscribed between men.

Other texts that are taken to refer to homoerotic practices are in fact condemnations of temple prostitution among the neighbors of ancient Israel. Bear in mind that these services were exclusively available to men, and were provided in temples by both males and females. Why single out only the male temple prostitues for condemnation? The contexts clearly include both.

The problem at the root of the misapplication of these texts to all male homoerotic behavior is the failure to read these texts in their context, and failing to exclude “reading in” extraneous opinions not found in the texts themselves. Separating a verse from its context, commonly called “proof-texting,” removes its anchor to the whole scriptural record. As a technique of interpretation, it divorces the verse from evidence needed to understand it. It is not a technique for understanding, but originated in, and persists as a tool for polemic debating.

To understand this issue, look at the entire scriptural record. In the later, specifically Christian testament, the detailed legal requirements of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are seen as no longer binding on non-Jewish Christians. The spirit of the law is now understood as superior to the letter. Jesus rejects both the religious leaders of his day and the conventionally pious, not for their beliefs, but for their blindness and inaction in larger questions of justice for the poor and oppressed. He expresses this solidarity by associating with the marginalized, not to purify their morals, but to show he is on their side, and that they are more loved than the comfortable.

In the Gospels, homoerotic relationships seem not to be addressed at all, unless you see Jesus’ affection for his “beloved disciple” as homoerotic; but Jesus defends his this relationship to the disciples who question him about it. Jesus even compares the sin of Sodom to those towns that rejected his miracles and refused to extend hospitality to his disciples.

There are places in the scriptural record that appear to give comfort to homophobic types, but the overwhelming witness is to inclusion, acceptance of outcasts, judging one’s own life rather than the lives of others.

I have to reject the notion that the scriptures are a weapon to afflict those who have been cast out. “The Church” in many times and places has preferred the old narrow pieties and prejudices to bold acts of love for outcasts. It is a human institution, with human failings too. Yet the origins of its life and history call it to its true goal of love of neighbor, love that witnesses to justice, freedom, and respect for every human being.
 

handcuffsfan4

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As a kid I was raised by mom who was mormon and my dad who was raised Catholic. Well, my dad who was a good man who worked as a mechanic in the navy, died right after my 5th birthday and before my lil sisters 2nd birthday. This left my mom 30 years old with two young kids and both sides of the church telling her that she cant remarry because she is technically still married to my dad. The church, both catholic and mormon, never tried to financially help us, they never did anything like that.
Compare this to their stances on gays or lesbiens raising kids and you can see their indiscrepancies. A kid shouldnt be raised by parents of the same sex, even if they can financially and emotionally be there for you; yet it is ok for a young mom to take care of kids without a dad, without help from the church I may add.
To me it seems as the church cares more about its stances and religious politics than it does about the people.
But I decided early on that there are just to many things wrong about religion to justify having one. As a mathmatician now I see that if a model dosnt fit real life and it is difficult to modify it to fit, then we need to create a new model or at least find one that fits.
I dont believe that religious people are inherently bad for their beliefes, we just simply have different beliefes. Why force something in a box when it wont fit? Just make a new box for it.
Also, who do most religions believe that only they will go to heaven or what not? It seems to just be proof that these institutions are just trying to control the masses into joining.