The cock, gender, and sexual identity

[CuriousFem]

Is the cock the focus of your gender and sexual identity?

I think that for most guys, the answer is Yes. We think of ourselves as male because we have a cock. And we define our sexual identities primarily in terms of (1) whether our partner has a cock or not, and (2) whether our sexual role is focused on our cock or his.

Of course, these are natural continuaa, not black/white states of being. From gay to straight and from top to bottom, each of us falls somewhere in between, and where we find ourselves can change with time and with different partners. Among my favorite threads on LPSG have been ones that discuss these topics.

But what about gender? Having just read the book Gender Outlaw (by Kate Bornstein), I've been thinking a lot about the fact that most of us do not think of gender as anything but a binary system. And for most people, the cock is the defining male trait, despite the fact that there are several other ways to define gender.

Since this forum has the cock as the central theme (and what a glorious theme it is!), I'm interested in what the men on the forum have to say about their own cock being the "center" of their gender and sexual identities. And I explicitly invite women to comment as well. (Please guys, no flames to the women about "you don't have a penis, so you don't know".)

I'll tell you how I see myself in this regard, although I bet I'm going to be quite the exception among the responses. I don't feel particularly male. Sure, I have the appropriate anatomy and chromosomes for a male, and I'm considered masculine by others. But I've never felt a strong identification with the male gender. On the other hand, I've never felt like a woman, either. I do identify considerably with women. (Maybe a lot of gay men do.) But I have no desire to be one anatomically.

However... I am not all that emotionally attached to my cock. It does not have a central role in my sex life, so it's really just a location on my body that responds in a sexual way to physical stimulation... ultimately to orgasm. I feel this way to the point that I don't think I would be unhappy or traumatized in any way if my cock were to be magically replaced one day by some other sex organ that could give me similar pleasure when stimulated.

As a gay man, I have zero erotic feelings about pussies. Yet, I believe that if I were to wake up tomorrow with one, I'd like it just fine because it would be part of me. As a bonus, it would give me another place in which to get fucked.

I suspect that few men feel the same way, and especially here on LPSG. But that's neither here nor there.

I'd like to hear how you feel about the role of your own cock in your identity. Serious and silly replies appreciated. And feel free to turn your response into a pornographic pean to your penis if the mood strikes you. :biggrin1:

HB

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Is the cock the focus of your gender and sexual identity?

Not really no. You're using "gender" in the wrong way btw.

I think that for most guys, the answer is Yes. We think of ourselves as male because we have a cock. And we define our sexual identities primarily in terms of (1) whether our partner has a cock or not, and (2) whether our sexual role is focused on our cock or his.

If by "most guys" you mean there are a lot of stupid men around who cannot think about much other than their penis then you're right. Beyond that there is an ocean of men who think more broadly and who probably define their masculinity in a variety of ways, their penis would probably not come first in their lists of defining male characteristics, beyond the purely physical that is.

BTW your sex life sounds boring.

Of course, these are natural continuaa, not black/white states of being. From gay to straight and from top to bottom, each of us falls somewhere in between, and where we find ourselves can change with time and with different partners. Among my favorite threads on LPSG have been ones that discuss these topics.

What?

But what about gender? Having just read the book Gender Outlaw (by Kate Bornstein), I've been thinking a lot about the fact that most of us do not think of gender as anything but a binary system. And for most people, the cock is the defining male trait, despite the fact that there are several other ways to define gender.

Speak for yourself, I know hordes of people who are intelligent enough not to be fooled by the binary dichotomy you're talking about.

Again, misuse of the term gender.

Since this forum has the cock as the central theme (and what a glorious theme it is!), I'm interested in what the men on the forum have to say about their own cock being the "center" of their gender and sexual identities. And I explicitly invite women to comment as well. (Please guys, no flames to the women about "you don't have a penis, so you don't know".)

Wow penis obssession much? Oh and "gender", you misused it again.

I'll tell you how I see myself in this regard, although I bet I'm going to be quite the exception among the responses. I don't feel particularly male. Sure, I have the appropriate anatomy and chromosomes for a male, and I'm considered masculine by others. But I've never felt a strong identification with the male gender. On the other hand, I've never felt like a woman, either. I do identify considerably with women. (Maybe a lot of gay men do.) But I have no desire to be one anatomically.

"(Maybe a lot of gay men do.)" Really? What makes you presume that? You sure you're not somewhat trapped in this binary sexual dichotomy you were talking about before?

I'd like to hear how you feel about the role of your own cock in your identity. Serious and silly replies appreciated. And feel free to turn your response into a pornographic pean to your penis if the mood strikes you. :biggrin1:

HB

My cock is great, I think it's brilliant, I love it, it does not define my masculinity, in fact it does not define me in anyway. I am defined by who I am as a person, my masculinity and maleness are a combination of how I behave and how I think, and in no way tied to my physical appearance.

 

[CuriousFem]

Not really no. You're using "gender" in the wrong way btw.

I think it's reasonable to ask someone what they think of when they think of their gender identity. Some people will think in terms of masculine and feminine behavior, and some will think in terms of anatomy.

You've complained several times about my use of "gender" without offering an alternate definition of gender identity.

BTW your sex life sounds boring.

In this thread I have not written about my sex life. And, clearly, you don't know anything about it, making your comment uninformed as well as irrelevant to the topic.

You sure you're not somewhat trapped in this binary sexual dichotomy you were talking about before?

Finally you say something related to the topic. We're all trapped in this binary gender dichotomy to some degree because we live in a society that reinforces it. And anyone who studies gender identity can talk ad nauseum about patterns of behavior and thought that are associated with masculinity and others with femininity.

But that's not what I asked. I asked how guys feel about their cocks in relation to their male identity (such as it is) and to their gay/straight/whatever sexual identity.

HB

PS -- You can't tell from my presence on this site whether or not I obsess much about cocks, or much else about my life generally So quit trying.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

In this thread I have not written about my sex life. And, clearly, you don't know anything about it, making your comment uninformed as well as irrelevant to the topic.

I was not making a comment about your actual RL sex-life, I was making a sarcastic remark about your summation of human sexuality a la this-

we define our sexual identities primarily in terms of (1) whether our partner has a cock or not, and (2) whether our sexual role is focused on our cock or his.

I know nothing about your actual sex life and have no opinion on it.

But that's not what I asked. I asked how guys feel about their cocks in relation to their male identity (such as it is) and to their gay/straight/whatever sexual identity.

Indeed that is what you asked, and I went to the trouble of indicating what a dull and prolix question it was, one laced with all sorts of silly and fatuous presumptions about the concepts of gender identity and human sexuality, which would be offensive if they weren't so commonly held that they're boring.

Your dismissal of behavioural, and psychological understandings of sex identity and sexual identity is telling in that it suggests you have no real thirst for intelligent discussion of the very subject you have brought up and are instead looking for some kind of pseudo-intellectual wankfodder, descriptions of how central the penis is to a man's gender role and sexual identity. A kind of phalocentric Androautoerotomania focused on a psychologically unhealthy degree of investment of identity in the penis is what you have asked male members to describe to you.

That you in the process make some remarkably odd comments about how you presume gay men are be able to identify with women as per -

I do identify considerably with women. (Maybe a lot of gay men do.)

- is only to be expected I suppose, considering you clearly don't understand the topic you've raised and aren't actually looking to discuss it intelligently.

PS reread what I replied to you originally, I did in fact deal with more of your points than you seem to think, and nor was I as certain of your lack of perspicacity as I am now. I challenged your ideas, and confronted your presumptions where I disagreed with them, and asked you questions when I could not quite make sense of your assertions. I also engaged constructively in the discussion you started.

That I did not do so in the manner of a kindly primary school teacher is hardly to my discredit, you are a grown man no? Or were you looking purely for responses which confirmed your ideas and did not challenge your presumptions in any way?

 

[Drifterwood]

Interesting thread.

I probably should go away and think about it, but in the spirit of the question, I'll shoot from the hip.

On one level, I see my gender and sexual identity in terms of other people. Women tend to see me as very male, as do men. In the jigsaw of such things, this is where I am put and don't unhappily sit.

Internally, I don't quite see it like this. Regarding who I am, I consider my sexuality and gender less important than my mental, emotional and spiritual faculties. To what extent my gender etc affects/effects the first two, I am not always sure.

My testosterone plays a greater role in these things than my cock. My bits are just one of the tools that physically expresses my sexuality and gender.

Now, I'll go away and think about it.

 

[CuriousFem]

On one level, I see my gender and sexual identity in terms of other people. Women tend to see me as very male, as do men. In the jigsaw of such things, this is where I am put and don't unhappily sit.

This is exactly the sort of thing I was getting at -- we are put into one of (usually) two categories, male or female. How we feel about it can be a different story.

Thanks for replying with your own experience/insight.

Internally, I don't quite see it like this. Regarding who I am, I consider my sexuality and gender less important than my mental, emotional and spiritual faculties. To what extent my gender etc affects/effects the first two, I am not always sure.

I would say the same about myself. I wonder how common this is, though? If your body magically changed overnight, how radically would it affect your own sense of identity? Or, if your sexual orientation flopped to the other end of the Kinsey scale suddenly, how much would everything else change?

My testosterone plays a greater role in these things than my cock. My bits are just one of the tools that physically expresses my sexuality and gender.

That's interesting. Because of the cock-focus of lpsg, I was/am expecting a lot of the opposite sentiment, i.e. that the cock is so central that without it, much of person's gender identity and sexual identity would come into question and would likely change.

I don't view that kind of response as shallow or unevolved or primitive, as some might. Everyone's wired differently. E.g. the "100% top" guys that I know have defined themselves in a way where their cock is central to their masculine identity. And I know one TS where the same is true -- her cock is so central to the masculine identity that she wants to shed that she's been saving for years for surgery. (Another TS I know does not feel this way at all.)

HB

 

[CuriousFem]

Your dismissal of behavioural, and psychological understandings of sex identity and sexual identity

I did not mean to dismiss these at all, so perhaps I should have been more careful in my wording. I only wanted to emphasize that I was not asking specifically about them. While behavior and psychology are entirely relevant, I asked how people feel about their own cock in relation to their sexual and gender identity.

That you in the process make some remarkably odd comments about how you presume gay men are be able to identify with women

I made no such presumption. I wrote, parenthetically, "Maybe many gay men do?" I phrased it as a question, and used a qualifier, to make it plain that I am not sure to what degree this is true.

However, there is ample cultural evidence that gay men have some sort of identification with (straight) women. From drag to torch songs to the iconic "fag hag" relationship, gay men have long expressed this.

you clearly don't understand the topic you've raised and aren't actually looking to discuss it intelligently.

Is either a pre-requisite for starting a thread? The construction of identity is not my area of expertise, for sure. I'm learning a lot from reading about it (in books and papers, not on websites devoted to other topics). But I did explicitly state that silly replies are welcome, so this did not have to be only a serious discussion.

Btw, when I wrote "we define..." in my original post, I meant "our culture defines...", or more precisely, "the dominant culture in much of the world defines" gender as binary and defined by the presence/absence of the penis, and sexuality as gay/straight/etc by the gender of the sex partner.

From what I have read, this is well-supported. Because I was not clear, I understand how you could misattribute these beliefs as mine.

I challenged your ideas, and confronted your presumptions
[...]
That I did not do so in the manner of a kindly primary school teacher is hardly to my discredit

I appreciate challenges to my ideas and presumptions when they are constructive to the discussion, and yours were not. You were simply being childish and rude when you replied to my post.

HB

 

[Drifterwood]

I would say the same about myself. I wonder how common this is, though? If your body magically changed overnight, how radically would it affect your own sense of identity? Or, if your sexual orientation flopped to the other end of the Kinsey scale suddenly, how much would everything else change?

I think that if my gender or orientation flipped overnight, I would find it very difficult. For whilst they are not solely defining they are still a major part of who I am and to an extent, the role I get.

Certainly with regard to gender, the hormonal differences would make a massive difference. I have no real concept of wanting to be a mother for example, and if that was part and parcel of the nature and nurture change, it would be a very big change to deal with.

I think the expression of a different sexual orientation would be easier, but as a Str8 guy, I would be perhaps out of an easier societal comfort zone.

 

[Bbucko]

There are many things that make one a male, as both Hilly and DW have pointed out. Penises are just a part of it, and are technically secondary to the testes.

I see no correlation between sexual orientation and my own gender, except in as much as I'm more attracted sexually to those who share it, and even that is not necessarily a base-line requirement, as I have a whole series of criteria, preferences and limits. Gender actually rates somewhere in the middle, and I'm essentially gay.

I have never experienced gender confusion, nor have I ever felt that gender should be assigned to inanimate objects like color or fabric; in fact I find such distinctions the repellent product of a small and incurious mind. This is not to slight nor denigrate the trans-sex community, but we're not discussing them (at least I don't think so).

I have met many men, as "masculine" as you could want, who see their penis and their sexual gratification as two separate things: we call them bottoms where I'm from. In discussing my own sexuality, though I'm a non-versatile top (no anal penetration for me). I see my anatomy as part of a kind of "kit" which includes my penis, nipples, mouth, hands/fingers and my sensory organs (eyes, ears and nose, skin); I've met plenty of guys who had as much if not greater interest in my feet than anything else

 

[CuriousFem]

nor have I ever felt that gender should be assigned to inanimate objects like color or fabric

This bothers me as well. A few years ago, a 3 year old child asked me why my phone (cover) was pink, since pink is for girls. These ridiculous messages are pervasive and obviously they stick.

I have met many men, as "masculine" as you could want, who see their penis and their sexual gratification as two separate things: we call them bottoms where I'm from.

Yeah, that's me as well. :biggrin1:

I come across as masculine and have also been accused of jamming people's gaydar. In the last few years I have been playing a bit with the gender and sexuality stereotypes by purposefully doing/wearing/carrying things that defy the predictable expectations. In the process, I'm learning things about what I really like and do not like from all these things that I had not tried.

For example, I now know from experience that it takes some balls for a guy to wear a skirt in public! While I always respected those who dressed the way they wanted and the world be damned, I now understand better what it took for them to do this.

I'm aware that others do this all the time and have been doing it for years... Just saying that I had no great interest in it personally until relatively recently.

HB