The Complexities of Love

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by D_Martin van Burden, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    I was chatting on the Internet yesterday with a 22-year-old grad student who tried to explain what he meant when he said that he's bi. I kinda pressed him further, I admit.

    Anyway, he talked a little bit about what he likes about women and what he likes about men. At first, he said that he was more partial to men physically. He likes male body contact. He likes mutual masturbation and giving oral sex, but he's not into more "intimate" behaviors like kissing or anal sex. (I don't blame him about the latter, though. I've never been comfortable with that either, even with a consenting woman.) He likes cuddling, though, with both genders. I asked him what he liked with women, and he said that he liked cuddling, of course, and vaginal sex. Kissing? Yeah, he'll kiss women.

    Okay, so I think I got his tastes figured out a bit, and then he explains: "I like guys a lot. I don't know if I could ever be with a woman without having a guy on the side."

    Of course, I don't think this attitude is fully representative of the bisexuality thing. Commitment is an emotional beast totally separate from what you fuck. Hell, heterosexuals and homosexuals still have problems keeping it in their pants.

    What kept me interested though was that he pretty much shot down for himself any hope of finding a partner that he can fully invest himself into because his sexual needs were so much more powerful? That thinking might just reflect his age. You don't get the deep emotional drives psychologically for another few years, anyway; he's barely out of his manwhore period, ha ha. Marriage is a distinct stage in the life cycle. He's waist deep in graduate school, and that really does suck up and consume your life. You barely have time for anything, let alone a fling.

    That comment still sticks with me, though.

    Perhaps this is naive -- I'm gonna claim that now -- but I figure that if you really meet someone that you're compatible with, whatever gender that person may be, that that compatibility is strong enough to manage alternative sexual interests. That happens enough in regular relationships. If you're in a relationship, you tend not to be looking for other mates, even if they might be a little more physically attractive than your mate.

    But the guy shot himself down, basically. Said that he'll probably never find that level of satisfaction in a mate.

    What do you guys think?

    I guess this is more directed toward those with bisexual persuasions, but I'm fielding comments from anybody at this point...
     
  2. DC_DEEP

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    Some people, even when trying to be open-minded, place (sometimes very strict) limits upon themselves and upon those they view as potential mates. To make something like you describe actually work, you have to relax a lot, and sometimes look outside what you think are your normal boundaries. There was a time in my life when I had no interest in "bears" or "leathermen." But once I met a few from each of those catagories, I started realizing that I had been looking for the wrong things in the wrong places to find someone compatible. If you tend to be a jealous type of person, monogamy won't work and an open relationship won't work. Love and trust and honesty make a foundation upon which you can build whatever kind of relationship will be fulfilling for you.
     
  3. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Dee, he seems more gay with some straight tendencies than purely bisexual.
     
  4. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    well, that was a scary thing to read

    that's really not at all uncommon. I came to terms with that fact years ago; life is about learning to deal with the fact that you can't have everything (or in many cases anything) you want anyways, and i really think the whole sexuality vs emotion thing is just another facet of that.

    I think it's up to the guy himself to decide what labels he wants to stick on himself, if any.
     
  5. KinkGuy

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    There are a few true bisexuals. I have a very close male friend of many years, who makes it work. He is a sexual stud with his wife and keeps her very happy (which she has stated). They are a great couple, with children and she understands his overwhelming need to go "play with the boys" once in a while. She is very secure and knew he had explored gay relationships and sex when they married. He plays safe and is open, honest and hides nothing from her. He saw one of his buddies for sex and male companionship and M2M emotional love for years. She had even met him a time or two. Seems to work for them and have been married for almost 20 years. Maybe it doesn't hurt that he's one hot stud?
     
  6. GoneA

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    alas dee, i am inclined to say this is "naive" thinking. compatibility does not always (yes, yes i know you know this already) foster commitment. you said it yourself, he [the guy you spoke to online] is in a, excuse the term, "manwhore" stage. to try for a more sophisticated approach (although i personally like your use of the word "manwhore"), i'm convinced you mean he is still exploring - and naturally so. you also made the fundamental point that both homosexual and heterosexual men/women have commitment issues in general (to save myself from a sweeping generalization, i'm going to say this is obviously not true to everyone). unfortunately (although sometimes not always so), people in relationships do tend to look for other mates.

    i remember a while ago reading where a statistics was done that said: a great deal - some percentage number was given - of people who subscribe to online dating ads are actually married - men. i really didn't know what to make of that except that i'm inclined to believe it. the reason is because i know seven (7) married couples (barring my parents), two of which ACTUALLY ARE subscribed to dating ads (online, nonetheless) and one man is having an affair. an outsider looking in would think these couples are happily married - as far as compatibility goes; however, the opposite is true. again, the reason why i mention this is to further buttress to argument that compatibility does not foster commitment (clearly, the reverse of this is true, as well). furthermore, i think that is one of the greatest reasons why, a lot of the time, when relationships do go wrong, itÂ’s so very overwhelming and feeling of dejections and worthlessness are manifested. i guess in a perfect world your statement would be true, but on earth, this is hardly the case.


     
  7. serdoyl

    serdoyl New Member

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    What the hell does "purely" bisexual mean anyway? That's an oxymoron if I ever saw one. Its like asking for a mixed drink "straight up"!. Sorry pecker, but your thoughts don't add up for me.:(
     
  8. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Purely (or, if you will, completely) bisexual, i.e. 50% gay, 50% straight.
     
  9. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Sorry about my use of the word "compatibility." Compatibility is more of an initial entry way into a relationship in the first place; it's what determines the level of relationship you have with someone, preferably a higher match regarding the selection of the fate.

    What I meant to say was, that if two people really care about each other and like each other and are equally invested in the relationship -- that's it -- that they can suppress other impulses to seek new mates.

    What is it inherent in a relationship that keeps both partners mutually satisfied?

    I'm impressed with Kink's anecdotal reference, probably because I couldn't imagine what kind of fortitude it would take for that woman to accept all the facets of her mate's state of being -- past and present. Or, how she can maintain security knowing that she possibly can't fulfill his needs. Or, how his behavior meshes with the existing rules of the relationship. Again, great and highly complicated stuff to think about and settle when things get serious...

    I remember speaking with a classmate a few years ago about how she couldn't possibly date a bisexual man because it's that very insecurity -- knowing that she can't meet all of his needs -- that would make it too painful for her to even try it. Of course, she just snorted that reading off and said that she wasn't in the mood to share, as if all bisexuals are getting into threesomes, foursomes, what have you when getting into a serious relationship...

    I also read one sociological theory that kinda shoots love in the ass -- that, really, we're just in the relationships we're in out of needs fulfillment, and that if we can get our needs better met from other people, we'll flock to them with little consequence.

    Heh, maybe I need to meet such a "true bisexual" character. Some parts of me feel that way in theory -- that I probably wouldn't turn down companionship from anyone if I felt it was really genuine and thorough and thoughtful and what have you. Then again, greedy ass me probably wouldn't turn down a blowjob either.

    Man, sometimes I wish I were more emotionally mature to get the nuances of this love stuff. I'm still in a self-driven mode. Good reason -- I mean, I need to find a job and get my career started. And marriages don't work too well in my family either, so I hope I don't become jaded before my time.
     
  10. Lex

    Lex
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    In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
    Dee--my Wife and I are in a Mixed Orientation Marriage (there are tons of support groups online for this) and I am open to her about all things male inmy life. I have a BF whom I love very much. She has said to me that I am a better husband now for being able to face and accept my attraction for men. I think that it can work. It is working for us.

    I have posted about my struggles with bisexulaity here. I would never claim to havbe all the answers of the defintive perspective. Just MY perspective, y'know?
     
  11. D_Elijah_MorganWood

    D_Elijah_MorganWood New Member

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    ****see next post****
     
  12. D_Elijah_MorganWood

    D_Elijah_MorganWood New Member

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    Dee, you said a cotton pickin' mouthfull. I'll have to once again defer to the Kinsey scale. I agree with him wholeheartedly that sexuality isn't such a black and white thing. I have never met someone who was a true Kinsey 1 or 6, or a 3 for that matter. You cover a lot of ground here, from monogamy to belief systems to relationships and marriage. The closest I've met to a "true bisexual" character is the son of a longtime friend of the family. Even so, it seems he uses men for purely sexual release and women for relationships.

    My last relationship with a woman ended because she treated me badly, not because I wanted cock. I must confess this did facilitate my headlong plunge into same-sex adventures. In my experience, men are far more tolerant of being with a bisexual man than women are. I told my ex about myself after we split and she literally tried to kill me. She kept asking me why I never told her and it was because I genuinely didn't know. I've spoken to many guys who have experienced the same. I think we face a myth perpetuated by heterosexuals as well as homosexuals: "gays are gays, straights are straights and bi's are sluts" as if all bisexuals gratify their sexual urges by fucking men and women on a regular basis and heck, why not an orgy or two? I'm a little older than you and the people I've known run the gamut when it comes to sexuality.

    Remember we have more at work here than our sexual urges. We have "mother-father-church-school-society", our internal dogma. This affects everything and I mean EVERYTHING. People sometimes don't allow themselves a same-sex outlet because of the resulting cognitive disonance.

    The older I got, the less concerned I became with attaching labels to myself. Others have been quick to do that. I'm still attracted to women. I've been in a relationship with a wonderful man for 5 years. Do I still have fantasies? Hell yeah! Will I do anything about them? One day at a time, I'm faithful. Should I find myself single again will I have sex with a woman? If the opportunity presents itself and the chemistry is right, I probably will. Am I a "true bisexual?" 'Fraid not. That would be Kinsey 3 and I've never met one. I have, however, met many people (including my sister) who seem to jump back and forth across the sexual fence on a regular basis. I have another friend who was in a lesbian relationship for 4 years and is not married to a man for the same duration.

    The most powerful sex organ is the brain. I like women who are genuinely wild and dress like whores. I like men clean cut, kinda shy and a little nerdy. Go figure.
     
  13. FrankPipeliner

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    hi all, very considerate thread. some of you have gone into great detail but i'll attempt to be brief.

    There are those, like me, who ask (in the immortal words of tina turner) "what's love got to do with it?" When i was in my 20's sex had little to do with love, compatibility or even attraction. it was mostly about availability and willingness. i started with girls and moved to couples and men in rather short order. at no time has there been a sense of commitment, remorse, concern. there were no relationships although there were regular fuck pals and the group was dynamic, people leaving people entering. i can't even count the number of one nighters (8 minute dating is spectacular).

    anyway, its only recently (i'll be 36 soon) and to my surprise that i've laid down emotional ties with an individual who happens to be a woman. she might be my soulmate. i gave her lots of carrots for christmas. she knows of my past and perhaps more of my reputation. there remain questions as to fidelity and the nature of extracurricular sexual activities complicated by the fact that her ex left her for a newer model.

    i'm not sure how or if this fits into the current thread but while i'm pondering the future on this new year's eve i felt moved to tell you about it.
    happy new year to you all,
    frank
     
  14. KinkGuy

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    Frank,
    IMHO, you are already on the "right track" with this woman. If she is indeed your soul mate, continuing your open, honest and forthright communication can make it work on what ever level you are both comfortable and secure with. It may involve your dalliances with other men, it may not. Just do not lie to each other or make promises you can't keep.
     
  15. B_HungSpermBoy

    B_HungSpermBoy New Member

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    I think that we have certain intimate connections with a limited number of people in our life-times, that we can actually call "love". I think the rest are experimenting or figuring out who we're attracted to. I don't think this is just about physical attraction. I think that our deepest connections have other issues associated with them. I think that we either really "click" with another person, woman or man, or we don't. I don't think it's just about desire. I like this phrase: "Love is a force of nature". That explains it pretty well for me.



     
  16. SATNITEFEEVR

    SATNITEFEEVR New Member

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    Labels with stigma's scare people. Try not to insist on defining people who are resistant to it, and or unsure of a labels meaning. When they figure out what they are, they'll tell you.
     
  17. headbang8

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    Dee,

    Fascinating and difficult subjects you raise.

    Imagine, if you will, that you’re a straight man. Blondes are your type, but you also have a thing for redheads. Should your blonde wife understand the need for a redhead on the side?

    Unless you’re in a terribly open relationship, most wives probably wouldn’t. Sexual release is a deep-seated human need, sexual variety is something you add as bonus.

    But such an attitude would trivialise those who find satisfaction in mixed orientation relationships. I suspect these are more about satisfying the need different kinds of intimacy in different ways. Kink Guy said that his mixed orientation buddy got "M2M emotional support" from his boyfriend, and Lex has mentioned that the intimacy he shares with his male partner is different from that with his wife. These kind of emotional bonds are noble, and to be respected. I believe that it takles a big heart, generous spirit, and huge zest for life to mainain a mixed orientation relationship. I wish I had half the zest for life that Lex shows!

    That said, bisexual or monosexual, if you've made the commitment to be faithful for whatever reason, then your fidelity needs conscious maintenance. As Sorcerer said, one day at a time. JUST SAY NO to the casual blowjob! (Well, maybe a small blowjob wouldn't hurt...)

    Dee, it sounds like your grad-student pal has a different issue, though. Pecker alluded to it. He's not a bisexual struggling with fidelity; he's a gay man struggling with intimacy. He'll have sex with a man but not kiss? Uh-huh. Drowning in that river in Egypt, IMHO.
     
  18. Lex

    Lex
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    To be clear, my M.O.M. is exhausting work. Utterly Exhausting. I have days when I wish I DID have a strong preference one way or the other for it would certainly make some of this path I travel a tad easier.

    As for me, I don't know if it is as much zest as it is an looming fear of failure which is unacceptable (to me) in any form, even though I fail all the time. It's all rather complicated--to be a perfectionsit, anxious, control freak who finds himself in a huge life situation over which he has very little control. But, I digress...

    Let me clarify the "differences" in intimacy that you noted. It is not that I feel either closer to my wife of BF. It feel extremely close to both of them, given that I have known my wife for the better part of 15 years, our closeness is deeper.

    What IS different it the role *I* get to take with either of them. With my wife, I am the 'care taker/rock/shoulder/holder" 90% of the time. I provide her with the comfort and safety of strong arms, a warm chest and a tight hug. With my BF, I get to take my wife's role and be held close in arms bigger and stronger than mine, taken care of, made to feel secure, etc.

    It is not that my wife can't give me what he can or vice versa. I take both roles with both from time to time albeit disproportiinately. The physical aspects--kissing, etc,. are the same--it's more the psychological comforts that come from the different roles assumed that make them "different." I hope this adds some claification...
     
  19. b1988

    b1988 New Member

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    Dee,
    This issue...one's psychsocial and psychosexual evolution is difficult to discuss; especially with anyone in some sort of existential crisis.
    When I was in my late 20's I sought counseling during a difficult time in my marriage. I was lucky because I was in medical school and help was readily available. The hurdle that I had to clear was my discomfort seeking help.
    Anyway, in the midst of sorting out my marital issues I eventually discovered that my sexuality was much less sorted out than I realized. I also realized that my marriage was the wrong place for both of us to be. This were very troubling (dramatic understatement) realizations. Naturally if they hadn't been troubling I wouldn't have supressed them.
    I think that this is a very common problem in the late teens to early 30's. The rate at which awareness evolves varies greatly from person to person. Some folks never get over their hurdles and in my view there is a great price paid for this.
    That was the preamble to this: it is impossible to get someone to ""see" something until they are ready. Denial exists for a reason. Often it is important to be patient. Slapping someone in the face with insight may work for some, but it will drive others away into deeper denial.
    Believe me, I have made that mistake.
    Something you said about finding love resonated with me immediately. I think that this quest, the quest for love and intimacy, drives us throughout life. My therapist, who happened to be trained as an adolescent psychiatrist, had something simple and profound to say about this that I think is worth repeating. "When self-actualization occurs you will have the insight to recognize love when you encounter it and the wisdom to accept love where you find it."
    Now that is some heavy shit dude..........
     
  20. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Heh. I guess your therapist is fond of the Serenity Prayer, but still, it's a damn good way of describing it. To some developmentalists, that's clearly the goal -- to be able to just take and accept love wherever it comes without overanalyzing it. That implies the courage and the conviction necessary to say "fuck it" to some of the more down-dragging society labels and to just accept how you feel as being something worthwhile in and of itself. The Serenity Prayer, after all, is more geared to the individual's relationship with God, not what other people approve of or believe in.
     
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