The Conservative Case For Gay Marriage

[B_Nick4444]

And Nick with the Stonewall comments, too. Seriously. How to you expect people to act when they are a minority subjected violent repression? They act out. They get confrontational.

Using gay porn to define a minority is a nice touch. Would you do the same for African Americans? It plays into all the same stereotypes that imply gays are perverts, or deviant or dirty or whatever. Anyone who knows enough gay people knows that is complete bs.

As gays become more accepted, they want the things that were totally unattainable to them before like marriage and family. It's not rocket science.

oh dear! where to start on this one?

pray tell, what do you mean by "minority"? a minority of one? do you mean I am a "member" of a "minority group"?

the reified category (one of so many employed by the lib tard nation) to justify federal intervention and circumscription of free thought, speech, and action?

let us assume, arguendo, that you mean the sociological concept (a concept with some soundness, far more, at any rate, than the bumper sticker sloganeering that comprises lib discourse)

which citation? to make things easy, let us use the pinnacle of LPSG posting, wikpedia:

A minority is a sociological group that does not constitute a politically dominant voting majority of the total population of a given society.

The term "minority group" often occurs alongside a discourse of civil rights and collective rights which gained prominence in the 20th century. Members of minority groups are prone to different treatment in the countries and societies in which they live. This discrimination may be directly based on an individual's perceived membership of a minority group, without consideration of that individual's personal achievement.

Feagin (1984) [4] states that a minority group has five characteristics: (1) suffering discrimination and subordination, (2) physical and/or cultural traits that set them apart, and which are disapproved by the dominant group, (3) a shared sense of collective identity and common burdens, (4) socially shared rules about who belongs and who does not determine minority status, and (5) tendency to marry within the group. In South Africa under apartheid, white South Africans were a majority even though there were many more black South Africans.
Minority group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what discrimination or subordination have I been subjected to? (do you know something I don't?)

what physical or cultural traits might I share? my height? color of hair/eyes? my muscular build? my good looks? what physical traits are "gay"? as to cultural traits -- which ones? English as primary language? my grasp of mathematics? philosophy? religion? the fact I play and watch rugby? the fact I eat with fork, knife, and spoon? what I eat? what I choose not to eat?

what shared identity? Texan? American? Christian? Fencer? Rugger? Chess player? alumnus of a particular school?

what socially shared rules of who belongs? I thought sexual orientation was biologically determined?

tendency to marry within the group? say, huh?

again, I have no idea what you mean -- nothing you have said has any correspondence to my real world

less so as a group -- if gays are in fact under some sort of oppression, how is it that they have throughout history been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization?

 

[ericbythebay]

oh dear! where to start on this one?

pray tell, what do you mean by "minority"? a minority of one? do you mean I am a "member" of a "minority group"?

the reified category (one of so many employed by the lib tard nation) to justify federal intervention and circumscription of free thought, speech, and action?

let us assume, arguendo, that you mean the sociological concept (a concept with some soundness, far more, at any rate, than the bumper sticker sloganeering that comprises lib discourse)

which citation? to make things easy, let us use the pinnacle of LPSG posting, wikpedia:

A minority is a sociological group that does not constitute a politically dominant voting majority of the total population of a given society.

The term "minority group" often occurs alongside a discourse of civil rights and collective rights which gained prominence in the 20th century. Members of minority groups are prone to different treatment in the countries and societies in which they live. This discrimination may be directly based on an individual's perceived membership of a minority group, without consideration of that individual's personal achievement.

Feagin (1984) [4] states that a minority group has five characteristics: (1) suffering discrimination and subordination, (2) physical and/or cultural traits that set them apart, and which are disapproved by the dominant group, (3) a shared sense of collective identity and common burdens, (4) socially shared rules about who belongs and who does not determine minority status, and (5) tendency to marry within the group. In South Africa under apartheid, white South Africans were a majority even though there were many more black South Africans.
Minority group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what discrimination or subordination have I been subjected to? (do you know something I don't?)

what physical or cultural traits might I share? my height? color of hair/eyes? my muscular build? my good looks? what physical traits are "gay"? as to cultural traits -- which ones? English as primary language? my grasp of mathematics? philosophy? religion? the fact I play and watch rugby? the fact I eat with fork, knife, and spoon? what I eat? what I choose not to eat?

what shared identity? Texan? American? Christian? Fencer? Rugger? Chess player? alumnus of a particular school?

what socially shared rules of who belongs? I thought sexual orientation was biologically determined?

tendency to marry within the group? say, huh?

again, I have no idea what you mean -- nothing you have said has any correspondence to my real world

less so as a group -- if gays are in fact under some sort of oppression, how is it that they have throughout history been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization?

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[vince]

Well, at least now we know how to piss off Nick. You're in a minority group Nicky!

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

Marbury v. Madison. 1803. This shit ain't new.

 

[joyboytoy79]

oh dear! where to start on this one?

pray tell, what do you mean by "minority"? a minority of one? do you mean I am a "member" of a "minority group"?

the reified category (one of so many employed by the lib tard nation) to justify federal intervention and circumscription of free thought, speech, and action?

let us assume, arguendo, that you mean the sociological concept (a concept with some soundness, far more, at any rate, than the bumper sticker sloganeering that comprises lib discourse)

which citation? to make things easy, let us use the pinnacle of LPSG posting, wikpedia:

A minority is a sociological group that does not constitute a politically dominant voting majority of the total population of a given society.

The term "minority group" often occurs alongside a discourse of civil rights and collective rights which gained prominence in the 20th century. Members of minority groups are prone to different treatment in the countries and societies in which they live. This discrimination may be directly based on an individual's perceived membership of a minority group, without consideration of that individual's personal achievement.

Feagin (1984) [4] states that a minority group has five characteristics: (1) suffering discrimination and subordination, (2) physical and/or cultural traits that set them apart, and which are disapproved by the dominant group, (3) a shared sense of collective identity and common burdens, (4) socially shared rules about who belongs and who does not determine minority status, and (5) tendency to marry within the group. In South Africa under apartheid, white South Africans were a majority even though there were many more black South Africans.
Minority group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what discrimination or subordination have I been subjected to? (do you know something I don't?)

what physical or cultural traits might I share? my height? color of hair/eyes? my muscular build? my good looks? what physical traits are "gay"? as to cultural traits -- which ones? English as primary language? my grasp of mathematics? philosophy? religion? the fact I play and watch rugby? the fact I eat with fork, knife, and spoon? what I eat? what I choose not to eat?

what shared identity? Texan? American? Christian? Fencer? Rugger? Chess player? alumnus of a particular school?

what socially shared rules of who belongs? I thought sexual orientation was biologically determined?

tendency to marry within the group? say, huh?

again, I have no idea what you mean -- nothing you have said has any correspondence to my real world

less so as a group -- if gays are in fact under some sort of oppression, how is it that they have throughout history been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization?

Nick,

1)You DO identify as Gay, right? And you live in Texas? I ask, because, until rather recently Gay men (in particular) were not legally allowed to engage in sexual activity with each other in your home state. Straight men have always been legally allowed to engage in sexual activity with straight women, even outside of the constraints of marriage. This selective application of morality within a legal construct is what many people with brains would consider oppression. So, check box one, from your list.

2)The very article you quote lists Gays as a minority group, but the explanation is a bit lax. That might be because Feagan's litmus test for minorities is missing 3 very important words: "real or perceived." It should be stated thus: real or perceived physical and/or cultural traits that set them apart, and which are disapproved by the dominant group. There is historical precedence for the "real or perceived" clause. Think of the Irish coming to the US as a result of the potato famine. The were white Christians who spoke English. Many even converted to protestant faiths. Yet, they were perceived by the dominant culture of the time (which was also white Christians who spoke English) as being lazy, stupid, and rowdy. Laziness, stupidity, and rowdiness, in this context, are perceived cultural traits, hence, the Irish were a minority.

Gay men are attributed a certain set of stereotypes, these are perceived cultural traits. Those stereotypes include, but are not limited to: effeminate, limp-wristed, lispy, fashion obsessed, highly educated, and sexually promiscuous. While some or all of these attributes may be found in some gay men, they are generally applied to all gay men as a common culture. Check box 2.

3)Gay men identify as being gay. If they don't, then they are simply MSM (Men who have Sex with Men). The difference is that Gay men identify with the struggles of growing up gay, of being perceived as different. They share a collective burden. MSM, on the other hand, do not identify as being different at all. They simply enjoy sex with men. There is a distinction here, and it's not hard to grasp. Check box 3.

4)See number 3. Check box 4.

5)Well, in places where our marriages are not suppressed, yes, we marry within our group. That SHOULD be a no-brainer, shouldn't it? Check box 5.

Oh, hey! All 5 conditions are met! Would you look at that!

So, you see Nick, how it isn't just libtard stupidity that recognizes how Gays (and Lesbians too, cuz they get ignored too much) are considered minorities. The mere fact that you, personally, do not display all of the traits assumed to be gay does not mean you are any less oppressed than any other gay man. I know you're opposed to the idea of marriage, but should you change your mind, would you be allowed to get married? No. You're not afforded that choice. Isn't that... the definition of "oppression"?

 

[Industrialsize]

less so as a group -- if gays are in fact under some sort of oppression, how is it that they have throughout history been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization?

There is no IF. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. As you say, Gays "been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization"

Have you ever heard of being in the closet?

 

[joyboytoy79]

There is no IF. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. As you say, Gays "been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization"

Have you ever heard of being in the closet?

He also fails to realize that Jews have been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization, too. They've also been oppressed throughout history... many times simply for advancing society.

 

[B_Nick8]

God, that one's an idiot. I'm this close to putting him on ignore, if only because it's come to the point that his posts make my hair hurt. And this time, I haven't even read it; I've only read your responses.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

There is no IF. The 2 are not mutually exclusive. As you say, Gays "been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization"

Have you ever heard of being in the closet?

I'm sure his is fully furnished, complete with moonshine bar and confederate flag wallpaper.

 

[justasimpleguy]

I'd like to take credit for making Nick post possibly the stupidest thing we've ever seen. Kudos to me.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

I'd like to take credit for making Nick post possibly the stupidest thing we've ever seen. Kudos to me.

If we could arrange a gang of ladies from Victoria Secret and Hooters for you we would. :wink:

 

[B_Nick4444]

oh my, one does tend to spin one's wheels here

so, as we anticipated, the basis for "minority" designation is the repression of the indulgence of urges and feeling?

is that not a universal of human existence?

one does not have to review much of world literature, history texts, sociological, studies, etc., to find that across time and space such denials are in fact universal ... "straight" men have to suppress a wide range of feelings and urges throughout their daily lives, across the vast range of feelings and urges, else face the censure of society as well.

what is the distinction?

 

[123scotty]

He also fails to realize that Jews have been the agents of the greatest advances in all areas of human endeavor and civilization, too. They've also been oppressed throughout history... many times simply for advancing society.

the jews have what?
oppressed dont think the palistinians would agree.

 

[Industrialsize]

oh my, one does tend to spin one's wheels here

so, as we anticipated, the basis for "minority" designation is the repression of the indulgence of urges and feeling?

is that not a universal of human existence?

one does not have to review much of world literature, history texts, sociological, studies, etc., to find that across time and space such denials are in fact universal ... "straight" men have to suppress a wide range of feelings and urges throughout their daily lives, across the vast range of feelings and urges, else face the censure of society as well.

what is the distinction?

you really kill me........that you can sit there and type with a straight face that gay People have NOT been a historically oppressed minority group boggles the mind and all logic.I'm embarrassed for you........Where do you think the pink triangle came from???

 

[B_Nick4444]

let's examine that

if we are to look at the Nazis, they persecuted Jews, Gypsies, Slavs

Hitler used his support among gays to gain power, and then turned against them, and "medical" efforts were made to try to get them to conform to the Aryan norm, and, of course, they were persecuted mercilessly by both the Nazis, and their fellow prisoners

their fellow prisoners, for much the same reason -- failure to conform to the cultural norm

so are you possibly hinting at a distinction that no one has made?

for the sake of argument, we'll make it for you -- is there a biological basis for being gay? is that the basis for "minority" ascription?

so are Afro-Americans (which is what we believe was the term used earlier) biologically different? for that matter, is there a biological distinction to be made among the categories of the persecuted victims of Nazi ideology?

or, is it solely one of ascription?

 

[Industrialsize]

let's examine that

if we are to look at the Nazis, they persecuted Jews, Gypsies, Slavs

Hitler used his support among gays to gain power, and then turned against them, and "medical" efforts were made to try to get them to conform to the Aryan norm, and, of course, they were persecuted mercilessly by both the Nazis, and their fellow prisoners

their fellow prisoners, for much the same reason -- failure to conform to the cultural norm

so are you possibly hinting at a distinction that no one has made?

for the sake of argument, we'll make it for you -- is there a biological basis for being gay? is that the basis for "minority" ascription?

so are Afro-Americans (which is what we believe was the term used earlier) biologically different? for that matter, is there a biological distinction to be made among the categories of the persecuted victims of Nazi ideology?

or, is it solely one of ascription?

It's not worth having this discussion with you. Discrimination against Gays is NOT a mental exercise that you seem intent to make it..........have a nice life and I hope you don't get gay bashed.

 

[B_Nick4444]

ok, dude!

don't mean to antagonize you

we hope not to be gay bashed either ... or bashed for being an ass hole ... or bashed for ...

 

[D_Cateryke Cheesysmell]

Maybe this is too simplistic, but can't you just write a living will that says " i authorize X to make medical decisions for me if i am incapacitated, i want X to be able to visit me during normal hours, I authorize X to have my power of attorney, etc"? Social security benefits are then the next big thing...

 

[Industrialsize]

Maybe this is too simplistic, but can't you just write a living will that says " i authorize X to make medical decisions for me if i am incapacitated, i want X to be able to visit me during normal hours, I authorize X to have my power of attorney, etc"? Social security benefits are then the next big thing...

That doesn't quite cover it:

• Right to benefits while married:
  • employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges
  • per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating
  • Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances)
  • sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits
• Larger benefits under some programs if married, including:
  • veteran's disability
  • Supplemental Security Income
  • disability payments for federal employees
  • medicaid
  • property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans
  • income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates
  • wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3]
• Joint and family-related rights:
  • joint filing of bankruptcy permitted
  • joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records
  • family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
  • next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
  • custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
  • domestic violence intervention
  • access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods
• Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
• Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
• Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens
• Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime
• Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse
• Court notice of probate proceedings
• Domestic violence protection orders
• Existing homestead lease continuation of rights
• Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption
• Funeral and bereavement leave
• Joint adoption and foster care
• Joint tax filing
• Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
• Legal status with stepchildren
• Making spousal medical decisions
• Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver
• Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation
• Right of survivorship of custodial trust
• Right to change surname upon marriage
• Right to enter into prenuptial agreement
• Right to inheritance of property
• Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege)
• For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse's benefits, including:
  • Social Security pension
  • veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing
  • survivor benefits for federal employees
  • survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers
  • additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease
  • $100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty
  • continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits
  • renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse
  • continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances
  • payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death
  • making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts

 

[Pendlum]

Maybe this is too simplistic, but can't you just write a living will that says " i authorize X to make medical decisions for me if i am incapacitated, i want X to be able to visit me during normal hours, I authorize X to have my power of attorney, etc"? Social security benefits are then the next big thing...

What Indy said. And on top of that it is just insulting and unfair (some would say unconstitutional, and I would agree) in my opinion that a gay person HAS to do that in order give his/her partner SOME of the same rights that heterosexual couples receive for just being married.