The Creation Museum, I'm not kidding folks.

B_big dirigible

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I am trying to get my head round the fact that light has not always travelled at the same speed to the point that what would look like 14,000,000,000,000 years is actually 6,000.
The invariance of some of our physical "constants" is mainly an assumption.

With Universal Gravitation, Newton postulated that the force which causes an apple to fall is the exact same force which keeps the Moon in its orbit. The planets are kept in their courses by similar forces. Although he postulated the form of this force (F=Gm1m2/r**2), he never measured the gravitational constant, G, itself. When Cavendish measured it a few years later, he did it by observing the acceleration of two lead spheres in a laboratory. If Newton was right about that "universal" stuff, then G as measured in a laboratory here on the earth should be the same G which governs the motions of the planets. Subsequent observations are consistent with that assumption. But it's still an assumption. We have no direct evidence that the local G is identical to the G which rules the motions of, say, the stars in the Clouds of Magellan. Lacking evidence one way or the other, we assume that it is. Furthermore, we assume that it's always been the same as it is now. That assumptions is perhaps less justified, but again it's mostly consistent with observation. If it did change in the past, some odd things would have happened. For one thing, the earth might have changed size. This would in fact be consistent with the old observation that the cratons (the rafts of crustal material which form the continents) can be fit together with no interstitial spaces (that is, no ocean basins) on an earth approximately half the diameter of the modern Earth. That's not actually evidence of anything, so the assumption that the gravitational constant is indeed constant throughout all of space and time is not seriously threatened. Not yet, anyway. There are some anomalies in the structure of the arms of spiral and barred spiral galaxies, and our understanding of Universal Gravitation can't account well for those. There are a few other problems too. But lacking better theories, we've retained the assumption of invariance throughout time and space, parochial though that may turn out to be.

The speed of light is also assumed to be an invariant, although small variations continue to crop up in actual measurements. These are usually dismissed as experimental errors, but that's perhaps a bit glib. If the speed of light has actually changed during the life of the universe, there would be major repercussions. For one, the interpretation of red shift of the spectra of distant objects would need serious revision. Conservation of energy might also need to be reexamined. The idea that a photon retains its energy while traveling for a billion years or so is an assumption - an assumption consistent with some observations, but perhaps not entirely consistent with others.

There are loads of similar assumptions in science, such as the isotropy of space - the idea that the properties of the universe are the same in all directions. Maybe they are, maybe they ain't. Measurements show that they are, but better measurements may show otherwise. We assume that rates of atomic decay are not only time and space invariant, but are independent of outside forces; and again, observation in the main supports those assumptions. For now. The positive atomic charge - the one carried by protons - is assumed to be exactly equal to the negative charge of the electron. This has been measured, to something like one part in ten to the 27th - a very small number, but not necessarily zero. Science is a maze of assumptions, in which we put faith mainly because they're consistent with each other.

Having said all that, I don't put any weight at all on the assertion that the speed of light has changed by a factor of over 20 million in historical times.
 

Blocko

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But of course, the great thing about applying reason (and science by extension) to faith is that god is an all powerful axiom. Any logical construct, it doesn't matter what holes there are, because god can do anything... Meaning that god is his own supporting evidence.

Hooray!
 

Lordpendragon

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Having said all that, I don't put any weight at all on the assertion that the speed of light has changed by a factor of over 20 million in historical times.

What effects would that have had on us, history and the universe had it happened within a 6000 year period? - That is what was wobbling my head.
 

rawbone8

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The invariance of some of our physical "constants" is mainly an assumption.
[...]


Science is a maze of assumptions, in which we put faith mainly because they're consistent with each other.

Having said all that, I don't put any weight at all on the assertion that the speed of light has changed by a factor of over 20 million in historical times.

Thanks for that, it is a delight to see your explanation.

Science gets deified by some, again, another example of human conceit.

We can forget it's all a work in progress, whether we seek comfort in religion or science, we are hungry for knowledge and exploration.
 

B_big dirigible

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So, in a nutshell, and, in the context of this thread - science is loosely analogous to faith, only more quantifiable.
A lot more quantifiable.

Science is a house, a perfectly good house, solid, tangible, with many rooms and - more importantly - doors, and various aspects - it looks one way from the front, another way from the back, still another way from above. But if a flaw develops in the foundation, part of the house may collapse. In that case, there is a procedure - not necessarily a terribly efficient one - for repairing the damaged foundation and rebuilding the collapsed part of the structure, making the entire house just a little bit sturdier. This involves faith only to the extent that we can have faith that the rebuilding program will in fact take place.

So when I say that science rests on assumptions, I'm not saying that it's all rubbish, or mere illusion. I'm pointing out that it's a living edifice which, sometimes, must adapt in the light of new knowledge or events. These adaptations are not failures; more accurately, they should be considered strengths. "Change" ideally means improvement.

Asserting that something is true because it's believed to be "scientific" is a matter of faith. In that sense, science and faith are linked. Social Darwinism and Marxism are good examples of the havoc which follows popular blind faith in something which, though not actually understood in a scientific sense, is believed to be so because of its claimed (though undemonstrated) "scientific" virtues.
 

Blocko

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There is no "faith" about it, that would be unscientific.

To describe science as a "maze of assumptions" is to subtract the fact that it is based on a reasoned and formal logical system (the scientific method). There may be axioms in each system, but the boundary conditions of each axiom are known (that is, the subset of conditions under which a result is correct is known).

Scientists don't put "faith" in "assumptions", they "observe" something called "evidence", which either fits in to their logical construct or disproves it by contradiction (i.e. shows that the boundary conditions they have constructed are false).

Science is a maze of assumptions, in which we put faith mainly because they're consistent with each other.
 

biguy2738

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To add to Freddie's excellent explanation about the Creation stories and oral tradition, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that the Bible is not a history text book, it is a book on theology...on communities gradual growth in understanding of God. The creation stories were written using mythological language - stories were used containing symbols to explain a reality beyond our comprehension. Most of the literature of the Ancient Near East is characterised by the use of mythological language and motifs. The Israelites are not exempt from this approach. They reworked and modified various myths to make them a suitable literary expression of their distinctive religious faith which is based on their covenant with God.

There are two striking examples of similarities between Genesis and some Ancient Near East neighbouring communities. The first is the Babylonian story of creation known as Enuma Elish, the Israelites used the broad outline of this myth (seven day framework) but not the theology. The second example is the Genesis story of Noah and the flood. There is an astonishing similarity to the one in the Bible. The only distinct difference is that the Israelites God is faithful and just - he only punishes moral evil, but also forgives. in the Babylonian version, the gods are unpredictable and humans are never sure what to expect of them.

There are excellent books on this: Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East by Victor H Matthews and Don C Benjamin. I'm not certain how accessable the other one is as its a book published by the University of South Africa, its called A Brief History of Creation by P J van Dyk, which includes African creation mythology as well.

Another excellent resource is called The Five Books of Moses, by Everett Fox. He is a Scripture Scholar that works with Rabbis in retranslating the Bible from the ancient Hebrew texts. This book is the retranslation of the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) with commentary etc. The author was one of the religious advisors used in the making of the animated movie, The Prince of Egypt.
 

rawbone8

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There is no "faith" about it, that would be unscientific.

To describe science as a "maze of assumptions" is to subtract the fact that it is based on a reasoned and formal logical system (the scientific method). There may be axioms in each system, but the boundary conditions of each axiom are known (that is, the subset of conditions under which a result is correct is known).

Scientists don't put "faith" in "assumptions", they "observe" something called "evidence", which either fits in to their logical construct or disproves it by contradiction (i.e. shows that the boundary conditions they have constructed are false).

:biggrin1: are you calling big dirigible a heretic?
 

B_ScaredLittleBoy

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WTF.

Is it not in the bible to help your fellow man? $27M/£14M could have been spent in much better ways and saved lives. What a joke.

The bible is a book but it isn't a history book, its a STORY book. Just like all the other books and stories were from past eras (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, even Prehistoric).

God is about is believable as Snow White and Tom Thumb. And this 'museum' or 'fancy church' is a complete waste of money and only serves men's greed and vanity over the bible. I really hope this is one of those "Only in America" things.
 

Freddie53

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You are taking it literally; you are trying to redefine the word "day" so that it can be taken literally. But the text simply can't be beaten into some form which allows day to mean any arbitrary unit of time. The text is actually quite specific; a "day" can't be read to mean, say, "a billion years". The only interpretation of scripture which allows that flexibility would be to regard it all as purely allegorical.
And that is what I consider the book of Genesis to be - primarily allegorical with some of the history as accurate as any ancient text from that time frame to be accurate.

I know the next part and it is how do we determine which parts are allegorical and which parts are not. The answer is a matter of faith and belief. I believe that all people are free to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves and that no priest or preacher has to intercede or tell us how to interpret it. Preach from it yes. Have the right to take away our own ability to read and interpret ourselves no.

And no two people are going to interpret such a book as the Bible identically.

There are Christians who believe the Virgin Birth is a myth as it is only mentioned in one Gospel but accept the Resurrection of Jesus. There are Christians who will tell you that if you don't believe in the Virgin Birth you are going straight to hell in a hand basket. The actual definition of Christian is Christ like or a follower of Jesus. A person could be a follower of Jesus and not accept his divinity. In early Christianity there were those who did not believe Jesus was divine, but they called themselves Christians.

The whole point I am making here is that to rationally have a debate about the Creation Story, some givens have to be agreed to. A literalist and a non literalist aren't ever going to come to an agreed understanding on the length of a "day" in Genesis.

Also in Biblical study I believe we have to use this tool. "What did this Scripture mean to them now and what does it mean to us today.?

Your knowledge is obviously great about this subject. And I don't think anyone would believe that suddenly we at the LPSG would be the ones to unlock the secrets for the world. Though that would be hilarious if the real truth came from the LPSG. I can see Jana now as we are being interviewed world wide with this great news. :biggrin1:
 

madame_zora

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1. There is a lot more to Big Dirge than meets the eye. If you ever find his posts insufferable, it's because you haven't read enough of them. Nice pic, cutie pie.

2. I am angry for some very good reasons. Here's another one:

Google Image Result for http://static.flickr.com/70/226415385_db6fe75fb9.jpg

This enormous piece of [work] erupting out of a lake is what I pass on every trip to Columbus I make. Now you may understand that I have constant reminders of exactly how stupid the people who surround me really are. I find this both embarassing and disgusting, and there's really no way to just ignore it, nor the gigantic larger-than-house sized roadsigns of the ten commandments, nor the signs assuring me that sinners are going to HELL. I live in a fucked up place, and the calm majority keeping it in check is getting smaller and smaller all the time. I'm not sure if the calm majority is aware of this.


edit- holy shit! The woman who took that pic is named Jana! It's not me, but that's pretty cool- I don't find many namesakes.
 

Freddie53

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To add to Freddie's excellent explanation about the Creation stories and oral tradition, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that the Bible is not a history text book, it is a book on theology...on communities gradual growth in understanding of God. The creation stories were written using mythological language - stories were used containing symbols to explain a reality beyond our comprehension. Most of the literature of the Ancient Near East is characterised by the use of mythological language and motifs. The Israelites are not exempt from this approach. They reworked and modified various myths to make them a suitable literary expression of their distinctive religious faith which is based on their covenant with God.
Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate those sources you listed and examples given of similarities of ancient cultures. For those who may not realize it. The cultures listed are from ancient Iraq. The Hebrew people originated there and then later were exiled there after being independent for several centuries. It is understandable how both cultures had a lot of similar stories.
 

dong20

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A lot more quantifiable.

I agree with you, I also had a science focussed education, more so after the age of 11. Despite my first 6 years being at a church sponsored school, I suppose one could say it was 'balanced'.

So when I say that science rests on assumptions, I'm not saying that it's all rubbish, or mere illusion. I'm pointing out that it's a living edifice which, sometimes, must adapt in the light of new knowledge or events. These adaptations are not failures; more accurately, they should be considered strengths. "Change" ideally means improvement.

Far from it and correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen an obnoxious strand of arrogance within the scientific community or rather in some parts of it. A resistance to new ideas which may challenge established patterns of thinking or sometimes the introduction of entirely new ones.

This is nothing new, and while historically such resistance may have been at least in part rooted in a fear of challenging established norms. In an era of religious domination where science was often bordering on, if not squarely in the camp of heresy I can understand that. The scientific establishment taking a stance of scientific orthodoxy if you will.

These days it's hard to conclude this represents much more than ego. The scientific establishment resistant to having its assumptions challenged by new ideas even when the evidence is compelling. In a sense seeing such ideas almost as scientific heterodoxy.

This seems to fly in the face of scientific principles, at least the ones I learned - that assumptions must be challenged. As religious fundementalism or orthodoxy is not in step with the principles of religious tolerance for other ideas that I also learned.

Social Darwinism and Marxism are good examples of the havoc which follows popular blind faith in something which, though not actually understood in a scientific sense, is believed to be so because of its claimed (though undemonstrated) "scientific" virtues.

When I was much younger I often had trouble trying to reconcile religion and science, at the 'creation' level I still do. But I've long since learned to put that aside and accept that in everyday life one need not be the antithesis of the other and on a day to day basis I don't give it much thought.

With the drift toward religious fundamentalism and the increasingly strident response by those on both sides of the 'divide' I see a growing polarisation of chosen 'faiths'. Such polarisations have disturbing historical parallels and that worries me far more than either belief structure on its own.
 

biguy2738

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I in turn, Freddie, appreciate the fact that I am able to encounter a Christian that is not misinterpreting the Bible and then proceeding to bash everyone around them. It really is encouraging for me!