the definition of homosexual sex

coachreffn

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I want to thank the OP for posing this question. I certainly have been informed and instructed as to the nature of sex and sexual expression. Certainly other cultures view its nature/expression differently (though the whole penetrated/penetrator thing from the Arabic world confounds me). Thank you all for your insights...and yeah, Hilaire rocks it on this. Thanks H.
 
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deleted3782

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Sex = Anything Considered Sexual In Nature Between 2 [Or More] Persons.
Sexual Intercourse = The Sexual Act of Penetration.
Homosexual Sex = 'Refer to [Sex]' + Of The Same Sex.
Heterosexual Sex = 'Refer to [Sex]' + Of The Opposite Sex.

But what about bisexual sex? The US courts are having to sort it out:

The five ballplayers summoned before a protest committee at the Gay Softball World Series stood accused of cheating. Their alleged offense: heterosexuality.

Inside a small room, surrounded by committee members and other softball officials, the players said they were interrogated about their sexual orientation. Confusion reigned. According to court records, one player declined to say whether he was gay or straight but acknowledged being married to a woman. Another answered yes to both gay and heterosexual definitions. A third asked if bisexual was acceptable and was told, “This is the Gay World Series, not the Bisexual World Series.”



Ultimately, the committee ruled that three of the five were “nongay” and stripped the team of its second-place finish.
I know...bisexuals have hetro sex and homo sex...but still. :rolleyes:

From the New York Times
 

D_Meurius_Rump

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I want to thank the OP for posing this question. I certainly have been informed and instructed as to the nature of sex and sexual expression. Certainly other cultures view its nature/expression differently (though the whole penetrated/penetrator thing from the Arabic world confounds me). Thank you all for your insights...and yeah, Hilaire rocks it on this. Thanks H.
No problem. I'm just glad others share the same curiosity for the topic and took time to explain their opinions and thoughts. Oh, and I wouldn't mind finding out a little what gay sex is with you buddy, just sayin :tongue:
 
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LordDivineFist

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Logically speaking and from a technical standpoint, Sex is a broad term while gay is to secular of a word. Homosexuality, and Intercourse should be the words we focus on in this discussion. As far as Homosexuality goes, we all know that to be a homosexual, you have to have some kind of "sexual" attraction to members of your own gender male or female. To have intercourse is generally to perform activities that stimulate the genitals and to arouse your partner "sexually." So no matter how you look at it "gay sex" could be any intimate activity performed with a member of the same gender. This is inclusive but not limited to:
Mutual masturbation
Fellatio, cunnilingus, analingus
Sensual touch (of any kind)
Fondling
Deep Kissing
Penetration
Frotting
etc.
I love hearing how straight men and women who have had these kinds of encounters justify them by saying "It wasn't gay if.." sorry to burst the bubble there...but it "WAS" gay...that doesn't particularly make you a homosexual if it's only one or two incidences, nor does it make you completely bi-sexual either. It means you're an open individual who was comfortable enough in your own sexuality that you decided to explore, and that's healthy. :3
 

Bbucko

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I knew this thread would do well because there simply is not one definite answer. From what I gather, all "sexual acts" are still considered sex in some way or another. But alas the question still remains- is it still sex if it does NOT lead to an orgasm?

Let's try and un-couple (pun intended) orgasm and sex, especially ejaculation and sex: they are not mutually inclusive.

I practice a tantric sort of edging and can go for hours (and hours) riding waves of bliss, but with no ejaculation anywhere in sight, though I am enjoying near-constant body orgasm. I'm a top, so my centers of sexual focus are my penis and, to a slightly lesser degree, my nipples.

I have played with many bottoms, of all ages, who focus on their asses to the exclusion of their penises, whether in short-duration sessions or marathon 12-14 hour ones. They were having sex but ejaculation simply wasn't in the equation.

As to BDSM and other forms of extreme play: the sensations are sexualized joy, for sure, but the ordinary rules of your average 30-minute encounter hardly apply. Whether as a Dom or a sub, most of the action isn't even directed toward the genitals specifically; in a case like fisting, it obviously is, but, again, is unlikely to produce ejaculation all by itself. WS is its own category, too, of sexualized action unlikely to induce ejaculation.

I'm a first believer in Dan Savage's rule regarding what is and is not gay sex: regardless of the acts performed, if they're being performed by members of the opposite sex, then it's not gay. It's no more gay to have a BF pegged by his wife than it's straight when two lesbians engage in the same act.

Sociologists and medical professionals use the term MSM: it's a clinical term meaning males having sex with males. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation or even gender identification: if both parties have penises, then it's MSM, period.
 

D_Meurius_Rump

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I don't get why this is such a confusing issue for people... gay sex is sex between two people of the same sex... any sexual activity will do.

but see, it is an issue, seems as though there are differing definitions of gay sex even within our own community. Just today I was on a date with a guy who said he lost his "virginity" to his room mate, and when I questioned him on what that meant to him exactly he quickly clarified to him it meant "anal deflowering"
 
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D_Meurius_Rump

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Let's try and un-couple (pun intended) orgasm and sex, especially ejaculation and sex: they are not mutually inclusive.

understood, now more than ever I am realizing this is the truth.

I have played with many bottoms, of all ages, who focus on their asses to the exclusion of their penises, whether in short-duration sessions or marathon 12-14 hour ones. They were having sex but ejaculation simply wasn't in the equation.

As to BDSM and other forms of extreme play: the sensations are sexualized joy, for sure, but the ordinary rules of your average 30-minute encounter hardly apply. Whether as a Dom or a sub, most of the action isn't even directed toward the genitals specifically; in a case like fisting, it obviously is, but, again, is unlikely to produce ejaculation all by itself. WS is its own category, too, of sexualized action unlikely to induce ejaculation.

great examples, sometimes I think people have a hard time thinking outside of the box and remembering sex isn't black and white.
 

alpinepaul

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but see, it is an issue, seems as though there are differing definitions of gay sex even within our own community. Just today I was on a date with a guy who said he lost his "virginity" to his room mate, and when I questioned him on what that meant to him exactly he quickly clarified to him it meant "anal deflowering"

so you want an ultimate final definition by some gay lawmakers?
 

gert123

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I have have been wrestling with this concept my whole life. I am a gay male, 25 years old, and to this day I struggle to understand the boundaries and qualifications for "gay sex". Some consider any penetrative contact (oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex, possibly even rimming) to be sex, though many gay men I have discussed this with consider gay sex to be anal sex- that oral and rimming is only foreplay. When you are a gay man, what constitutes as not being virgin anymore? And also, is "virginism" is essence a hetero concept to begin with? Thanks for any answers or insight anyone can give me :)

To me, gay sex doesn't need to be an act. My thoughts tell me I am gay. i think about men, not woman, thus I am gay. The acts I perform are just that, actions.
I borrow the virginity concept form straight sex. Unless I get penetrated, I am a virgin. For gay guys it is not that easy to classify as i know a few people that never had anal sex, and never will but are not virgins. Neither am I in that sense.

I am still struggling with the concept of being gay, but slowly starting to get there. In resent days I realized (again!) that it is your life. Only you can make you happy. Do what makes YOU happy, not others.
 

D_Meurius_Rump

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To me, gay sex doesn't need to be an act. My thoughts tell me I am gay. i think about men, not woman, thus I am gay. The acts I perform are just that, actions.
I borrow the virginity concept form straight sex. Unless I get penetrated, I am a virgin. For gay guys it is not that easy to classify as i know a few people that never had anal sex, and never will but are not virgins. Neither am I in that sense.

I am still struggling with the concept of being gay, but slowly starting to get there. In resent days I realized (again!) that it is your life. Only you can make you happy. Do what makes YOU happy, not others.
oh I understand this wholeheartedly, I am indeed proud to be gay and try to do what makes me happy, including what I do in sex. In fact, I have never had anal sex nor is it at the top of my list. Thats one factor that lead me to the creation of this thread anyhow. So not so much a matter of accepting that I'm gay but more so a discussion on what sex means to different people, and when "virginism" if you will, comes into play
 

MeinTeil

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My two cents at this late date...

The OP mentioned the idea that the whole concept of virginity is tied up in heterosexual sex, which I hadn't really thought about but that's really it.

Oral sex, anal sex, etc. traditionally isn't sex - it's sodomy. "Sex" in that context means penis-vagina sex exclusively, so having that experience meant losing one's virginity whether male or female. Very black & white, no gray.

Once you leave that context, 'virginity' gets very gray. When to declare one's virginity revoked when there's oral active, oral passive, anal active, anal passive, two genders, etc. etc.

Me personally I would consider one to have lost his "gay virginity" once he has fucked or gotten fucked, lining up with the heterosexual principle. OTOH, my first time with a guy did not involve that yet I was quite aware that a line had been crossed. FWIW.
 
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BBB2.5

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They way I see it , any form of sexual engagement that involves penetration of either end the male body is considered sex. Mutual masturbation with a climax is sex. Fondling and touching the male body that does not result in a climax..for me is for-play.
:smile:
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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My two cents at this late date...

The OP mentioned the idea that the whole concept of virginity is tied up in heterosexual sex, which I hadn't really thought about but that's really it.

Oral sex, anal sex, etc. traditionally isn't sex - it's sodomy. "Sex" in that context means penis-vagina sex exclusively, so having that experience meant losing one's virginity whether male or female. Very black & white, no gray.

Once you leave that context, 'virginity' gets very gray. When to declare one's virginity revoked when there's oral active, oral passive, anal active, anal passive, two genders, etc. etc.

Me personally I would consider one to have lost his "gay virginity" once he has fucked or gotten fucked, lining up with the heterosexual principle. OTOH, my first time with a guy did not involve that yet I was quite aware that a line had been crossed. FWIW.




Hmmm, see I find this slightly baffling, I'm not criticising or anything, just kinda being honest.


See the problem for me about imposing that symmetry of Virginity=never having engaged in vaginal penetrative sex/bum fucking is composed of a number of questions really.

Firstly, I've met heterosexuals (not huge numbers but enough to make me wonder) who dated their loss of virginity to an act of non-vaginally penetrative sex, and in general these people were male, which has always made me think that in heterosexual terms the concept of virginity is sex discriminative. Heterosexual women in my experience tend to date their loss of virginity to the first time they had penetrative vaginal sex but there are some heterosexual men (and women for that matter, though a lot fewer) who date it to other kinds of sex, normally it involved the first time a girl ever made them cum.

In fact, if you look at the whole concept of virginity there's always historically been more focus on it as an aspect of female sexuality. Many cultures imposed the demand that women keep their virginity and their hymens intact as long as possible, indeed preferably until marriage, and while male virginity was in some ways also highly prized in some cultures there's always been less focus on it in the majority of the larger historically attested cultures around the world, and what male virginity is exactly was always less clearly defined, rather conveniently (or indeed incoveniently for our purposes). Even in christian cultures (where virginity was often an almost sacred or holy state, in theory) a greater degree of double standardisation and hypocrisy has often existed on the matter.


So attempting to impose what is already a fairly unclear standard, and a set of extremely malleable rules garnered from heterosexual sexual culture on Gay sex where formal definitions of what sex is are even now not agreed upon seems at best problematical.

I mean we could apply the same standard exactly and say that virginity is lossed by participating in an act in which you are penetrated by a penis, but why we would decide to make the anus the analogue of the vagina for these purposes, rather than or to the exclusion of the mouth, is unclear to me. And this applies to the notional penetrator too, why penetration of an anus rather than of a mouth is analogous to penetrating a vagina is unclear.

And we could say that if another member of the same sex as you performs as sex act on you that makes you ejaculate then you've lost your virginity (which is at least sometimes the standard heterosexual men apply to themselves) but that would include a very broad range of activities and besides would have to apply to both partners. The other problem with this is that while I'm sure it's rare it's nonetheless a fact that penetrative sex acts might not lead to ejaculation and we end up saying that even if you've fucked someone and not ejaculated you remain a virgin, or that if someone has fucked you but you didn't ejaculate during the fucking then you remain a virgin, unless someone else fucking you and ejaculating thereby (even if you don't) counts as loss of virginity on the receptive partner's part, which seems to me to be even more illogical.

For Lesbian sex the above criteria become even more troublesome.


So what we're left with, which was kinda my first suggestion in the thread, is that if you engage in a sex act which has the possibility of producing an orgasm in either participant, regardless of whether an actual orgasm ever occurred, then you've lost your homosexual virginity. It's broad I know, but it's probably the most logical and certainly least complicated way of viewing virginity in a same sex sex situation. :redface:
 
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B_crackoff

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Well thought & a quite complex, however, I've known people who've come simply from nipple play & even foot sucking - the mind can be a powerful tool.

Most women in the world would go mental at a guy who said he'd taken their virginity, by that act, or any othe act other than penetration.

If heterosexual sexual play short of penile penetration doesn't count as intercourse, it seems impossible that homsexual sexual play of exactly the same source would do either.

I think it's best resolved by paranthesis - "virginity" rather than virginity - jacking a guy or girl off isn't an intimate union of sexual parts, though I can fully understand the importance of such a first occasion. It still doesn't count, & I can't believe that straight guys would count oral, or mutual, once they were over the age of 25!

I would think that anyone who has had relations with another man would find the act of penetration a far more significant step.

Maybe we should return to the happier euphemism, "losing my **** cherry"?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

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Well thought & a quite complex, however, I've known people who've come simply from nipple play & even foot sucking - the mind can be a powerful tool.

Most women in the world would go mental at a guy who said he'd taken their virginity, by that act, or any othe act other than penetration.

If heterosexual sexual play short of penile penetration doesn't count as intercourse, it seems impossible that homsexual sexual play of exactly the same source would do either.

I think it's best resolved by paranthesis - "virginity" rather than virginity - jacking a guy or girl off isn't an intimate union of sexual parts, though I can fully understand the importance of such a first occasion. It still doesn't count, & I can't believe that straight guys would count oral, or mutual, once they were over the age of 25!

I would think that anyone who has had relations with another man would find the act of penetration a far more significant step.

Maybe we should return to the happier euphemism, "losing my **** cherry"?



So by your measure would all Lesbians who have never had sex with men count as virgins?



Also I find this notion that men "take" a woman's virginity by the act of penetrative sex strange, I mean I understand the idea of loosing one's virginity (whatever sex you are or whatever sex you're engaging in) but how do men take a woman's virginity exactly....

It's one of those phrases that somehow doesn't make sense.


Mind you I didn't say that some men I know had said they'd taken a woman's virginity with non-penetrative sex, I said that some men I know had dated the loss of their own virginity to an act of non-penetrative sex with a woman.... though I'll grant you I think they all said they were teenagers when this happened, which fits with your 25 or over cut off.
 
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B_crackoff

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I know, the world is tying itself up in knots:smile:. It's just that the things a woman can do to another woman can also be done by a man (though maybe not always as well), & a man doing that wouldn't be classified by a woman as taking her virginity.

I wouldn't even be able to begin to comprehend what to call initial transgender or hermaphrodite sexual functions based upon the difficulties with lesbian activies, but I'm pretty sure that they'll all call it what they want & sod the rest of us!:cool:

I guess this is how words change meaning over time. Soon, who knows what "go fuck yourself" will mean without a clearer direction?:rolleyes: