The Demise of Guys

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by southernstud, Jan 31, 2012.

  1. southernstud

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    Many know Philip Zimbardo from his famous prison experiments back in the day, but in more recent years he has been giving talks at TED. The one I found in my iTunes library from a while back struct me, yet again, and it is entitled The Demise of Guys.

    Philip Zimbardo: The demise of guys? - YouTube

    Check it out (it's pretty short).

    I've been giving it some thought, since it is my generation that he's discussing, and what's your take? Are the points valid? Are men really in trouble? Thoughts please.

    Side note: TED is pretty amazing. There are lots of great topics...especially if you are into emerging ideas.
     
  2. rbkwp

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    haha love the thread topic,
    often thought that, be a few months before i can view you tube ( on BB ) will comment then, if i remember ha
     
  3. Thirdlegproduction

    Thirdlegproduction Formerly WhiteMonst3r
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    I can somewhat relate to this post made there

    I think there is a lack of male rolemodels nowadays and in schools the people who guide us are mostly women and at home it's tv, games and porn which confuses a lot of people I think about who or what they should be or act like.

    Thing is, women have made a big jump forward socialy and mentaly and men for the most part got left behind.
    I see it all around me, and I have been in that position too in my teens but I'd like to think I adapted quite well and there is hope but I think as a man you do have to step up.
     
  4. RodRingo

    RodRingo New Member

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    Interesting. Though Zimbardo is largely a social psychologists. So his propositions will have its roots in the fundamentals of social psychology.

    If you believe in another paradigm of psychology, such as biological psychology, then you aren't likely to agree with him.

    In other words, Zimbaro is all nurture (environment affects us; doesn't seem to account for genetics) whilst if you believe in nature (genetics affect us; no acknowledgement of the environment) you're not as likely to think he's credible. That's because you can easily argue that males genetically cannot cope with a 'woman of today'.

    That's only a nature-v-nurture debate.

    Now if you take Zimbaro's stance further and bring in sociology:

    You can say girls only do better because generally they're not given as much freedom has boys, so therefore they'll essentially study more and evidently get better.
    The premise for this is that parents are usually more strict with girls than they are with boys.
    So girls are more likely to be pushed to study as well.

    Though I think its a little more complex than Zimbardo makes out; he does not acknowledge various subcultures, social class and what not. All very vital factors which can explain why boys don't do as well.
    For example you can say Jamaican boys have this laddish culture the BBC reported which links to educational failure; note how Zimbardo didn't even bring in ethnicity, another vital factor with these things.

    Another example Marxist approach would be that status frustration gets boys more than it does girls, thus they don't comply with the system. This can coincide with the biological argument; testosterone makes males more, y'know.

    Or the simple argument of false entitlement. Boys normally are told that they can do this, or that, at an early age. So perhaps they don't work as hard as girls thus don't ever gain the achievements they felt entitled to.


    But one key thing Zimbardo skirted over was the glass ceiling... if boys are doubtlessly doomed then why does the class ceiling exist?
     
  5. cocktaste

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    See, here's the problem with these people, they want a return to boys dominating women. You did not hear people screaming about girls not being academically equal when it came to boys in school. So what if women do better? Good for them! It'd be nice if people were really worried about men failing in school, but there's always another agenda at hand, and it always stems from this 1950s view of what a man is suppose to be. They still see femininity as a weakness.

    This guy defended Ivan Frederick over Abu Ghraib, with a ridiculous excuse.

    What's with this stand-up routine?
     
  6. Phil Ayesho

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    There is no glass ceiling... at least- not the glass ceiling as everyone imagines it.
    That is a feminist myth, meaning to imply that men are advantaged (in general) over women in the workplace.

    There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case.

    The truth is that 99.9% or women have no real chance of getting into the upper reaches of executive management... and that 99.8% of men similarly have no real chance of advancement beyond a certain point.

    Its NOT a gender issue... its a "who you know" issue. the "good old boys" club was, in fact a club full of boys... but that was because, prior to the birth control pill, women's careers were mostly cut off due to childbearing responsibilities.
    All the good old boys were men because of how society evolved to care for women and children.

    Women's access to higher power positions simply was going to take time, until enough of them had advanced to form a good old girls club.

    Today, quite a few CEO's are women. As their fortunes grow and their influence becomes ensconced, They will start to be in control of who gets past the glass ceiling just as much as men traditionally did.

    But the truth is the glass ceiling is not a gender bias, its a wealth and family bias.

    And it is no different than the fact that the children of Hollywood power players are more likely to get film careers than those without such connections.



    As to men...

    women wanted a feminized culture, and that's what they got ( so much for the patriarchy... men become whatever women dictate they be for access to women) If they can't find a man that's fuckable, its their own doing.

    There is going to be a swing of the pendulum back, tho... Men are going to demand that their perspectives be given equal validity, simply because men are not hormonally going to be able to become much more feminized than they already have.

    And post feminist women all over America are rapidly coming to the conclusion than they prefer the men who are men. That change in female choice alone will tend to equalize things.
     
  7. RodRingo

    RodRingo New Member

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    ^I'm with you on the whole. Though you could also argue that the glass ceiling is a gender bias because society conditions women to forgo careers for family etc. At least, from some feminist perspectives.


    Personally I don't think the guys are doomed as a whole. Zimbardo, as I previously mentioned, lumped guys together.
    He's not accounting for other social factors, socio-economic statuses, subcultures etc.

    Unless he suggests we should do something about this in which case... he's not really saying anything different to your conventional sociologist who is against - gender - inequality.
     
  8. Phil Ayesho

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    Yes, The idea that society conditions women to forego careers is propaganda.

    Biology makes women want babies... and babies make women want to be good mothers... and women decide for themselves if, for them, that means being there full time.

    Women who have HAD careers often choose to forego their career, or scale it back the minute they find a guy willing to go along with them staying home to raise the kids.

    For a lot of women, access to careers and advancement has proven to not be the golden field of joy their mothers thought it was in agitating for employment equality.

    They have discovered that men die younger, not because of their genes, but because of the stress of being the primary provider. That the workplace is a field of combat.
    They have discovered that most people look forward to retirement because working for someone else is hard.

    I go out in the world, here, in one of the more affluent areas of the country, and what I see in the middle of the day are SUVs carrying affluent wives shopping... and the shop girls who wait on them, who can't afford to stay at home, they look at them with envy.

    The key to that lifestyle is valuing the fact that men, especially men who have some advantage in the workplace, are wiling to foot the bill.

    Some women have the choice of career, housewife, or a mix.

    Us men largely get no choice but to work till we die or can accrue enough to retire.

    But perhaps... as women gain wealth, and career prestige, and opportunity... they may start switching their tune and find themselves willing to financially support a man... one to support their careers, as women have traditionally supported men's... or ones who work a more manly trade that pays far less...


    But even those men will still have the one main male trait... their willingness to do anything to please a woman.
     
  9. southernstud

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    i am loving all the replies. It's definitely a topic that drew my attention. Though I want to add my $0.02 to a few things...

    I agree, to an extent. Contemporary psychologists tend to not be set in the ways of just one paradigm. Their initial approach may be geared in one direction, but it stems into the other branches using the same train-of-thought.

    For example: Zimbardo discussed the arousal addition aspect. To him, or from a social standpoint, it could very well be that it is a social pressure inducing the change of the individual. Yet, he is also hitting on a neuro-science perspective of the argument, too. Arousal addiction is a heavily studied topic in all branches of psychology. If you're a neuro-guy, you care about how the brain's chemicals get you hooked and desensitized to the dopamine and other fun neurotransmitters. If you're a genetic guy, you'd realize "Yea, there's chemicals, but what would predispose an individual to caving to the temptation." Then there are people who are taking the social route and saying, "We see the cause and the effects, not much about the 'nitty gritty', but we see and need to recognize there's a problem."

    Since I used a few of the more prominent schools of psychology in my previous example...I figured I'd at least cover what Freud would have said: "Men are on the demise because they secretly want to overthrow their fathers, sleep with their mothers while women run around with penis envy and are going no where in society..." :)
     
  10. B_Hung Jon

    B_Hung Jon New Member

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    I would rephrase Feud this way: men are on the demise because they secretly want to overthrow their mothers' power, sleep with their fathers for male intimacy (which they lack) while women run around with their sisters (and friends) and are more interested in making more money and having status.
     
  11. coveryerteeth

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    "Guys" aren't going anywhere. This is yet another example of a privileged class losing its shit when its position of privilege begins to inevitably errode.
     
  12. blackbottom2

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    The demise of men is significantly acellerated in the more developed or "western" nations
     
  13. B_penispenispenis37

    B_penispenispenis37 New Member

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    Great news women!

    Apparently everything you have been complaining about isn't really true!

    Phil Ayesho says so!

    Rejoice!
     
  14. Phil Ayesho

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    Yeah... that's what I said.... sure.


    Um, try wrapping what passes for your brain around the idea that I did not suggest that there was no glass ceiling... I did not suggest that there wasn't an invisible barrier to advancement for women beyond a certain point.

    I just pointed out that it had nothing whatsoever to do with their gender.

    That a nearly equal percentage of MEN had no real chance at advancement beyond that point, either, and that advancement was actually, and still is, based upon who you know and to whom you are related.

    You honestly think Bush Jr would have been president if not for is family connections?

    And, BTW way- despite the fact that, now, a scant 30 years after the height of the feminist movement, women then 20 and now in their 50s ARE in the ranks of CEOs and the mega rich.... that ceiling is STILL there.
    99% of EVERYBODY is excluded from the filthy rich and powerful.

    Its not predicated upon gender. Its portfolio.
     
  15. spoon

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    <<<REAL BOYS: Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood---Dr. William Pollack.>>>Director of the Centers for Men and Young Men and the Director of Continuing Education (Psychology) at McLean Hospital
    Assistant Clinical Professor (Psychology) in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.

    Book came out in 1998. Book is interesting. I was trying to get my sister to read it when the book came out.
     
  16. Drifterwood

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    The examination system used to favour the way that the male brain works, it now favours how women's brains work. So the academic results thing is just a worry that access to higher education is now unequal against males. You need it to be fair otherwise we are all losers.

    I don't have a problem with the porn epidemic, it means that men don't need relationships for sex. Given the amount of vibrators et al bought every year and the apparent increase in porn use by women as well, it seems that we are all moving away from sex being a primary relationship motivator. This is good imo and we can renegotiate the T's and C's of our relationship contracts. I think I have made my views on state cntrolled marriage very clear in other threads.

    You couldn't do my job unless you were prepared to be away from a home for more than half of the year. I know a lot of very capable women who have found out for themselves that they can not have everything, even though they are capable of achieving it and delivering it. They make their choices and these tend to be a mother. Most have married in their peer group though and have successful husbands.
     
  17. Phil Ayesho

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    The thing about the porn epidemic is that it is nothing NEW about men... something men are interested in is simply far more available... I would venture to guess that internet access to gossip and fashion has resulted in a similar epidemic among women. I bet you women spend more time and money SHOPPING online ( when they ought to be doing their jobs) than men spend consuming porn online.

    However... one key factor in porn prevalence is the disappearance of the classic double standard. Used to be that the accommodation between women and men was that women would overlook discrete philandering as long as men agreed to eschew divorce.

    In today's more feminized culture, women are being far more demanding of their men being faithful. More economically empowered women coupled with lingering bias toward support and custody that shift men's money into the hands of divorcees places a huge pressure on men to be more faithful than ever in history.

    The natural result of that is that men turn more to vicarious stimulation, which increases their consumption of porn, especially after entering into LTR.

    Sorry Gals...
    you can't have everything you want... men have drives and needs just as powerful as yours, and suppressing them Here, means they manifest There.

    You can train a dog to stop chasing cars... but you can never get that look out of his eye when one rolls by...



    In a very real sense, Men USE porn to manage their urge to dally.
     
    #17 Phil Ayesho, Feb 3, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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