The end of democracy in America.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_Nick8, Jul 6, 2011.

  1. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    My mother is an extremely intelligent, even brilliant, well-educated woman. She is a world traveler. She is a knee-jerk liberal on social issues (she seems to have lost sight of that in answer as to how I came about), a serious feminist, pro-minority, anti capital punishment, pro-gay marriage, the whole bit. Even I was surprised to hear she thinks marijuana should be legalized and taxed.

    She is also descended from old money and her husband, even older. Therefor she votes with her pocket book. Today she sent me this (and I've just responded) although to exactly what purpose I'm unsure. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

    Worth the read.

    Love, Mom





    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of
    Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some
    2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
    permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
    the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts
    from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for
    the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with
    the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal
    policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of
    history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations
    always progressed through the following sequence:

    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."
    The Obituary follows:

    Born 1776, Died 2008
    It doesn't hurt to read this several times.


    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul ,
    Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the last
    Presidential election:

    Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
    Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
    Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2
    McCain: 2.1


    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was
    mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

    Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income
    tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
    "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy,
    with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached
    the "governmental dependency" phase.



    If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal
    invaders called illegal's - and they vote - then we can say goodbye to the
    USA in fewer than five years.

    If you are in favor of this, then by all means, delete this message.

    If you are not, then pass this along to help everyone realize just how much
    is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

    This is truly scary! Of course we are not a democracy, we are a
    Constitutional Republic . Someone should point this out to Obama. Of
    course we know he and too many others pay little attention to The
    Constitution. There couldn't be more at stake than on Nov 2012.
    If you are as concerned as I am please pass this along.



     
    #1 B_Nick8, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
  2. vince

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    The bit about Obama winning less sq. miles of land is hilarious and will be lapped up by tea-party ignorant fools.

    I agree with the Scottish professor though.
     
  3. MercyfulFate

    MercyfulFate New Member

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    The end of democracy is coming but not because of illegals and such. We are becoming a police state, step by step.
     
  4. sargon20

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    It's another chapter in the culture wars. This case it's top-down. The middle class is being gutted and it's their fault. If only they would work for pennis like they do in Mexico and China. That's the problem.
     
  5. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    I know. As I said to her, that stat and the "conclusions" to be drawn from it are absurd

    But as I also said, if Tyler's view on history is to be taken seriously, then it's inevitable anyway so why make such a fuss about it? The end of the world is coming, too. Eventually.
     
  6. Jason

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    Democracy is flawed. That doesn't mean it's not the best system we've got, but it is still deeply flawed.

    Democracy works best when it is limited. Constitutional monarchy provides the required check. The spiritual, courageous, libertarian elements required for a flourishing democracy are given constantly renewed impetus through the national focus of a monarch.
     
  7. backwoodsstud

    backwoodsstud Member

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    Excellent read!bravo!
     
  8. TomCat84

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    >>>Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was
    mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country.

    Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income
    tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."<<<

    Complete and unadulterated bullshit. He completely ignores the fact that overall- the states that voted for Obama pay MORE to the federal treasury then they get back (i.e. California, New York, Massachusetts), while the states that voted for McCain get more from the federal treasury then they send (i.e. Alaska, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc). Almost every single major city- the backbones of the U.S. economy- voted for Obama.
     
  9. D_Percy_Prettywillie

    D_Percy_Prettywillie Account Disabled

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    Alright, I'm trying to get to the mall from my hotel room. I ask person A the best way to get there and they tell me. I ask person B for directions, just to get clarification, and they tell me a different path. Both paths lead to the mall from my hotel room. One might be slightly faster than other, one might be more regularly patrolled by police looking for speeders, but ultimately they will lead me to the exact same place, eventually.

    That's the decision we're asked to make. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether we have a republican or a democrat in the White House. They'll both make promises they can't keep, they'll both continue the polices they campaign against, and they'll both be expected to fix things that are beyond their power in an unrealistic amount of time.

    What's stupid is pretending like leaning one way or the other is the path to destruction and chaos and "the end of democracy" and all that bull crap. We have a two party system. Both of them are trying to accomplish the same things; economic stability, domestic growth, international relationships, etc. It's not like one advocates for the end of civilization and the other doesn't. They want the same things they just have different ways to go about doing it.

    Using rhetoric like what was written at the end of that post might work on some idiot lemming but to sober, rational people it comes off as exactly what it is- bull shit.



    JSZ
     
  10. willow78

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    I wish there were jobs like that in Australia. :biggrin1:
     
  11. 1kmb1

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    so now we only have 48 states? and obama won 29 (+dc) states.

    plus he dominated the popular vote, im not going to bother with the overall population. but our population is over 300 million, not 270 million.

    and the united states is 3,528,513 ish square miles (after subtracting 7% for water just to give them the botd) 580,000 + 2,427,000 = 3,007,000 clearly they pulled that one out of their ass too.

    edit: also, who gives a shit who won more sq miles? i didnt realize farm land could vote. and is it really any surprise? mccain won alaska and texas.


    oh, and then there is this:

    snopes.com: The Fall of the Athenian Republic

    some asshat just swapped out gore for obama :rolleyes: its 2011, get some new material.
     
    #11 1kmb1, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
  12. Drifterwood

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    I think that they have their dates wrong. I wouldn't consider the US to have been on the path to greatness (liberty to abundance) until after your civil war. Right wing patriots frankly romanticise the position of the US at the time of the war of independence.
     
  13. TomCat84

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    There's some truth to this- but I think the Mexican-American War was more the point at which the country became known as a force to be reckoned with. The Civil War became the point at which the U.S. became strong enough that other powers would think twice (which they did) before interfering in an internal conflict and risking the enmity of the U.S. military.
     
  14. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    The Mexican-American war was all about manifest destiny and territory building. We had designs; we believed in them and we took them.

    Luckily, things seemed to turn out well enough and we've never had much territorial dispute, a la Europe, with regard to Mexico. Much less Canada.

    Our history in general is much less fraught than that of European countries, at the very lest by virtue of geographical isolation. But then again, our only adversaries were ill-equipped native Americans. Go figure.
     
  15. Drifterwood

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    Fair enough. I just prefer to talk about liberty after the abolition of slavery.
     
  16. D_Davy_Downspout

    D_Davy_Downspout Account Disabled

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    #16 D_Davy_Downspout, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
  17. B_lrgeggs

    B_lrgeggs New Member

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    Thanks for the snopes check on that. The US really isn't a true democracy...it's
    a republic
     
  18. vince

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    Exactly. Why worry? My young daughter says that's quite exciting to be alive in the time of the Apocalypse.
     
  19. hsarge

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    Democracy exists where the people believe it works to their benefit. The more that poverty, hunger, fear, and disenfranchisement occur, the more the people look for a 'the man on the white horse' to take charge and solve their problems. Dictatorship is spawned when the people perceive a problem that is greater than their freedom. That can be a military threat, an economic debacle, or a calamitous natural event.
     
  20. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    I'm not sure how my gullibility (or lack thereof) figures into this as I was responding to something she'd sent me on a my-opinion basis. Perhaps she is in that she didn't research the origin of the article but then, how many of any of us do that, particularly when something agrees with our beliefs. FWIW, she has one of her masters in library science and is completely computer literate so it's not like she couldn't have checked. More than I sometimes.

    But thanks for that find. You know where it's being forwarded, right now.
     
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