The end of democracy in America.

TomCat84

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The Mexican-American war was all about manifest destiny and territory building. We had designs; we believed in them and we took them.

Luckily, things seemed to turn out well enough and we've never had much territorial dispute, a la Europe, with regard to Mexico. Much less Canada.

Our history in general is much less fraught than that of European countries, at the very lest by virtue of geographical isolation. But then again, our only adversaries were ill-equipped native Americans. Go figure.

Interesting sidebar. The Whig Party (predecessor to the modern Republicans) was vehemently opposed to the war. Abraham Lincoln was a member of the Whigs, and voiced his opposition to said war. My, how the Republicans have changed.
 

Mensch1351

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Thanks for the snopes check on that. The US really isn't a true democracy...it's
a republic


It's both -- but it is also a Representative Democracy!!

That said --- I think the major crisis we are feeling in modern times (1980's to current) is the "trust" of the American people in both the people that represent them AND in the system itself. Our only hope when the trust factor plummets (or is so divisive as it seems to be now) is to change the system -- for example campaign contribution reform laws, solid election reforms --- making Congress live under Social Security & a reasonable pension program instead of their own feeling of "entitlement" etc. That is a lot more difficult when the people who have the power to actually change the system don't seem too keen on not acting in their OWN best interests! God -- just where are the visionaries and patriots of our time???
 
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JTalbain

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I'm not sure how my gullibility (or lack thereof) figures into this as I was responding to something she'd sent me on a my-opinion basis. Perhaps she is in that she didn't research the origin of the article but then, how many of any of us do that, particularly when something agrees with our beliefs. FWIW, she has one of her masters in library science and is completely computer literate so it's not like she couldn't have checked. More than I sometimes.

But thanks for that find. You know where it's being forwarded, right now.
Dear God this is so true. It highlights exactly what the Republican propaganda machine has done to solidify their base for the past few years. People want to believe they're on the right side, so tell them anything. ANYTHING. I remember almost putting my Mom's email on my blocked sender list when she forwarded me emails saying Obama was a Muslim, Kenyan immigrant, and another saying there was "proof" he "might be the Antichrist".
 

D_Percy_Prettywillie

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Dear God this is so true. It highlights exactly what the Republican propaganda machine has done to solidify their base for the past few years. People want to believe they're on the right side, so tell them anything. ANYTHING. I remember almost putting my Mom's email on my blocked sender list when she forwarded me emails saying Obama was a Muslim, Kenyan immigrant, and another saying there was "proof" he "might be the Antichrist".


I almost had to do the exact same thing only with my sister. So seduced was she by all the vitriol towards the President, she slowly convinced herself of some of the most baseless nonsense I've ever heard spouted about anybody. The e-mails she would forward me were written to appeal to the absolute lowest common denominator. It was the kind of drivel that couldn't possibly be true of any person seeking government office, let alone the Presidency, Republic or Democrat.



JSZ
 

B_Nick8

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Dear God this is so true. It highlights exactly what the Republican propaganda machine has done to solidify their base for the past few years. People want to believe they're on the right side, so tell them anything. ANYTHING.

I almost had to do the exact same thing only with my sister. So seduced was she by all the vitriol towards the President, she slowly convinced herself of some of the most baseless nonsense I've ever heard spouted about anybody. JSZ

I completely know what you mean. Here's out follow up:

Doesn't hurt you a bit to know what others are thinking. Even libs need to know the other side. And just because I send things to you doesn't mean they reflect my thinking.

Mom

I totally agree. And I know that. I give you more credit than to be a person who accepts internet things hook, line, and sinker. I guess my question is that in any individual "forward" I always wonder just how much of it does reflect your thinking because you usually send them without comment.

Love, P

If there's more, I'll keep you appraised. Apparently, you relate.
 

B_Nick8

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Dear God this is so true. It highlights exactly what the Republican propaganda machine has done to solidify their base for the past few years. People want to believe they're on the right side, so tell them anything. ANYTHING. I remember almost putting my Mom's email on my blocked sender list when she forwarded me emails saying Obama was a Muslim, Kenyan immigrant, and another saying there was "proof" he "might be the Antichrist".

Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm on about every liberal, Democratic e-mail list there is, but I do not now, and never did--even during the worst of the Bush years--get anything resembling the crap I'm forwarded from the "Republican viewpoint".
 

TomCat84

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Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm on about every liberal, Democratic e-mail list there is, but I do not now, and never did--even during the worst of the Bush years--get anything resembling the crap I'm forwarded from the "Republican viewpoint".

You're right on the money Nick. Sure, the Left had their wackjobs- some of the Pink Code ladies and 9/11 conspiracy theorists- but they were rightly treated as wackos. Here come the Teabaggers, and we had a major network acting as virtual Teabagger organizers, and Fox hosts seriously wondering whether the fist bump was innocent or a "terrorist fist jab." :confused:
 

B_starinvestor

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Folks can call it republican hyperbole or fear mongering or any other flowery liberal buzzword is the taste of the day.

But the fact remains that those eagerly slurping from the gov't teet will vote the same way every day. Why wouldn't they? And that contingency is growing exponentially.

See Government deficit and Entitlement spending for citation/source. Oh, and results of previous presidential election.

The essay is a little extreme, but pay attention to the melody moreso than the lyrics.
 

vince

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Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm on about every liberal, Democratic e-mail list there is, but I do not now, and never did--even during the worst of the Bush years--get anything resembling the crap I'm forwarded from the "Republican viewpoint".
There was no need Nick. All one had to do is read a newspaper or watch a TV and see with one's own eyes what they they were doing.

It wasn't necessary to make shit up. The realities of out of control spending and borrowing, invading the wrong country, human right violations, gutting of the Constitution and near economic meltdown, were horrible enough!
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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Folks can call it republican hyperbole or fear mongering or any other flowery liberal buzzword is the taste of the day.

But the fact remains that those eagerly slurping from the gov't teet will vote the same way every day. Why wouldn't they? And that contingency is growing exponentially.

See Government deficit and Entitlement spending for citation/source. Oh, and results of previous presidential election.

The essay is a little extreme, but pay attention to the melody moreso than the lyrics.

I assume you're talking about the entitlements in the defense industry and rich people benefiting from the tax cuts? Because that's where the deficit comes from. Military spending and the Bush/Obama tax cuts.

Also saying "see [my argument] for source" isn't really citing a source.
 

vince

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Folks can call it republican hyperbole or fear mongering or any other flowery liberal buzzword is the taste of the day.

But the fact remains that those eagerly slurping from the gov't teet will vote the same way every day. Why wouldn't they? And that contingency is growing exponentially.

See Government deficit and Entitlement spending for citation/source. Oh, and results of previous presidential election.

The essay is a little extreme, but pay attention to the melody moreso than the lyrics.
Those slurping at the teet of Rupert Murdoch and Co. are more likely to vote they way they are propagandized into.

And anyways, the military/industrial complex, predatory investment "bankers" (GAMBLERS), and corporations shipping your jobs (and the tax base) to Mexico and Asia for the last fifty years, have done more damage to your economy than some old folks collecting their SS (which they paid into btw), or single moms getting some food stamps.
 

B_RedDude

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Why is it that conservatives like this guy sound so whiny and pathetic, and speak as though they're so put-upon?

But the fact remains that those eagerly slurping from the gov't teet will vote the same way every day. Why wouldn't they? And that contingency is growing exponentially.
 

B_starinvestor

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Those slurping at the teet of Rupert Murdoch and Co. are more likely to vote they way they are propagandized into.

And anyways, the military/industrial complex, predatory investment "bankers" (GAMBLERS), and corporations shipping your jobs (and the tax base) to Mexico and Asia for the last fifty years, have done more damage to your economy than some old folks collecting their SS (which they paid into btw), or single moms getting some food stamps.


US tax receipts are 2.2 trillion. Entitlement spending is 2.2 trillion.

Let's cut all domestic spending, defense spending and let's stop paying interest on the national debt.

Perhaps we will then have a federal budget that is suitable to Vince.
 

davidjh7

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The fall of any country comes when the politicians become professionals, and stop doing the job as a service to their country, and use the country to service themselves. The more right wing side try to convince the people they are right, and thus hang on to and grow their power, by predominantly by appealing to emotions. The more left try to appeal to people's minds. Neither side really fixes problems---they usually exacerbate them because it is in their personal interests. Economically, the US is in big trouble. I can trace the history and whys easily enough---the problem is there is no real viable solution that doesn't involve great cuts in services (ALL services, military, entitlement, discretionary, infrastructure, education, etc.) AND HUGE tax increases for everybody, to the point that the majority of people's income and wealth will go to pay off the public debt. You can stop digging a hole and still be in a hole, so even if the government didn't spend a penny, we would still be in a huge hole. Other courntries are in more or less the same shape, unfortunately, and the all economies are tightly coupled to each other, unlike in the past. I see only two real courses of action happening: One, we do above, and sacrifice everything to get back to ground zero and start over, or two, we basically declare national bankruptcy, declare all debts and assets null and void, suffer through the incredible class war that would follow, and start over with the survivots. This may sound like drastic gloom and doom, but I have analyzed it from every angle I can, and always reach the same point. Rhetoric, emotional outbursts, the blame game, appealing to rage and predudice only work to help us ignore reality and think we are blameless. We all share the responsibility of where we are now, and all will suffer the consequences. So, feel free to continue souting the same old crap that all the talking heads on both sides have for centuries if it makes you feel better, or gives you comfort. Whatever helps you get through the end. :rolleyes:
 
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vince

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US tax receipts are 2.2 trillion. Entitlement spending is 2.2 trillion.

Let's cut all domestic spending, defense spending and let's stop paying interest on the national debt.

Perhaps we will then have a federal budget that is suitable to Vince.
Damn right. But you left out one thing. I'd raise your taxes until you squealed Star.


Oh, and I'd never let you skip on the debt or the interest. Keep paying suckers.


I think I'd ask Paul Martin to run the US Govt. finances for about five years. It would hurt like hell for awhile. After that you'd be in fine shape and would be thankful to me.
 

Calboner

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Edited to add: I overlooked the posts citing Snopes.com when I wrote this, so it's a bit redundant.
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul ,
Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the last
Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2
McCain: 2.1
That first line of "facts" doesn't even need to be compared to an external source to be recognized as nonsense. There are 50 US states plus the District of Columbia. If Obama won 19 of them and McCain 23, that leaves at least 8 states unaccounted for. Are we supposed to believe that one or more third-party candidates won 8 states?

As it happens, the actual tally is: Obama, 27 states plus DC (CA, CO, CT, DC, DE, FL, HI, IN, IA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, NV, NH, NJ, NM, NY, NC, OH, OR, RI, VT, VA, WA, WI); McCain, 23 (AL, AK, AZ, AR, GA, ID, KS, KY, LA, MS, MO, MT, NE (2 of 3 electoral districts), ND, OK, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, WV, WY).

Given that the first checkable claim is easily shown to be completely false, the rest of the claims don't have much credibility.

Added after writing the above: found at Factcheck.org, which quotes the same e-mail message:

Fact Check said:
First, Joseph Olson is a professor at Hamline (not Hemline) University School of Law in St. Paul, Minn. None of what appears in this e-mail was written by him. He has been denying authorship of this old hoax since earlier versions first cropped up after the 2000 election.
And further:

Fact Check said:
More important, the "unreported stats" listed in this e-mail are all wrong:

President-elect Barack Obama actually carried 28 states (and the District of Columbia), not 20 as claimed in the message. Sen. John McCain carried only 22 states, not 30.

The total area of states won by Obama is actually 1,483,702 square miles, significantly more than the 580,000 stated by the e-mail. McCain’s states have an area of 2,310,315 square miles, not the 2,427,000 claimed.

The population of counties carried by Obama is just under 183 million, not the 127 million claimed. McCain carried counties with a total population of just under 119 million, far fewer than claimed in this message.

The murder rate for counties carried by Obama was 6.56 per 100,000 inhabitants, less than half the rate claimed in the message. The rate for counties carried by McCain was 3.60 per 100,000, much higher than claimed in the message.
Hmm. I don't know how they get the count of 28 states plus DC for Obama. Nebraska had its 3 votes divided among 3 districts, of which 1 went to Obama and 2 to McCain. Not sure what that has to do with it.
 
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LittleButt

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I didn't read all the comments but the general assumption was that the facts are correct and the sky is falling. According to Snopes the facts are full of shit. This is race baiting at it's purest: put forth a set of racist lies (murder rate, really? the implication is that only murderers (blacks) voted for Obama) and everyone accepts it as fact. If you really want to know what will cause the downfall of America it is ignorance and a refusal to factcheck. No offense to the OP that is.

snopes.com: The Fall of the Athenian Republic
 

B_VinylBoy

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US tax receipts are 2.2 trillion. Entitlement spending is 2.2 trillion.

Let's cut all domestic spending, defense spending and let's stop paying interest on the national debt.

Perhaps we will then have a federal budget that is suitable to Vince.

Ironically, if our current "do nothing" Congress continued to do nothing and just raised the debt ceiling without any additional cuts or revenue hikes, the deficit would be reduced to literally nothing in ten years. That's because the Bush Tax Cuts would expire in 2012 and the rest of the provisions of the Healthcare Law would be enacted over the next several years.

So do we really need to cut "entitlement spending" as much as so many conservative ideologists claim?
 
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^ 'Entitlement spending'... just the word 'entitlement' sends shivers of contempt through every Conservatives bones. Entitlements = big socialist government. They will work tirelessly to end them all even if it means taking down the government to do it.
"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."
-Grover Norquist​