The eventual erasing of American Nationalism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Is American Nationalism - slowly, methodically - becoming quaint? Obsolete? A thing of the past?

    The current AIG bailout has shown us that the american economy collapses when "too big to fail" international firms like AIG are allowed to collapse. It's almost as if (economically speaking) there are no national borders anymore when it comes to large corporations and financial institutions.


    Is this right?: We are all americans in the U.S., but we are irrevocably now a part of a bigger whole that defies ideology or politics. America IS Europe. Europe and America ARE East Asia. You cannot talk about the health of the american economy without considering the health of the global economy.

    What's responsible for dragging the U.S. kicking and screaming into partnership with Europe and Asia and even communistic and authoritarian governements? Is it american Liberalism? Creeping socialism? Radical pot-smoking hippies from the '60's?.... No, no! It's Wal-Mart and Coca-Cola and ExxonMobil and AIG and Pfizer.

    --------------------


    New Headline:


    In essay, Obama seeks global economic help

    The president's message is printed in 31 publications worldwide


    WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama pressed global leaders in a written message Tuesday to take "bold, comprehensive and coordinated" steps against the debilitating recession. Obama set out the U.S. position in advance of next month's meeting of the Group of 20 largest economies in an essay that the White House said was printed in 31 publications worldwide. In it, the president exhorted leaders to join together in reversing the global downturn. "For the first time in a generation, the global economy is contracting and trade is shrinking," Obama wrote.


    He said the U.S. government understands that "the American economy is inextricably linked to the global economy. There is no line between action that restores growth within our borders and action that supports it beyond." The Group of 20 major economies meets April 2 in London to discuss the global crisis, and there have been indications that the United States is at odds with some countries in Europe that want to focus more on financial regulation than on vast government spending to stimulate their economies.
     
  2. pym

    pym New Member

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    I'd really like to answer this question, but before i do, What is your definition of "American Nationalism"?
     
  3. lucky8

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    Bush was not lying about the New World Order. NAFTA, the UN, NATO, WTO are all international organiztions aimed at breaking down trade and political borders in an effort to stimulate international trade. Add to that the new North American passports that will be issued in 2010, the development of the Euro, privitazed central banks in every major economy, it wouldn't be hard for the system to take advantage of itself. Even China, laughingly, recently proposed a global currency...globalization is happening on a much steeper scale than anyone would like to admit. Someday in coming years (not anytime in my lifetime or even anytime remotely soon) we will be a global society rather than national/international society. It will happen someday, what we are witnessing now, IMO, is the beginning of this extremely long-term process towards global unification

    Even W said many times that he was trying to unite the entire western hemisphere...
     
    #3 lucky8, Mar 24, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2009
  4. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

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    new world order

    (lucky8 beat me to it, and a smart lad he is.)
     
  5. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Start with a definition from wikipedia?

    American Nationalism: "The society of the United States in spite of being multi-ethnic and multi-cultural still has a sense of national identity and history; those who live in or are from the United States refer to an 'American people', and patriotism is prominent in public life"

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    A sort of Global Second Law of Thermodynamics seems to be at work. A global economy is the beginning of global cultural equilibrium. We all drink Coke and drive Toyotas and buy "Made in China" and watch Hollywood action flicks as it is. The american court system routinely looks to european courts, world courts, for guidance even in deciding private morality cases. The american empire under GWB wished to impose democracy on middle-eastern nations because "all people yearn to be free". Hundreds of billions in american taxpayer money goes to AIG, who, in turn, pay off foreign banks with our american cash. McDonald's, GlaxoSmithKline, the Blackstone Group, multi-nationalism, ONE WORLD BANK.


    Entropy: (in cosmology) a hypothetical tendency for the universe to attain a state of maximum homogeneity in which all matter is at a uniform temperature.


    Get the feeling that the eventual (general) breaking down of individual cultures and languages and even religions - not to mention borders - is inevitable? Perhaps not in our lifetimes. But we can all feel the magnetic pull in this direction. One global economy. A common currency seems inevitable. Don't know if this is a good or bad thing.
     
    #5 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Mar 24, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2009
  6. Pitbull

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    American Nationalism is being destroyed and not by corporations.
    Doing business on a global scale should not have an effect on our national sense of self, culture and pride.

    It is being destroyed from within by people who are foolishly trying to establish some sort of utopia where everyone is totally equal. To achieve that they try to quash a pride which is rooted in feeling that the United States of America is better than other places.
    It is not business that is destroying American Nationalism but those who use the legal and educational system to undermine our whole society.
    I don't believe in a grand conspiracy but people that place their agenda first above the well being of our society and country as a whole.

    They sadly will probably succeed and instead of the global utopia we will have a world where Islamic religious fanaticism battles out China with a society that lacks tolerance and has ambition and little ethnic diversity.
     
  7. AllHazzardi

    AllHazzardi Member

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    A Utopia does not crush pride, and a Utopia does not make everyone equal, but rather allows everyone to be considered equal unless proven otherwise. If anything, I think that nationalism, that pride, could simply use a dose of humility. People shouldn't think themselves better because of where they live, but because of what they do. American Nationalism isn't being destroyed; it died a long time ago. It died when companies started focusing on profit rather than quality. It died when people became more concerned with a dollar than a dark day without fun and enjoyment. It died when the majority of people and businesses let it die. But nothing is lost, and death doesn't mean the end. I think given the acts of kindness going on amidst this situation, that instead of being destroyed, it will be reborn in a transfigured form. Not a sense of pride based on location or social status, but a sense of pride from doing what Americans have done since the birth of the country; work hard and help those who need it. The principles of our country are Freedom, Equality, and the pursuit of happiness, they left the center stage for a time, but I think amidst what is going on today and in the near future, there is a lesson to be learned about their value that only their absence could bring forth to learn. If the day comes when American Nationalism truly lays to rest, I hope it would just be because of replacement by human spirit and the desire to prosper as a whole rather than as individual parts, and for no other reason than that.

    Some would call me idealistic, some would label me, denounce the idea, call names, or kick dirt around. In the end, only one label matters to me, and that label will always be sufficient. I am a human, one individual instance of the species Homo Sapiens. That is all I am, all I ever will be, and all I need to be. I'm looking forward to the coming years. This world we have created through conflict, competition, and greed is ripe for a change, and the desire to come together as one is growing. Not because of politics, not because of government, not because of trade, but simply because the people are starting to find the value in it, some just take longer than others.
     
  8. Phil Ayesho

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    This is actually a good question.

    But the answer is easy.
    What is dragging us into the world economy are our OWN theories of free markets and capitalism.

    The US DEPENDED for 40 years on exporting its goods to Europe and Asia- the more open their markets, the more we made...

    Over the past 20 or 30 years we have transitioned from depending on what we can export, to depending on what we must import.

    With a fairly stagnant population that is more or less already affluent, For the US there CAN BE NO GROWTH without foreign markets and foreign sources.

    SO we can pick... be the active proponent of globalization... and keep capitalism paying for the next 50 years...

    Or become insular... in which case capitalism can no longer sustain our domestic economy.


    Oh- and another thing... the very Concept of American Nationalism is vaguely fascist.

    We gotta stop waving big foam fingers saying we're number one and think about the fact that in healthcare, infant mortality, longevity, affluence, and even freedom... we are no longer number one.
     
    #8 Phil Ayesho, Mar 25, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2009
  9. Bbucko

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    Patriotism and Nationalism are different concepts. I am a patriot but loathe nationalism.
     
  10. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    well, well! WT gets it!

    bravo!
     
    #10 B_Nick4444, Mar 25, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2009
  11. D_Fiona_Farvel

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    I think the contemporary notion of nationalism has been shaped by WW2 and the Cold War, but that 50-year period is not representative of the whole U.S. experience with nationalism (say 1776, 1788, or even 1789 and on).

    Therefore, while it is possible "nationalism" is being threatened - what is more likely, is what some believe to be unique or traditional about U.S. culture is no longer the standard. This does not mean “nationalism” in the U.S. is waning, it just mean whatever your notion of nationalism is has evolved away from the now traditional model – which is, to my mind, what the founders envisioned.

    Samuel Huntington discusses this topic in both The Hispanic Challenge and Clash of Civilizations, and I believe he states that the U.S. will continue, but it may be unfamiliar to those that are satisfied with the current model.
     
  12. B_Hung Jon

    B_Hung Jon New Member

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    I think the idea that America is special and unique is a dying idea. It must be extremely difficult for people who identify themselves as different and/or better than people in other countries to see this happening. The ideas of the Enlightenment were not just our ideas. Originally they were French. We need to be world citizens not just Americans.
     
  13. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    both Wiltom & PitBull have the nail on the head ...
     
  14. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    Exactly American exceptionalism.
    I agree, for the most part, although, I am a proponent of limited cosmopolitanism.
     
  15. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    I have never known Will not to do so and rarely Pitbull.

    But for you to acknowledge it and more to the point, for me to find myself in agreement with you about absolutely anything...well, I'm completely flabbergasted. It's a whole new day.
     
  16. Bbucko

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    Even a broken clock is right twice a day :wink:
     
  17. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    Edit: It's a whole new twice a day.
     
  18. lokican

    lokican Member

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    I 100% disagree about the eventual erasing of American Nationalism, whats happening is that unlike before America is now in a position where you can't do it alone anymore be it the economy or even wars. George Bush dismissed the UN when he went to Iraq, only to come back later to ask for help. The world is becoming more and more connected and what affects one nation affects others more so than ever.

    However nationalism will never disappear, look at Europe while they have a common currency and a semi-European government, their is still wide spread nationalism. Germans consider themselves Germans, not just Europeans, Italians, French, Greeks etc still have much pride in their countries origins.

    I was on vacation in the US with a French guy and we had to laugh as we looked down a street and almost every house had an American flag on it's porch, and this was pre-9/11. He mentioned you would never see this in France and in Canada were are pretty proud of out nation as well, but don't usually display it like the level the US does.
     
  19. Drifterwood

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    To my mind there is a clear line between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism is as dirty a word in Europe as Socialism seems to be to most USers.

    Nationalists tend to think that they are the best. Patriots simply have a devotion to their country and culture. There is nothing wrong with the latter and it does not preclude you from seeing your country's faults.

    It is this issue of seeing fault that is central to US nationalism IMO. US nationalists foam when non USers criticise US policy or culture and do not seem to understand that the patriots who see fault, do so with a desire to see their country better.

    From my personal observation the US is a very dualist society. Things are seen as right or wrong, even the political system only has two choices. This leads nationalists to see the world, their world, in black and white terms, sometimes literally.

    US nationalists are happy to be isolated, because frankly the rest of the world sucks, but Pres OB has or is changing that, certainly as a cultural message to the rest of the world.

    Will the US embrace his inclusive global world view? I hope so.
     
  20. midlifebear

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    I only hope the end result is no one will be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in any public school ever again. "One nation [under God]" or no. That's a good three minutes wasted that could be used to settle a class down for getting ready to learn.
     
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