The fall of Christianity in America

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Let me start this with a disclaimer *I am a non-practicing Catholic*

America has become a country obsessed with political correctness, "tolerance" (theres a reason I put quotations around that, I'll get into it later) and the complete and utter acceptance, or appearance of acceptance of all beliefs. You see it every day in the media..case in point: "African-American" (which is a misnomer because not all blacks are African) "resistance fighters" (mujahadeen baathist terrorists)..but where you see it the most is with regards to religion.

The media, and especially Hollywood has made every attempt to push Christianity under the rug. Nativity scenes are deemed offensive, department store workers have to worry about being fired for saying Merry Christmas, cheap shots taken by Hollywood producers in movies, actors speaking out against Christianity, you can't pray before a game if you're a high school football player. the 10 commandments removed from public view...the list goes on and on.

Yet at the same time, menorahs are fine to display, schools cannot force children to remove religious headwear (but crosses around the neck have been banned at some schools), you can say Happy Kwanzaa to anyone, and Scientologists can sue you for speaking out against their religion.

I sense a double standard.

How can you honestly jusify the all out attack of one religion, but then promote tolerance, and acceptance of all religions? It is completely hypocritical. Any sort of Christian display is removed in a public setting. The separation of church and state issue has been pused to incredible extremes. Children are being suspended for reciting a prayer in class (alone) but a child who practices Islam is given a special place to pray in school (in order to fulfill the five separate times of prayer dictated by the Koran). My gripe is this, nannyism and Political Correctness has degenerated into double standards of behavior.

It's not right.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Bump, rather than bitch can we have an intelligent discussion devoid of fleshpiles please?

 

[B_Danceswithlamps]

I agree completely.

But here is my disclaimer: I am a PRACTICING Catholic. And damn proud of it.
The government wants to show tolerence, but is not showing tolerence for Christianiy, because it is widely used. You are very wise to notice this!

Oh, and by the way: merry christmas is not polite. (remember, i'm a christian) When created, merry had a different meaning. It meant to drink, eat, and have a good time with your *buddies*. Not that this is bad, but not quite what we think of, when we think of Christmas.

AND I STILL WEAR A CROSS AROUND MY NECK. And it ain't coming off.

Me

 

[jda365]

Interesting post. I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I have often thought about this very issue and came to the same conclusion. I think either everyone and their beliefs should be publicly recognized, or no one's. I hate double standards. But I would like to point out that Kwanzaa is not actually a religious observance, but just a cultural one. It's purpose is to give African Americans a time to learn about reflect on their culture and it's place/significance in society as a whole. Therefore it in itself is a secular idea/event and not a religious one. OK, that's all. :smile:

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

I agree completely.

But here is my disclaimer: I am a PRACTICING Catholic. And damn proud of it.
The government wants to show tolerence, but is not showing tolerence for Christianiy, because it is widely used. You are very wise to notice this!

Oh, and by the way: merry christmas is not polite. (remember, i'm a christian) When created, merry had a different meaning. It meant to drink, eat, and have a good time with your *buddies*. Not that this is bad, but not quite what we think of, when we think of Christmas.

AND I STILL WEAR A CROSS AROUND MY NECK. And it ain't coming off.

Me

I just don't understand how our supreme court can rule that it is fine to allow Muslim children to pray, but not Christian. It's unjust, bigoted and completely hypocritical.

 

[Shelby]

I sense a double standard.


It's not right.

I'm with you LINittanyLion. Splendid observation. So what are we gonna do about it? How do we fight PC without getting our asses handed to us in our hats? Figure that out and rule the world.

 

[jeff black]

I just don't understand how our supreme court can rule that it is fine to allow Muslim children to pray, but not Christian. It's unjust, bigoted and completely hypocdirical.

Hasn't that always been the way Lion? The greatest good for the greatest number, and fuck those that can't conform?

It is completely hypocritical. Any sort of Christian display is removed in a public setting. The separation of church and state issue has been pused to incredible extremes. Children are being suspended for reciting a prayer in class (alone) but a child who practices Islam is given a special place to pray in school (in order to fulfill the five separate times of prayer dictated by the Koran). My gripe is this, nannyism and Political Correctness has degenerated into double standards of behavior

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that America has become more cultural, introducing new religions on a regular basis to people that were majority Christian. Majorities are expected to have tolerance for a minority. They are trying to be supportive as apposed to making people conform. Now, I am all for people being open-minded and trying new things if it is something they need to do, but as you clearly stated Lion, there are double standards all over the place. I dont' know how they can be fixed either.
Sorry dude, but I really like the idea of this thread. :smile:

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

I'm with you LINittanyLion. Splendid observation. So what are we gonna do about it? How do we fight PC without getting our asses handed to us in our hats? Figure that out and rule the world.

Honestly, I think a lot of this has to do with censorship of anything deemed offensive, and minority rights. While it is true that a democray must protect the rights of the minority population, that does not mean you squash and attack the principles of the majority to do so. Through censorship however, in effect we are squashing majority rights to win favor with minorities. Those willing to accept Christianity as the majority (Reagan, Bush Jr.) aso tend to win a lot of votes. At the same time, it is these people whom the media seek and attempt to destroy, and it is these pepole who have their names spat on by Hollywood.

Hardly a coincidence.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Real Christianity has never lost favor Lion. It's this nasty subversive "fundie" kind we homos take exception to. And that brand will never be "brushed under the rug" by me.. it'll be exposed for the bigoted subversive sect it is.

And I have no problem being 'Politically Correct' to err on the side of fairness. I've never required anyone to call me a "European American" but then my ancestors weren't carted over here in rows in the bottom of slave galleys either so I have no need to distinguish myself from other Americans.

However, "Italian-American", "Polish-American", Irish-American", seems (at this late date) a bit absurd to me.

By the way I'm a practicing Episcopalian. The congregation where I attend church is loaded with Christians who do not feel slighted by Hollywood or the general public I'm quite sure.

If I were NOT Christian - by socialization anyway - I'd certainly think this culture of ours has one huge bias toward that particular faith. I'm sure of it. Nah... them there "Christians" are doing just dandy, generally.

At the same time, it is these people whom the media seek and attempt to destroy, and it is these pepole who have hteir names spat on by Hollywood.

I have the name of an anti-Hollywood website you may enjoy joining if you want a referral.

 

[D_Dick_Dock_Doe]

With all do respect (and I was raised Catholic), I have to disagree with you. Christians are by no means being pushed into marginalization.
Many conservative Christians argue that they are being discriminated against and persecuted in America. Why? Basically, because they have lost their once-dominant position in American politics, culture, and law. They can't stand being treated like adherents of every other religion and this, in turn, amounts to persecution in their minds.


In the April/May 2005 issue of Free Inquiry, Tom Flynn writes in his article “Discrimination Against Christians? Oh Please...”:

Majority Christians accurately foresee that their present-day privileges may one day go the way of teacher-led Bible reading. Just as Southern whites did after the Civil War, majority Christians are reacting in ways that are, well, reactionary. ...

Attacks on teaching evolution and efforts to reinstate school prayer increasingly portray majority Christians as victims. And, of course, there was last year’s eagerness to turn back the clock on “Happy Holidays.” Taken together, these initiatives could move the country back toward de facto discrimination against both the nonreligious and all those who are religious but not Christian.

Clearly, majority Christians are getting a lot of mileage out of their claims of discrimination. So it’s time to ask some blunt questions. Are majority Christians being discriminated against? No. Are they being treated unfairly? No. Is anyone trying to take their rights away from them? No. But are majority Christians the targets of a reform movement that seeks to take privileges away from them? Emphatically, yes. Many of those privileges are illicit, and their removal will help to bring about a more just and equitable society.

Like Southern whites in the Jim Crow years, today’s Christian Americans have been made to give up only some of the illicit privileges they accumulated in the past. The unfairness of the privileges they retain grows more odious with time as the nation becomes more religiously diverse. “Judeo-Christian” practices that seemed acceptable when Christians and Jews dominated debates over religion in public life are transparently unacceptable today, when Christians and Jews share the nation with atheists, agnostics, secular humanists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, neopagans, and so on.​

This concept of “religious privilege” is very important, I think. Use of the word “privilege” emphasizes the fact that Christianity and Christians have gained from social and legal benefits that they were never really entitled to. Because they persisted for so long, though, Christians seem to have gotten the idea that they deserved them — and now that they are disappearing, the impression exists that vital rights are being lost.


If we were dealing with actual rights, like the right to speech, then claims about discrimination and persecution would be justified. As it is, though, the truth is that Christians are losing privileges — they are losing the ways in which they have been treated better than everyone else. Because of this, they are not actually being discriminated against — but the discrimination against others is ending. It’s not unlike how the elimination of “white privilege” was perceived by whites during the Civil Rights era.



Particularly ironic about this is that privileges for religion have not entirely ended — religion in general continues to enjoy a relatively privileged place in society. What’s ending are privileges for Christianity in particular. Thus complaints about “attacks” on religion are really complaints about “attacks” on Christianity, in which the “attacks” are really policies designed to place Christianity on the same (otherwise privileged) level as all other religions.


Religious privilege — and in particular Christian privilege — is one of the few traditional privileges that continues to be openly defended in modern society. Other forms of privilege, like white privilege and male privilege, may continue to exist but it’s regarded as impolite to actually argue in defense of them anymore. Perhaps one day religious privilege will go the way that white privilege and male privilege are going, but it won’t happen without conservative Christians doing a lot more whining first.

Now I would never tell someone s/he couldn't say Merry Christmas. But let's face it - we are living in a world of globalization. As we continue to break down borders, those of us who are in privileged spaces because of those borders will naturally argue against breaking them down.

 

[ceg1526]

Maybe it's time for Christianity to fall. After all, my religion (which produced the Crusades, the Inquisition, Northern Ireland, 30- and 100-years Wars, etc.) hasn't done too well the last couple of centuries. Maybe it's Buddism's or Hinduism's turn.

And as long as there's any form of arithmatic, there will be prayer in the classroom.

Take care

Ceg

 

[B_Stronzo]

Maybe it's time for Christianity to fall. After all, my religion (which produced the Crusades, the Inquisition, Northern Ireland, 30- and 100-years Wars, etc.) hasn't done too well the last couple of centuries. Maybe it's Buddism's or Hinduism's turn.

And as long as there's any form of arithmatic, there will be prayer in the classroom.

Take care

Ceg

Well hello and welcome to the thread CEG!:smile: Cool observational skills.

 

[rob_just_rob]

The media, and especially Hollywood has made every attempt to push Christianity under the rug. Nativity scenes are deemed offensive, department store workers have to worry about being fired for saying Merry Christmas, cheap shots taken by Hollywood producers in movies, actors speaking out against Christianity, you can't pray before a game if you're a high school football player. the 10 commandments removed from public view...the list goes on and on.

It's not right.

I agree, it's not right. All religions should be swept under the rug. There seems to be nothing wrong with saying "bless you" after someone sneezes, or "god damnit" when you can't send a message from Outlook due to the mailbox being full, but someone could be offended. Among friends, the fear of offense drops away, but Western culture is really about the idolatry of litigation as part of the broader worship of money, so appeasing the specter of litigation must take precedence when among the faithful. And you want to keep your potential customers unoffended, of course.

Another interpretation of the so-called fall of christianity (and it couldn't happen to a nicer religion) is that christianity has been the dominant religion in western cultures for a long, long time. Consequently, one could argue that the coercive or oppressive effect of multiple "bless you's" and "god damnit's" to non-christians is substantially greater than the coercive or oppressive effect of the less-frequent menorah sightings, golden calves, and exclamations of "Ford in His Flivver!" are to christians.

 

[Dr Rock]

ahhh stick it up your asses. christianity has fucked up the western world for nearly 2,000 years; time to give some other dipshits a chance. or better still, nobody.

The separation of church and state issue has been pused to incredible extremes.

umm, that's a direct contradiction in terms. seperation of church and state is not a matter of degrees - it's either enforced or it isn't. clue time: IT ISN'T.

Many conservative Christians argue that they are being discriminated against and persecuted in America. Why? Basically, because they have lost their once-dominant position in American politics, culture, and law.

oops, check again? not sure which america you're living in there chief - the one i'm familiar with is currently overrun with batshit bible-bangers.

 

[jakeatolla]

I just don't understand how our supreme court can rule that it is fine to allow Muslim children to pray, but not Christian. It's unjust, bigoted and completely hypocritical.

I couldn't agree with you more. A friend is a highschool teacher in toronto,and was in an area with a lot of Somali immigrants. The school he taught at was a public school, meaning no christianity allowed. But the Somali students who were all
muslim, were allowed to hold prayer meetings in the school, and guess what ?
They Did not let female Somali students to attend . And the real kicker is that
the Principal of this particular school was a Jewish woman. You would think that she would'nt be so PC, but then again ....

 

[B_Stronzo]

Dr. Rock.... dr. rock....

dammit that's what I meant to say but the fucking words just got in the way

"amen" brotha!

 

[ceg1526]

Good post Giozam. Equating Christian privilege to white and male privilege puts it in a very understandable light.

Take care

Ceg

 

[D_Elijah_MorganWood]

Until the age of 12 I lived and went to school in Hawaii. We were a melting pot of religion, race and culture. Rather that use it as a weapon, we've used it to celebrate our diversity. Rather than condemnation, there was (and still is) a curiosity regarding other cultures. We celebrate holidays here unknown to most of you. We have an amazing amount of Buddhists who think nothing of conducting business on Christmas day. When I moved to the mainland at the age of 12, the "prayer in school" controversy mystified me. We never had prayer in school or any resemblance thereof, nor was it ever an issue. Religion was practiced in people's homes and places of worship. When I got to the mainland, I encountered a wall of rednecks trying to ram their religion down my throat. My father is a non-practicing Catholic, my mother an non-practicing Protestant. I consider myself spiritual. Having lived in two communes growing up, my religious influences were diverse, to say the least. Now I was asked to pray in school. I felt like we'd moved to the dark ages.

Regarding equality, we should all keep practicing religion out of the schools except for religion based campuses. As for holiday customs, they are interesting and colorful and can't help but overlap into religious beliefs. It would be wonderful if everyone would just put their lawyers away and enjoy life. At risk of 1. using a cheesy example and 2. getting a stupid song stuck in your head, I defer to the "It's a Small World" ride at Disneyland. We need to stop trying to make others over in our own image. It doesn't play well and besides...it's fucking boring. Diversity should be celebrated, not quashed at it's first sign.

 

[ceg1526]

Sorc: I grew up opposite of you, a minority in a Theocracy. I learned the way of the majority (i.e., don't schedule a basketball game on Family Home Evening if you need your center to show up), but they never learned about my ways (i.e., what are those ashes on your forehead?). But now living in a very diverse megalopolis (Home of the Kosher Burrito), it's hard to learn anyone's ways. I just try to get along.

Take care,

Ceg

 

[Shelby]

ahhh stick it up your asses.

I hate playing the sycophant, but once again, Rock rocks.

I still think that at some level those with core beliefs (not fundie shit) are more on track than those with none. I guess what I'm saying is that moral relativism is cowardly.