The fall of Christianity in America

Chuck64

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dikkiedik said:
How is it possible that after many generations of Americans have forgotten why their grand-grand-grandparents came to the United States?
That's the million-dollar question. It could have something to do with society's ADD. They latch on to anyone who keeps them interested and eventually believe every word they say. What's the best way to keep someone interested? Start a conflict with people who are different - gays, muslims, pro-lifers, free-thinkers, etc. - and any organization who agrees with (or at least tolerates) them like many of the fortune 500 corporations, colleges, etc.
 

Lex

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I just wanted to add that this is one of the more fascinating threads to adorn this section in quite some time. I am enjoying everyone's perspective on an, admittedly, challenging and potentiallty emotional subject.

Good show.
 

mnrocky

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Religion is the reason we have a lot of the problems in the world. We can't all expect to have a god who created the universe you know. Its not logical.
If the universe truly was conceived by one entity then we have to all recognize that entity or just come to terms that its evolution.
How many wars have been fuleled by religion? How many more will be?
Religions are formed to keep people in check, to behave a certain way, so they can be controlled by whomever is controlling the religion. (ex. the pope)
Religion also comforts those who for some reason can't accept the chance that there is nothing beyond this life. We need to look at the world with our own eyes, and be responsible for our own actions.
Just my thoughts.
 

Chuck64

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I think "Hitchhiker's" sums up the whole problem pretty well:

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
 

B_Stronzo

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dikkiedik said:
I’m living in Europe, The Netherlands, and as a Dutchman I understand most of what all of you have written, but my English isn’t that good that I can reply. What keeps coming in my mind is this. For ages people from Europe went to the other side of the Atlantic because they wanted freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc. Too many wars in Europe were based on religious differences, one religion overruling the other, the power of the catholic church, the power of catholic or protestant royalty. Of coarse many went also because of the adventure and the possibilities to get wealthy or at least to find a life less poor.
How is it possible that after many generations of Americans have forgotten why their grand-grand-grandparents came to the United States?












First off welcome Dutch friend.

In the earliest settlement of the Colonies I'd say you're fairly on target. Our parochial view of religion would confound anyone who doesn't view the entire picture as somehow sad and intolerant.

However, not all came to escape religious persecution. Roughly half the Mayflower Pilgrims were Anabatists. The rest (like Standish) hadn't any particularly strong religious conviction. There's a pretty good book to read on the topic called Saints and Strangers that gives the breakdown.

Further, the greatest immigration to these shores occurred during and post the Potato Famine of the 1840s in Ireland. That was an economic manifestation as was the subsequent one of the Italians in the early part of the 20th century.

As a Bostonian I have seen firsthand what the heavy hand of the Irish version of the Roman Catholic Church has done to many aspects of social life. Remember during the immense immigration of the Irish to this area from 1840 on the church became the refuge for these individuals. It was as much a political and social refuge as it was a religious one. These peoples just took their faith with them to these shores.

I spoke recently with a fellow who was working for me who is here for a year from Dublin. He's simply astounded at how "devout" and "small minded" he finds his American counterparts in matters of religious fervor. Also- if you'd been witness to the scandal with that particular religion and the rolling of heads during the outing of the pedophile priests you'd see how deeply rooted the nearly impenetrable phenomenon of the R.C. Church has been all these years. Only with the resignation of Cardinal Law and his removal to Rome has the Roman Catholic church had to own up to the fact that it's been exempt much too long to the rules and regulations that govern the conduct of all the rest of us other Americans.

I envy the Dutch in so many ways.. may I add.

You folks just seem to have catapulted yourselves evolutionarily into a more advanced state of reason. I can easily understand your bewilderment.
 

GoneA

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Quite unsurprisingly, this thread has called to the forefront many ‘issues’ which have permeated America – and other nations, too – for quite some time. These are issues of: the majority overshadowing the minority; conversely, the uprising of the minority in ostensibly successful attempts of thwarting the majority, the marginalization of both categorizes and, ultimately, that which is right and that which is wrong.
In the way of religion, I am of the opinion that the practitioners should be free to practice it within the confines of their own life. That is to say, their particular way of life should not be forced upon anyone else – in any way. No, I am not an advocate for the marginalization of any one religion as, quite obviously that only creates a dichotomous wall between to believers of one thing and the believers of something else. However, I am not so naïve as to think that the freedom of religion helps to obliterate this “dichotomous wall”, in fact, in seems to work to the opposite effect. To own the truth, as long as there is religion there will be evangelist, and as long as they evangelize – each to his own faith - people will incessantly be at one another’s throats.
The initial poster acquainted us with the dismal reality of the suppression of Christianity; in fact, to cite him directly: “The separation of church and state issue has been pushed to incredible extremes.” While I tend to agree with Dr Rock’s assertion that the separation of church and state cannot be determined by or through varying degrees – either they’re separate or they are not, there is something to be said of the current state of affairs. I maintain the idea that Christianity should not be suppressed; children should not be forced to remove crosses for about their necks, they should not be suspended for reciting Christian prays, or subject to any other overt or covert forms of unfair suppression. True to form, I maintain this idea for any and all religions. I’m for the separation of church and state, but this is hardly the case; yet, this alludes to the actuality of politicians using religion as a means to gain money, influence and, at last, power. Our government is most certainly in a bad way.
LongPhatDong cast a very depressing light on cultural and ethnic marginalization. I’ve expressed my sentiments concerning this before and will again: it’s quite pathetic. Although we’ve come a rather long way for the days of ethnic marginalization, it still remains an ominous, pervasive and powerful force within American – and other nations – even if, in some areas anyway, it exists only within people’s minds. That is to say, racism that is not outwardly displayed, but kept behind closed doors; while some may say this is better than an open display, I should like for it to be eradicated completely. Alas, I’ve resolved within myself that this is wishful thinking and wholly impossible.
This all reminds me of a quote once cited by William O. Douglas: As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
 

Irish

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LINittanyLion said:
How can you honestly jusify the all out attack of one religion, but then promote tolerance, and acceptance of all religions?
A wonderful point. I think we should attack ALL religions and be done with it.
 

Freddie53

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This is a facinating thread. A lot of truth about the faults of Christianity have been mentioned. I am a practicing Christian.

But the question of the thread was this:

Scene: Fifth grade classroom

Time: Just before lunch

Action: Some Muslims are in a corner praying their prayers at the prescribed time.

Some Christian children decide to pray. The teacher tells them no, Christians can't pray only Muslims can.

This above scene is what the thread started out with. No matter how awful some people have been who considered themselves Christians, I can't see where on would say that Islam has a better track record as a religion.

The issue is not to rate a religion as to how many people believe it or what the state or a group of people think about it. The question is are we going to allow freedom for all to worship, wear symbols of their religion etc or are we going to pick which religions can waar symbols and say prayers at school and which religions can't.

There is no way under the US Consitution that a person contitutionally can be forced to wear or engage in a religious activity and there is no way the government can interfere with students practicing their religion initiated by the students, not he school authorities, such as reciting prayers on their own and wearing symbols of their religion.

I don't see how anyone could disagree with the above statements.

And for the record, I dispise "fundie" religions whether they be Christian, Muslim, Budhist or any other religion. I just don't like fundies. But they do have a right to practice their religion as much as anyone else does.
 

solong

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RideRocket said:
That's exactly right, and it applies to other religions as well. Look at Islam and see how it's being hijacked by extremists bent on subjugating everyone to Islamic law. quote]

Good point, Ride Rocket. But the Islam extremists take their religion to the far 'right" of insane. They are murderers, Whereas American Churchianity goes so far liberal left with their belief that the only thing they can claim today is, "Yes, we believe there's a god," and that's where all similarity ends.

So while Islam is ramping up, Christianity is dropping out. While Islam has nutcakes killing their own people for "compromising with infidels," modern Churchianity could care less if the ten commandments would get voted down, or the New Testament, or Christ, or anything else-- just as long as their money funnel stays full. So one extreme is a religious extreme, and the other is a materialistic compromise-- not a religious extreme.
 

Chuck64

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Solong... I don't think anyone is looking for a compromise (which implies that both sides are giving up something).

We're just looking for two things:
#1 Don't deny our right to a peaceful existence as equals.
#2 Don't force your beliefs on us (either through hate-based evangelism or legislation)
 

jeff black

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Chuck64 said:
Solong... I don't think anyone is looking for a compromise (which implies that both sides are giving up something).

We're just looking for two things:
#1 Don't deny our right to a peaceful exist as equals.
#2 Don't force your beliefs on us (either through hate-based evangelism or legislation)

Well said Chuck. As long as your beliefs don't interfere or condem my beliefs, than everything should be ok.
 

Dr Rock

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Freddie53 said:
No matter how awful some people have been who considered themselves Christians, I can't see where on would say that Islam has a better track record as a religion.
well, if we're talking history, islam has the advantage purely because christianity has been around for 600 years longer. :tongue:

I just don't like fundies. But they do have a right to practice their religion as much as anyone else does.
no they don't. to a fundamentalist, practising their religion MEANS shoving it down everyone else's throats - that's what defines fundamentalism ... as the name suggests. they don't have the right to inflict their demented worldview on others, any more than i have the right to go around shoving broken bottles into people's faces just because they're ugly.
 

Chuck64

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Dr Rock said:
They don't have the right to inflict their demented worldview on others, any more than i have the right to go around shoving broken bottles into people's faces just because they're ugly.
We're in a sad state when the political majority (or at least, the most vocal minority) can't practice as much restraint as Dr. Rock.
 

madame_zora

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Dr Rock said:
well, if we're talking history, islam has the advantage purely because christianity has been around for 600 years longer. :tongue:


no they don't. to a fundamentalist, practising their religion MEANS shoving it down everyone else's throats - that's what defines fundamentalism ... as the name suggests. they don't have the right to inflict their demented worldview on others, any more than i have the right to go around shoving broken bottles into people's faces just because they're ugly.


Unfortunately, this is the very topic everyone tiptoes around. I wish we could get some human person to stand up as a representative of "Fundies" and grill them on what they represent. Wouldn't that be nice? Haul a fundie representative before congress and just ask, "What do you people want?" I think we'd all be shocked.

What "they" want is to pass laws so that only THEY have religous freedom, and everyone else is a heretic. Seriously, fundamentalist religion demands it. You're either on the right side or the wrong side, not right or left.

If we're really too stupid to READ a few history books and discover (yet again) that these efforts at domination always turn out badly, then I have to agree with solong's amazing post that we deserve what we are getting.

Still, I can't help but crack up at the fundamentalist's cry that their religion is being suppressed. Why don't they just say what they really mean, and we'd at least respect them a little more. "You're limiting my right to remove your rights, shove my beliefs down your throat and indoctrinate your children".

As to the topic offered, I think prayers at lunchtime practised in private BY STUDENTS WITHOUT ANY INTERFERANCE FROM ADULTS OF ANY KIND should not be limited. If you allow it for one group, you must allow it for another. My fear and trepidation with Christians in particular is obviously BECAUSE of their majority standing and the lengths they are currently going to to push their own agenda into law. Please don't fucking talk to me about religous freedom and rights on minutia while we ignore the state of the nation.
 

GoneA

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madame_zora said:
Unfortunately, this is the very topic everyone tiptoes around. I wish we could get some human person to stand up as a representative of "Fundies" and grill them on what they represent. Wouldn't that be nice? Haul a fundie representative before congress and just ask, "What do you people want?" I think we'd all be shocked.

yes, i agree, we should
 

madame_zora

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Chuck64 said:
Better yet, we should invite a member from a fundie site... I'm honestly curious to see how they defend their bigotry.


Oh shit, they'd get eaten alive here! I don't think even I'D want to see that.
There's really no defense for the indefensible. The only way for that shit to make sense is to stay cloistered with other like-minded people. As soon as you venture out in the world, those idiocies fall apart quickly enough. Their leaders know this, and that's why they are so adamant about keeping the flock together.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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A lot of you all here are making well thought out, lucid discussions on Christianity, past injustices, past grievances and fundamentalists. Thats all well and good, but it still does not change the fact that Christian children (no other religion, just Christian) have been suspended and disciplined for praying in schools, while these same institutions go out of their way to accomodate other children doing the exact same thing. It's instances like these which really piss me off, because it is grossly unfair and hypocritical. And you are punishing kids for practicing their religion. Does anyone recall a document guaranteeing that the government would not interfere with religious practices? It's just a tiny little thing called the Bill of Rights.

Very few have addressed this aspect in their argument.
 

madame_zora

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I've counted at least five, but we are also insistant on putting it back INSIDE the context of how it applies in society. Would you like to comment on that?

Just to clarify, no one is attacking the initial question, I think everyone who has responded has said that what is done for one should be done for all. I personally am strongly against giving protections to one group over another. The thing is, Christianity HAS had a position of supremacy for a very long time, and despite having a constitution and bill of rights to separate church and state, we currently have leaders CAMPAIGNING, PASSING LAWS, AND OFFERING MONETARY ADVANTAGES TO OTHER CHRISTIANS then complaining about any tiny infraction they can find against Christianity. It sounds very hypocritical to me.