The fall of Christianity in America

[b.c.]

A lot of you all here are making well thought out, lucid discussions on Christianity, past injustices, past grievances and fundamentalists. Thats all well and good, but it still does not change the fact that Christian children (no other religion, just Christian) have been suspended and disciplined for praying in schools, while these same institutions go out of their way to accomodate other children doing the exact same thing. It's instances like these which really piss me off, because it is grossly unfair and hypocritical.

Very few have addressed this aspect in their argument.

I think many of us here have already stated in one way or another that it is unfair and that everyone should have the right to worship when and how they choose.

 

[B_Stronzo]

A lot of you all here are making well thought out, lucid discussions on Christianity, past injustices, past grievances and fundamentalists. Thats all well and good, but it still does not change the fact that Christian children (no other religion, just Christian) have been suspended and disciplined for praying in schools, while these same institutions go out of their way to accomodate other children doing the exact same thing. It's instances like these which really piss me off, because it is grossly unfair and hypocritical.

Very few have addressed this aspect in their argument.

I will. (and you know I think you're just the bomb Lion but....)

Maybe it's simply the Christian's turn at marginalization. Don't think it's gonna happen but just say it is. They've held sway long enough I think. Our entire culture is structured on it... not only in a religious sense but a societal one.

For the love of CHRIST even our swears reflect it.<--------------- see?

I don't think Christians of any discription have anything to bitch about. As for the rest of us we're just "madder than hell and [we're] not gonna take it anymore" to quote the late great Peter Finch.

"The Passion of the Mel" did just fine after all. There's no want for Christian extremist representation. Just turn on any news station local or national and some individual professing to be one of the fold is all to ready to denounce his neighbor. I say let the little shits shut up and pray in silence at their desks. Christianity will survive intact I have no fear.

Their ranks are increasing rather than diminishing. I really don't understand the gripe. It seems like right wing reactionary hype to me.

R.

 

[Dr Rock]

Thats all well and good, but it still does not change the fact that Christian children (no other religion, just Christian) have been suspended and disciplined for praying in schools

i guess you mean children of christian parents. kids don't have the knowledge or experience to understand what organized religion is; if parents want to indoctrinate their kids, then they should be prepared for whatever shit flies their way. religious practise has no place whatsoever in a public education system.

 

[b.c.]

Somehow i just find it hard to believe that Christian children are singled out and suspended for silently praying on thier own time. There's something more to this I would believe.

Perhaps, as Stronzo is suggesting, it's just society's way of equlizing the playing field that may have become uneven because of the power (political etc.) that fundamentalist Christians currently have. There is a fine line, i think as to what's tolerable.

For example, Nativity scenes in front of private residences - fine. In front of corporate headquarters employing people of various faiths - not. Individual prayer in school - fine. The teacher or principal leading the entire student body in morning prayer - not. A brief moment of worship at your place of employment, in the privacy of your own space - fine. The boss leading the workforce or employees in a brief prayer before the meeting - not.

I know this from personal experience because I worked in a place where this was done. And it's been my personal experience that fundamentalists generally have NO respect for an alternative point of view...religious or otherwise.

 

[Chuck64]

Here's the teenie-tiny rural community version of all of this:

I went to a public elementary school just a few miles from home - waaay out in the country.

We had one kid who was, I think, LDS - and she always left the room for the morning pledge of allegiance and wasn't allowed to sing one of the patriotic songs at one of the class shows. Other than that, there wasn't any conflict that I can remember.

We had the yearly Christmas pageant - Santa and the elves, not the nativity, but we also sang religous Christmas carols. It's not an issue today simply because they've ended the entire music program to focus on Bush's teaching-to-the-test initiative (he did it here first people).

Because of overcrowding, we spent 1/2 of fifth grade in an old wooden one-room Lutheran church next door to the school (the same church that my great great grandfather built) while a new row of classrooms could be built. It didn't have the pews anymore, but the altar (including one huge cross) was built in to the wall. Nobody said anything because there wasn't anywhere else for us to go and the public school system didn't actually own the building.

Through the 1995 elections, all the voting for this district was held in that same old church building. I don't know how they got away with it for as long as they did, but they've moved it to the volunteer fire dept. building a mile or so up the road.

 

[madame_zora]

A poem I found appropriate for the discussion:


Shaving off
the Christmas plug,
with hands that smell of arson,
silver rings
for wring-out's rug...
The call sounds,
"Pastor!
Parson!"

Peel the pages
for the pagans,
lay the lien out
for the laymen!
Crying endtimes,
wolfhound,
Reagan...
(Old world notions,
modern agents...)
Indulge the feeble minds
with quaint accounts of
"simpler times."
Coming down to
mass-distortion,
new age rape in
Bible portions.

And now pasteurize the pastoral,
extrude the anxious
dough.
Knead the needy
commonfolk
with kid gloves,
Heaven's glow.
Holy rollers raise the stakes,
and then the tithe flows high..
Doling out for Peter's sake,
whilst Babel's hut infects the eye.

 

[dolf250]

For example, Nativity scenes in front of private residences - fine. In front of corporate headquarters employing people of various faiths - not. Individual prayer in school - fine. The teacher or principal leading the entire student body in morning prayer - not. A brief moment of worship at your place of employment, in the privacy of your own space - fine. The boss leading the workforce or employees in a brief prayer before the meeting - not.

I know this will not be a popular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with a boss leading a prayer nor a company displaying a nativity scene or whatever turns their crank. I think that people are capable of saying they do not want to be included in a prayer and it should be open to people to back out if they choose. I do not follow sports at all, but if I recall correctly there are many teams that say a prayer prior to games or tournaments and not a single athlete has dropped dead from the strain of listening. As for nativity scenes- I cannot possibly see it should not be allowed.

I used to work where the majority of my co-workers were Muslim. At Ramadan I would eat out of site and we would end work early so they could be home for their “feast.” I did not complain about loosing overtime to accommodate their religion nor did I complain about eating elsewhere. It was done out of respect for the men who wanted to practice their faith and I do not see why the same cannot be done if somebody wants to write “Merry Christmas” on their office wall. I continually hear that people need to get a thicker skin when it pertains to what should be censored or considered acceptable in our society unless it comes to others getting a “thicker skin” to accommodate things that may show that a business is owned by or employs people who hold certain beliefs.

 

[SurferGirlCA]

A lot of you all here are making well thought out, lucid discussions on Christianity, past injustices, past grievances and fundamentalists. Thats all well and good, but it still does not change the fact that Christian children (no other religion, just Christian) have been suspended and disciplined for praying in schools, while these same institutions go out of their way to accomodate other children doing the exact same thing. It's instances like these which really piss me off, because it is grossly unfair and hypocritical. And you are punishing kids for practicing their religion. Does anyone recall a document guaranteeing that the government would not interfere with religious practices? It's just a tiny little thing called the Bill of Rights.

Very few have addressed this aspect in their argument.

I thought I addressed it in mine. I need more context, though. What instances are you talking about, Nit? As I said, if a group prayer is being led by school administrators in a public school, I am against that - no matter what group it is. How can an individual be punished for praying on their own? There's a difference between organized prayer being led by people being paid with taxpayer dollars and individual students praying or meditating or whatever. If you have links to specific instances, it would be easier to see what the specific issues were and people can decide if they feel they were valid or not.

 

[b.c.]

I know this will not be a popular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with a boss leading a prayer nor a company displaying a nativity scene or whatever turns their crank. I think that people are capable of saying they do not want to be included in a prayer and it should be open to people to back out if they choose. I do not follow sports at all, but if I recall correctly there are many teams that say a prayer prior to games or tournaments and not a single athlete has dropped dead from the strain of listening. As for nativity scenes- I cannot possibly see it should not be allowed.

Yes there is a brief prayer often before the start of some team sports, and most accept that without much problem.

But in the workplace the problem occurs when the employee has different beliefs or perhaps prefers to worship in his or her own way in private and the boss wants to lead a group prayer.

Easy to say "people are capable of saying they do not want to be included" but in the real world it's not that simple.

A boss whose adamant about it (e.g. a fundamentalist) may take a dim view of an employee who'd opt out of the "ceremony", may cast the person in the light of being a loner, an outsider, not a "team player". The employer may even hold it against this person, bypassing him or her when promotions come up, degrading his/her job evaluation, etc.

The real reason would never show up on the employee's records, and he/she would not be able to prove the discrimination. So knowing the possibility of that occurring, employees are forced to acquiesce to something they may not want to participate in, even when their own beliefs are different.

That's why it's best that be kept out of the workplace. Maybe no one has dropped dead from having to listen. But neither has anyone dropped dead for having to wait to pray in their own way, and on their own time.

 

[Sam Beckett]

Religion is just a way of controlling the masses.

There is no God, heaven or hell.

My views on the subject.

(I'm English)

At school, Muslims were allowed off for holidays and people of every other religion. There was no praying at secondary school, for any faith. I think they expected it to be done at home and not to enforce it or make other people sit through it who didn't want to.

Unfortunately, at Primary, Nursery and College prayers were compulsory although only once a week (in assembly) and before dinner (at nursery and primary)

I just think religion should be left at home and shouldn't be forced on people who don't want it, even if it is just sitting through a prayer and not some indoctrination. I have better things to do with my time than sit through a sermon.

 

[DC_DEEP]

We had one kid who was, I think, LDS - and she always left the room for the morning pledge of allegiance and wasn't allowed to sing one of the patriotic songs at one of the class shows. Other than that, there wasn't any conflict that I can remember.

That actually sounds more like Jehovah's Witnesses. We had a couple of those in my elementary school; unfortunately, our teachers and administration were just a little less kind to those students, and said some pretty inexcusable things to them.

I thought I addressed it in mine. I need more context, though. What instances are you talking about, Nit? As I said, if a group prayer is being led by school administrators in a public school, I am against that - no matter what group it is. How can an individual be punished for praying on their own? There's a difference between organized prayer being led by people being paid with taxpayer dollars and individual students praying or meditating or whatever. If you have links to specific instances, it would be easier to see what the specific issues were and people can decide if they feel they were valid or not.

Thanks, SurferGirl. I'm still waiting to see some facts about these occurances, rather than some vague references that sound more like "urban legend" concoted at the pulpit to scare the fundies into political action. In which school did the student get ejected for wearing a cross necklace? In what school were some students told that they were not allowed to pray, even as others were praying? I used to teach in public schools, and even in the rural area where I was employed, we neither told students not to pray (there were occasional "prayer meetings" organized by the students, but outside the building, usually meeting "near the flagpole) nor did we lead organized prayers. It was left up to the individuals.

 

[Freddie53]

Better yet, we should invite a member from a fundie site... I'm honestly curious to see how they defend their bigotry.

Here in America, we are focussing on Christian "fundies." I know a Muslim who is married to a Christian. His version of Islam is totally different than the verion of the Islamic "fundies." I read where Hindu "fundies" have killed Christians and Muslims in India.

We should not be real selective here. ALL "fundies" of all religions need to be denounced. Dr. Rock, you are right about what fundies of all religions want and that is to MAKE everyone conform to THEIR version of religion.

All fundies have one thing in common. They take a religion, any religion, that has some merits and distort that religion to be one of hate, not love, meaness, not compassion and the list continues on down the line.


Jesus in nearly all his teachings taught love. Sadly some of his followers don't. Some Christian fundies would outlaw all religions except theirs here in the USA. Mohammed said that Jews and Christians were people of the book. Some of his followers would kill every Jew and Christian they come into contact. The Hindus believe in many Gods. The tolerent Hindus simply have accepted Jesus as another one of the 10,000 or so Gods they recognize. But the Hindu "fundies" are killing Christians and Muslims.


But to tell the Jewish children they can wear the star of David and the Muslim children they can wear symbols of Islam and tell the Christian children they can't wear a cross is wrong. Not only that but rules like that flame the Christian fundie fires. No matter how much some may dislike Christianity or how much wrong Christianity may have done in the past, taking away freedom of religion from any child is wrong.


I am a practicing Christian. I have no use for Christian fundies. None. Most of their leaders are as fake as a three dollar bill.


Jana is rightl All children should be allowed to practice their religion in private in the classroom, within reason. At recess children will talk to each other. When children are discussing religion, the more adults can stay out of those conversations the better.

The one thing about all this that I really admmrie about Jana and Dr. Rock is that while they are not pro religion, they are very pro, "public schools should be neutral on religion, not showing either favortism, or animosity toward a children practicing their religion."

 

[chico8]

Sure, there probably have been isolated incidences where kids have been disciplined for praying in schools and that is reprehensible as long as these kids were doing it on their own and weren't pressured by adults. A few incidents, however, does not make a war on christianitly.

The insecurity of fundamentalists is truly astounding no matter what religion they belong to. Practice your own religion however you want, but keep it out of my face. Fanaticism of any kind is ugly to see and I wouldn't want my children exposed to religious fanaticism anymore than I would want them exposed to hard core pornography

I've never understood how people can debase themselves so thoroughly in public, wasn't Jesus adamnant about accepting people for who they are? I can't even begin to tell you how sick to my stomach it makes me feel when I see overtly public displays of faith.

 

[chico8]

I know this will not be a popular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with a boss leading a prayer nor a company displaying a nativity scene or whatever turns their crank. I think that people are capable of saying they do not want to be included in a prayer and it should be open to people to back out if they choose. I do not follow sports at all, but if I recall correctly there are many teams that say a prayer prior to games or tournaments and not a single athlete has dropped dead from the strain of listening. As for nativity scenes- I cannot possibly see it should not be allowed.

I used to work where the majority of my co-workers were Muslim. At Ramadan I would eat out of site and we would end work early so they could be home for their “feast.” I did not complain about loosing overtime to accommodate their religion nor did I complain about eating elsewhere. It was done out of respect for the men who wanted to practice their faith and I do not see why the same cannot be done if somebody wants to write “Merry Christmas” on their office wall. I continually hear that people need to get a thicker skin when it pertains to what should be censored or considered acceptable in our society unless it comes to others getting a “thicker skin” to accommodate things that may show that a business is owned by or employs people who hold certain beliefs.

I disagree on your opinion of religion in the workplace. If the employer clearly states that all employees must take part in mandatory prayer, that would clearly be grounds for discrimination. It would also mean that there is only one de facto faith in the workplace and that is clearly against the principles upon which this country was founded. Even if there was no overt declaration, employees might feel compelled to take part for fear of losing their jobs. Nobody should be compelled to participate in anyone else's religious beliefs.

I worked with a woman who was Serbian Orthodox. The Orthodox faith uses the Julian Calendar so for her religious holidays, she took time off from work. It wasn't an issue. Respect for Muslims during Ramadan doesn't take a lot of effort either. There's a big difference between respecting another person's religion and being forced to participate.

I don't celebrate christmas, but do pay lip service to the solstice. When people ask me what I'm doing, it's always uncomfortable when I tell them nothing and inevitably I'm inundated with invites when all I want is to be left alone and not forced into celebrating some holiday that has no meaning to me. Just because I'm white and was born in the US doesn't mean the holiday should be forced on me. I make it a point to avoid anyplace that overdoes christmas. Let's face it, it's just a big commercial free for all anyway.

That said, I have no problem if someone decorates their home or cubicle, but a little sensitivity to those who don't share the same beliefs isn't that difficult or onerous of a burden. Happy Holidays is very inclusive and nobody should ever feel left out or put upon by hearing it, Merry Christmas, is making assumptions that should not be made.

 

[madame_zora]

Fundamentalism has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus.

Jesus was cool, he ran around the countryside homeless, living off the largesse of others with twelve guys and some broad. He said we should be nice to each other and our father in heaven would be nice to us. He got pissed off at the greedy fucks that defiled the church with their merchandising. He told his followers not to draw swords against his enemies. He told the harlot being stoned that he would not judge her. He told us to go into a closet to pray, and not to announce our good deeds with trumpets. He told us to render to Caesar what is Caesar's- thus telling us he had no opinion on affairs of state government. He told us not to worry about the speck in our brother's eye while we ignored the plank in our own (my personal favorite). He basically told us to straighten up and fly right. Even Gandhi loved Jesus.

Fundies stand in direct opposition to all of this. They're about amassing money for themselves, judging others and finding them lacking. They draw swords as a first choice, not last. They condemn, boy do they condemn.
They actively CAMPAIGN FOR POLITICAL POSITIONS USING THEIR FAITH, and this is the grossest slam in the face of Jesus I can imagine. They worry exclusively about everyone else's business and hide the evidence of their own misdeeds. These are filthy human beings, and IF, just IF there really is a heaven- I doubt a single one of them will see it.

"Mind your own motherfucking business" doesn't mean just ignore mine- It means PAY ATTENTION to who you are in this life and what you represent. I don't think the excuse "I was just following orders" will suffice if you're following the wrong leader (a bad pastor/preacher and not Jesus). If you insist on reading a religious text for guidance through life, why not read it with a positive heart, instead of psychotically combing the pages to find any shread of justification for your own evils?

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Somehow i just find it hard to believe that Christian children are singled out and suspended for silently praying on thier own time. There's something more to this I would believe.

That's my take too. These so-called cases of blatant discrimination usually have some unmentioned qualifying circumstance.

As for the so-called "voluntary" participation in prayers in class and on sports teams, that's a pipe dream. Peer pressure, ridicule and ostracization are the likely consequences for anyone who doesn't fit "voluntarily" with the majority sect.

Dr Rock said it best: There's no place for religion in public education.

 

[Chuck64]

That actually sounds more like Jehovah's Witnesses. We had a couple of those in my elementary school; unfortunately, our teachers and administration were just a little less kind to those students, and said some pretty inexcusable things to them.

Yep. Now that you mention it, that sounds right. I knew it was one of the "door-to-door evangelism" religions.

 

[Freddie53]

That's my take too. These so-called cases of blatant discrimination usually have some unmentioned qualifying circumstance.

As for the so-called "voluntary" participation in prayers in class and on sports teams, that's a pipe dream. Peer pressure, ridicule and ostracization are the likely consequences for anyone who doesn't fit "voluntarily" with the majority sect.

Dr Rock said it best: There's no place for religion in public education.

There is a fine line between allowing students to pracitce elements of their religion privately while at school and allowing a gorup to turn it into a public spectacle. Team prayers in masses are not voluntary in private practice of religion. Knowing that there are Christiasn, Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindu, agnostic and no religion students in a classroom a teacher might allow for a moment for each to practice their religion in private. To allow for a group to meet and have a loud spoken prayer where all students have to be quiet during the prayer is not really voluntary. All the students are having to be quiet for the prayer. Even if half the students are Muslim, they can pray facing Mecca silently.

However, Dr. Rock has a very valid point about religion in school for a reason. It is hard to allow students to practice religion without it affecting the others in the classroom. It can be done if the teacher wants to see that no child is being undully influenced. But some teachers try to "under the table" encourage their own brand of religion.

 

[madame_zora]

Freddie, I think most people could take a lesson from us here about keeping their personal opinions separate from their jobs. Very few people can actually DO that, and the nature of evangelism is that you're SUPPOSED to convert by any means possible, including harassment. This is why it has no place in school. Now, I can't imagine if a kid bowed his head at the lunch table to say HIS OWN silent prayer that that would upset anyone, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about groups of people praying and that has absolutely NO place in public school.

Dolf, while I don't doubt your intention, I in no way share your faith in humanity. Since you are a member of the majority religion, you'll really never know how it feels to others to be constantly drug along for the ride on something in which you have no interest at all, or even find irritating. I am positively stunned stupid that people thesedays are so eager to flip the bird at the constitution and bill of rights. What the fuck. The fact that you don't see that as a problem is part of the problem.

 

[Freddie53]

"Now, I can't imagine if a kid bowed his head at the lunch table to say HIS OWN silent prayer that that would upset anyone, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about groups of people praying and that has absolutely NO place in public school." Madame_Zora

What is this about Zora? We can't force the little chidlren to bow and say a prescribed prayer? Tsk Tsk

Seriously, I agree with you. We can't do that. A student's right to practice his or her religion must not unnecessarily infringe on the other students who have no wish to participate in the religious practice at hand. The teacher is supposed to have enugh sense to see where students are privately practicing their religion and when they are making a public spectacle of themselves. Notice I said "suppose to be able." Some clearly don't know and some know and do it anyway.

But this is a true story. When I served on the social studies curriculum for my state, the subject of world historical fifgures came up. We were asked to name a representative group of 20 people who had influenced the world.

Some named Mohammad, Buddha, Confucous among other names, then the name Jesus came up. Immediately someone said, Oh no, we can't include Jesus in a list of historical world personalities that is religion. I was sitting there and pointed out the other religious personalities on this list. Jesus made the list.

It does no good to over react the other way either. If one child wears a Star of David then another child can wear a cross. To say that you have taught world history to the students and not mentioned the two largest religions isn't making much sense either. Like it or not, Christianity and Islam have greatly affected the chain of events for the last 2000 years. And both religions along with Judaism are greatly affecting history right now; As in Iraq, the Holy Land, Iran and the Balkan countries where religous wars raged on in the 1990's and continue on today.

But to teach world history with a us and them approach is wrong. To say for instance as a teacher the difference between what WE believe and what the Muslims believe is this. And who pray tell is the We here? It has to be proper nouns taught in a neutral setting: The Chrsitians, The Muslims, the Jews, the Hindus, etc. The teaching about religions is totally different from teaching the religions. And allowing chidlren to practice their religion privately is far different from allowing one religious group to put on a big public display of religion in a "private" religous experience costume. Everyone can see that for what it is.

Where it really gets sticky is cultural norms. I am not talking about practicing a religion. But a Muslim girl wearing a covering over her head in an American classroom. Food choices. etc. We are talking culture now and that really gets sticky. It is so hard to differentiate culture from religion. Sometimes it just can't be done.