The fall of Christianity in America

[dolf250]

I agree with people when they say that publicly demanded prayer has no place in public schools. Children should be free to pray on their own to which ever god or entity they wish without having any problems. There are just a few things that have been said that I disagree with.

I will address the most recent first. I do know what it is like to be drug along for the ride in something that I have no interest in. As I stated, I worked where I was one of the only Christians. The vast majority were Muslim and most of the rest would have been atheists. I worked in these conditions for about 3 or 3 ½ years over the course of perhaps 6 years. During that time I made friends and, as I mentioned, went out of my way to accommodate them. At one plant I would relieve the burnerman once or twice a day so that he could pray without having to keep an eye on the instruments. When I would invite anyone over for dinner I would be off the butchers for Halal meat. This is a religion that is in direct opposition to many of my beliefs (not the least of which is their belief that Jesus was a mere prophet like Moses.) Yes, I “belong” to the majority religion, but do not and did not attend church on anything approaching a regular basis and certainly did not feel as though I was a part of the mainstream. Many times they would be speaking Lebanese in the lunch shack. With me being the only person who did not understand a word I think I have a small idea of what it is like to not only be on the outside of the “mainstream” religion, but also a small idea of what it is like to be an immigrant. Having addressed that I need to say that your new avatar is damn hot, Mme. Z.!

As for the “praying boss;” I do not advocate that any boss should be allowed to institute “mandatory prayer.” The argument that a person may be discriminated against because they do not wish to take part in the prayer may be valid. But any boss who would fire somebody or hold back a promotion based on this would probably do so anyhow. Any boss who matches that description would be promoting the employee who is in their bible study course or church and skipping over the guy who spends Saturday night in the bar. It is not right, but I am certain it has happened.

It works the other way as well. I know several “fundamentalists” who will not do anything on Sunday. It is their view that the bible demands it of them (though the New Testament clearly states not to hold certain days, months etc… sacred.) In at least 2 instances they were not promoted due to their “lack of commitment” to their employer because they refused the Sunday overtime. I can attest to the fact that neither lacked commitment to their employer- they stayed for any other overtime and were about the most loyal employees anyone could hope for.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

I do not follow sports at all, but if I recall correctly there are many teams that say a prayer prior to games or tournaments and not a single athlete has dropped dead from the strain of listening. As for nativity scenes- I cannot possibly see it should not be allowed.

I have no religion at all, so for me, prayer before games is just something that occurs. I don't believe in what I'm "praying" for, and there's no specific need for me to cause a scene. Of course, there's a big difference between going along with prayer when you don't have a religion, and going along with prayer when you have a different religion.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I should clarify an earlier point I made: If students choose to gather and pray, it should (of course) be on their own time. It should not occur inside the classroom during class time, even if it is just before lunch - the teacher should not make accomodations for them. As for the wearing of religious icons and symbols, the school has no authority to tell a student that they may not wear a cross, a star, a star&crescent, a pentagram, or any other symbol.

Regarding the workplace, it depends upon many factors, but I would propose that a major criterion would be the type of business. If it is a privately owned business, the business owner has every right to dictate how he runs his business. If an employee finds his work environment to be distasteful or offensive, he should find employment at a more amenable organization, or find a job in another sector. I don't really see that as too much different than dress code (men must wear a tie, women must wear dresses or skirts with hose). If you don't like to wear a tie, don't work in sales at Acxiom.

On a more humorous note... true story here. Two of my friends, Paul and Matt, were shopping somewhere (a mall, or something very public like that.) This occurred a few years back, when home-schooling was big in the news in Arkansas. They were accosted by one of those "Jesus salesmen" types, who tried to give them "literature." Matt did not miss a beat, and replied "Oh, no thank you... I'm home-churched." When Paul related that story to me, I laughed so hard my sides literally ached.

 

[Dr Rock]

i got suspended like 4 or 5 times between the ages of 11 and 15 for refusing to pray / sing hymns in school. IMAGINE THAT

 

[Chuck64]

As for the “praying boss;” I do not advocate that any boss should be allowed to institute “mandatory prayer.” The argument that a person may be discriminated against because they do not wish to take part in the prayer may be valid. But any boss who would fire somebody or hold back a promotion based on this would probably do so anyhow. Any boss who matches that description would be promoting the employee who is in their bible study course or church and skipping over the guy who spends Saturday night in the bar. It is not right, but I am certain it has happened.

It gets worse than that. At my previous job, the HR director slowly replaced every employee in her entire department with members of her church. She would make up some half-assed excuse to fire them or make their job so impossibly difficult that they would quit. She would hire a replacement the same day the job postings went up on the bulletin board. By the time I left, every single person in that department (out of every possible candidate in a city of 100,000 people) went to that same little 600 member country babtist church. They had group prayer in the conference room. They shut down the HR department (including the switchboard) for 2 days when the church had a revival. I don't know how she got away with it, but she did.

EDIT: To DC_DEEPs point about privately owned businesses, this was (still is) a Fortune 500.

 

[ceg1526]

i got suspended like 4 or 5 times between the ages of 11 and 15 for refusing to pray / sing hymns in school. IMAGINE THAT

I'm shocked.

 

[chico8]

Regarding the workplace, it depends upon many factors, but I would propose that a major criterion would be the type of business. If it is a privately owned business, the business owner has every right to dictate how he runs his business. If an employee finds his work environment to be distasteful or offensive, he should find employment at a more amenable organization, or find a job in another sector. I don't really see that as too much different than dress code (men must wear a tie, women must wear dresses or skirts with hose). If you don't like to wear a tie, don't work in sales at Acxiom.
.

Recent cases like the Boy Scouts and gays or religious groups like the Salvation Army being able to refuse employment to people they find morally objectionable have blurred the lines when it comes to workplace discrimination.

The playing field should be level for all involved and discrimination, while it can't be eliminated (we're all human) should be discouraged to the greatest extent possible.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Recent cases like the Boy Scouts and gays or religious groups like the Salvation Army being able to refuse employment to people they find morally objectionable have blurred the lines when it comes to workplace discrimination.

The playing field should be level for all involved and discrimination, while it can't be eliminated (we're all human) should be discouraged to the greatest extent possible.

Again, there are many issues rolled into one. To say that a private institution/business/organization must accept and tolerate one and all is a bit silly. IMHO, that is their right, as a PRIVATE entity. My discomfort comes in where the government is funding it directly, (meaning my tax dollars are being used) or indirectly (as in tax exemptions). Boy Scouts of America is a homophobic, discriminatory organization. So be it. Churches often provide meeting space for troops in their area. So be it. I do not, however, want meeting space provided to them at City Hall. If I start a private business, should I not be able to hire whomever I choose to hire? If my business is open on Sunday, should I be able to require employees to work on Sunday? Should a church be required to remove a crucifix from the altar because a parishoner finds it disturbing? It is different for government or government-sponsored agencies. It is a very unusual situation for someone to be hired, without knowing SOMETHING about the corporate culture and the work environment of their employer. If I applied for a job, and during the interview process I discovered that a Monday morning prayer meeting was required of all employees, I would either look elsewhere, or I would just deal with it. I certainly would not be so stupid as to accept the employment, then file a discrimination suit.

 

[madame_zora]

i got suspended like 4 or 5 times between the ages of 11 and 15 for refusing to pray / sing hymns in school. IMAGINE THAT

You know, this got passed by, but this is really a problem. Between 11 and 15 (the perfect years for indoctrination, I might add) the mere act of not participating in a cattle-drive got him suspended from his learning institution. Now, anyone who's talked to the guy for more than three mintues knows he never stopped reading, but it's pretty plain the statement it makes about culture, even outside the repressive us of a.

And isn't it always the bright minds who don't want to be processed through "the system"? But hey- clear them out of the way and you have less dissent and disruption while you mold the rest into working class stiffs and little toy soldiers.

This isn't just about religion, it's about crowd control. Oh wait...

 

[chico8]

Again, there are many issues rolled into one. To say that a private institution/business/organization must accept and tolerate one and all is a bit silly. IMHO, that is their right, as a PRIVATE entity. My discomfort comes in where the government is funding it directly, (meaning my tax dollars are being used) or indirectly (as in tax exemptions). Boy Scouts of America is a homophobic, discriminatory organization. So be it. Churches often provide meeting space for troops in their area. So be it. I do not, however, want meeting space provided to them at City Hall. If I start a private business, should I not be able to hire whomever I choose to hire? If my business is open on Sunday, should I be able to require employees to work on Sunday? Should a church be required to remove a crucifix from the altar because a parishoner finds it disturbing? It is different for government or government-sponsored agencies. It is a very unusual situation for someone to be hired, without knowing SOMETHING about the corporate culture and the work environment of their employer. If I applied for a job, and during the interview process I discovered that a Monday morning prayer meeting was required of all employees, I would either look elsewhere, or I would just deal with it. I certainly would not be so stupid as to accept the employment, then file a discrimination suit.

I agree that governments shouldn't fund homophobic or racist groups, unfortunately, many religions are exactly that, much less all the private groups that get tax free status and then are allowed to discriminate. Catholic charities are a case in point. If they are unwilling to serve people who "offend" them then they should pay taxes like everyone else.

Churches already have special status and no church is going to be forced by any court to remove a crucifix from the altar so that's sort of a strawman argument.

Few corporations are willing to discriminate on a regular basis unless their customer base is very narrow. Most corporations encourage diversity, especially if they have an international customer base. Obviously not all corporations are bastions of babylon but in this day and age it just doesn't pay to have all white and English only speaking employees. Economic necessity forces most to at least pay lip service to diversity.

The problem arises more in the small business arena. Having lived all my life on the west coast, it would be suicide for me to move to the south. A gay atheist simply wouldn't be welcomed but what about all the home grown gay atheists? should they be forced to move to the west coast simply to find a job? This country is polarized enough and I don't think it should be encouraged by de facto discrimination.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I agree that governments shouldn't fund homophobic or racist groups, unfortunately, many religions are exactly that, much less all the private groups that get tax free status and then are allowed to discriminate. Catholic charities are a case in point. If they are unwilling to serve people who "offend" them then they should pay taxes like everyone else.

Churches already have special status and no church is going to be forced by any court to remove a crucifix from the altar so that's sort of a strawman argument.

So far, so good. I have long advocated revocation of the tax-exempt status for churches. Many of them tend to abuse that status, anyway.

The problem arises more in the small business arena. Having lived all my life on the west coast, it would be suicide for me to move to the south. A gay atheist simply wouldn't be welcomed but what about all the home grown gay atheists? should they be forced to move to the west coast simply to find a job? This country is polarized enough and I don't think it should be encouraged by de facto discrimination.

I am one of those gay atheists of whom you speak, and I was home-grown in Arkansas... southern enough. And I have worked for several of these groups - government, private large industry, and small business. I dealt with the corporate environment accordingly. Even in a job where being out was OK (in the airline industry) I didn't advertise, and I didn't hide. I just simply went in, did my job exceptionally well, and went home. And the job I had where I was one of 2 people out of 30 employees who didn't go to the same evangelical, charismatic church. I dealt with that environment until I found something else. Don't misunderstand, of course I think that sort of stuff should not go on at all. I am simply recognizing the rights of a private person and the rights of a private, taxpaying, business owner.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

I'd like to generally point out that Chrisitanity really really is *not* "falling" in America.

The head of State, Mr George Dubleya, is Chrisitan, and, may I remind you, believes that he has actually spoken directly with God.

How much more Christian can you get than "God told me to become president" and then, mysteriously start bashing the Arabs.... Hmmm?



But really, I couldn't care less.

Religion in my mind is evil - it brainwashes people into accepting a certain kind of "reality" based on "faith". Faith is most comprehensively described as "Belief without Justification", in other words, you are believeing the truth of something that has no evidence for it.

Looking at this with my cold, logical mind, I have to say that I find the whole notion of this utterly absurd. It is all about convinceing yourself that there is some sort of divine guideing hand in reality, for no other reason than you would like it to be that way.

Furthermore, Religion is by far the worst cause of social devisions on the face of the planet. Faith seperates the people, it makes them think of "us" and "them", in it's inflexible, illogical nature, it causes wars, and creates tensions and hatreds for no reason other than one group of people believeing one absurd thing and another believeing another absurd thing and these two, utterly illogical beliefs being incompatable.

In the worst case, people actually use Religion as an excuse for such anger and hatred, one need look no further than the KKK, the Nazis, Islamic Terrorists, and even the Right WWing "Fundies" in the USA, to see that certain kinds of people will simply use their Religion as an excuse to hate people they don't like, and prey on them with the excuse of doing "God's Work".

So people fight, and kill, and in many cases documented in the bible, actually rape, and yes, die, in the name of an entity or entities who cannot be proven one way or another to exist, and that they have simply chosen to believe in.

When I look upon human history in this way it seems to me as if the one thing that makes humans superior to other mammals: reason, is the one thing most often overlooked by mankind.

Now, don't get me wrong, I completely understand that not all beliefs are like that, my mother is a firm Christian, and infact a minister. But she doesn't wear her religion on her sleave, or use it as an excuse to hate other people, and is probably the most "true Christian" I have ever met, in her complete lack of deviseive thinking.

However, on the whole, Religion is used for great evil.

 

[chico8]

And the job I had where I was one of 2 people out of 30 employees who didn't go to the same evangelical, charismatic church. I dealt with that environment until I found something else. Don't misunderstand, of course I think that sort of stuff should not go on at all. I am simply recognizing the rights of a private person and the rights of a private, taxpaying, business owner.

That's fine, but, and this is where the whole, people have choice argument loses it's power. You're gay, single (?) no kids (?) educated and I would assume have a fair amount of flexibility in your life. Not all people do. Small town America isn't exactly knonw for its choices when it comes to employment and many who find themselves in untenable jobs are stuck with them.

Rights are not god given nor do they appear out of thin air, they are granted by the government in exchange for responsibilities, in this case on the part of the employer. One of those responsibilities is to ensure that people aren't discriminated against when it comes to employment. Like I said before, we're all human and we all tend to discriminate but it's in all of our best interests to ensure that discrimination is kept at a minimum.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

That's fine, but, and this is where the whole, people have choice argument loses it's power. You're gay, single (?) no kids (?) educated and I would assume have a fair amount of flexibility in your life. Not all people do. Small town America isn't exactly knonw for its choices when it comes to employment and many who find themselves in untenable jobs are stuck with them.

Rights are not god given nor do they appear out of thin air, they are granted by the government in exchange for responsibilities, in this case on the part of the employer. One of those responsibilities is to ensure that people aren't discriminated against when it comes to employment. Like I said before, we're all human and we all tend to discriminate but it's in all of our best interests to ensure that discrimination is kept at a minimum.

Rights have absolutely nothing to do with the government. If the government controls it, it's not a right..it's a "privelege"

 

[Freddie53]

Several points to make:

1 The best and the worst of people are found in religion.

Why? Religion gives an opportunity for fake people to take avantage of poeple. There is nothing worse than a fake preacher. Churches have been torn assunder by the fakers who usually masqurate as FUNDIES.

2. Most of the attempts to keep religion especially Christianity out of public schools is coming from mainline Christians bending over backward to make the minorities feel comfortable and are willing to let those minority religion wear religious symbols while not wearing their own.

3. Mainline Christianity is dying. Fundie Christianity is booming. Bad for Christianity. Bad for our country. Mainline Christianity isn't going door to door trying to force people to believe like they do.

4. Fundalmentalism is found in all religions. Nearly all of the bad done in the name of religion has been done by people who qualify as fundamentalist. All the good that people who have genuine religious convictions is hidden by the jackasses that make the news now and over time all doing stupid stuff that on closer look is usually banned by the very religion that the jack ass says he is.

5. A personal request and it is personal and I know it is. However please refer to FUNDIES who claim to be Christians as either Fundies or Fundie Christians.
I read all the horrible stuff and know it to be true. But still when one of you refers to them as Christians, I just almost jump. It may not be right, but I won't watch them on TV, go to their churches except for weddings and funerals etc. I do try to be a gentleman to the Fundies the way my Mother taught me to be around people that you don't agree with.

This is just a personal request. If you still use the word Christian to refer to THEM, The FUNDIES, I as not going to bite you head off. If you really believe that we mainline Christians belong in the same camp as the fundie Christians that is your right and your right to say that here. You may see something I don't see.

I just know I don't agree with fundalmentalism in any religion. It is the cause of wars, inquisitions, and today attempts to by hook or crook amend the US Consitution to force fundie bliefs on all of us. And by George Bush if they can't get the people to vote in an amendment, then that got Georgie to appoint one or two more and then it is all over. We will be the United States of Fundieland.

My last rant. Geroge Bush is not against obortion. It doesn't give a rat's ass about it one way or the other. But he needed the fundie vote. You can bet your sweet ass that if one of the twins got pregnant and he could get away with it and not get caught, there would be an abortion and very quicily at that.

Freddie's rant is over. You can all go back to snoozing on Sunday now.

 

[JustAsking]

To Freddie53's last post.

You nailed it my friend. I cannot add a thing to it. Thanks for your eloquence.

JustAsking

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Bump

 

[B_Stronzo]

Bump

HUH? OH! Sorry Lion I was praying the Rosary... :tongue:

 

[Freddie53]

HUH? OH! Sorry Lion I was praying the Rosary... :tongue:

Oh dear, Stronzo, you might teach a class of the use of the Rosary for the Protesants and unbelievers. Perhaps in this "all male" class we could learn sme other techniques to "help' make us "feel" better. You know recreation is a part of our spiritaul good health as well. And we want to ber "compeltely well' now don't we>?

 

[jeremyA]

'Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of souless conditions. It is the opium of the people' :- Karl Marx
as true now as it ever was.
There are some'Christains' I know who would benifit from falling a very long way down a very deep well.Also why aren't Christians called Christists?