The fear of female sexuality

D_Phallus P Phyllum

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Posts
179
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
103
Your reason for demonizing the female and her offspring is a male chauvinist one as opposed to being biologically based darkhorse2008uk.

I'm also quite surprised by your use of the word 'demonizing'. I have said nothing that demonizes females, nor have I been chauvinistically praising males. The whole point of evolutionary psychology is that it provides an attempt to view human behavior in an objective manner in order to explain what 'works' in terms of successful evolutionary strategies - i.e. what behavior is most likely to produce healthy offspring which can go onto produce yet more healthy offspring.

If the image evolutionary psychology depicts of females appears to you to be 'demonizing', then this only reflects your interpretation of these evolutionary successful behaviors. In other words, the emotive judgement lies with you.

We have been invited to provide thoughts as to why unrestricted female sexuality is feared in our culture - why it has been 'demonized' - and evolutionary psychology provides some reasons for why this might be.
 
Last edited:

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
I agree that if the tribe were openly polyamorous, then none of the things I have discussed would be an issue. However, we do not really know that early humans were openly polyamorous. They may have been, but if they were, why are we not openly polyamorous today? How did the taboos emerge? How did we become so sexually 'up tight'?

From the perspective of evolutionary psychology, the idea of 'ownership' of the children is the issue. People will do far more to protect the interest of their 'own' children than they will for children that are not their 'own'. This is true of both males and females. Therefore, a male will do more for a child that he knows is his own genetic lineage, and this behavior would have then become the most successful evolutionary strategy.

For this reason, unrestricted female sexuality may have become taboo, since the authenticity of the male's parenthood becomes unclear (as I explained earlier).

There are openly polyamorous groups in the present. Polygamy is easier to find than polygyny but there are some of those too. I'm talking ethnicities, not just 'we' who have internet to discuss things.

Just like other species, fx mallard ducks, humans exhibit a varietyof sexual behaviors and orientations. The rest is the overlay of culture. The culture you are generalizing from, darkhorse, is not the only one in 2010. Just want that to be crystal clear.

I would say that I am a member of an extremely tiny group of the polyamorous which exists without disturbing the status quo in which we were born, and it has religious elements if we happen to be devout, too.
 

D_Phallus P Phyllum

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Posts
179
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
103
Polygamy is easier to find than polygyny but there are some of those too. I'm talking ethnicities, not just 'we' who have internet to discuss things.

Polygyny is a form of Polygamy (multiple marriage) so this statement of yours is completely redundant.

The most common form of Polygamy is polygyny, where one man takes on more than one wife. In this scenario, the issue of paternity is not a problem, so the evolutionary argument still holds.

In the community you claim to belong to, is the issue of paternity not an issue? Would you be happy to raise a child you had no idea was your own? Would it be of no concern to you that you would be investing your life and your financial resources in bringing up a child you had absolutely no blood relationship with? Would you give such a child the same attention as a child that you definitely knew you had fathered?

I think for most men, the answer would be 'no', if they are entirely honest. It's likely that the reasons for this are written in our biology. It has been shown in scientific studies that men unconsciously rated images of children that had been altered to resemble themselves more positively when it came to resource allocation. Part of the write-up of this study can be found here:

http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP05358362.pdf
(scroll down to the bottom of the page marked 360)

What we are discussing here is the nature and origin of the fear of unrestricted female sexuality. You seem to be saying that fear over unrestricted female sexuality does not exist, is this intentional? If so, you need to make a stronger case, as this is the subject of this thread.
 

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
If you read my first post in the thread, you'd know that I wholeheartedly believe it exists. It's the norm, and that has not changed. I guess I was contrasting multiple husbands (polyandry) and multiple wives (polygyny) too close together for you to catch it?

I have multiple 'husbands'. I do not raise their children by others. Go back and read my first post in the thread please.

http://www.lpsg.org/2590778-post10.html
 
Last edited:

kinda_hung

Sexy Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Posts
205
Media
57
Likes
66
Points
348
Verification
View
Gender
Male
Interesting. Many women need a dvd or learning curve to be more open. For some reason they think that if they are open sexually to their signifigant other that they are a slut or dirty!! Which is what a man wants from his woman!! And a man thinks that if he shows what he totally wants he is a perfert or something!
 

D_Phallus P Phyllum

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Posts
179
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
103
I guess I was contrasting multiple husbands (polyandry) and multiple wives (polygyny) too close together for you to catch it?

But that's not what you said to begin with! I guess what you meant to say was "Polygyny is easier to find than Polyandry", but what you actually said was "Polygamy is easier to find than polygyny"; hence my reaction.

From reading your initial post I see that you essentially agree with the position that the root of the cultural fear of unrestrained female sexuality is the issue of paternal uncertainty.

Some people have accused me of being male chauvinistic, or of demonizing females with this view, but that's not my intention at all. I would rather it wasn't the case - and that humans were a more tolerant, less jealous species - but it seems a very logical argument to explain the very real and persistent attitude that unreleased female sexuality is something to be feared or looked down upon; that it's seen as 'bad behavior', or 'immoral'.
 

Ethyl

Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Posts
5,194
Media
19
Likes
1,714
Points
333
Location
Philadelphia (Pennsylvania, United States)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Female
From what you have written here, I'm not sure you do understand how this perspective works. The point is, the behavior is *instinctive*, and originates from a time when males *were* in short supply, because for the majority of our evolution, we would have lived in a small group or tribe.
I understand how it works but humans are very adaptable creatures and aren't complete slaves to their biology. If a short supply of men is where the instinct originated wouldn't that instinct lessen over time with the growth of the male population? Makes me wonder what will happen with the over-abundance of Chinese males in the next 20 years.

Therefore, there is a sound biological explanation for the social denigration of 'unrestrained' female sexuality, even if the reasons for this lie in the distant past of our ancestry. The fear of this behavior is written into our biology, and persists today, even though - thanks to modern technology and civilization - the reasons for it are no longer necessary.
So religious and social mores are rooted in biology and aren't constructs created by humans? I think we owe more to religious and social norms than biology for our current social behaviours.
 

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
But that's not what you said to begin with! I guess what you meant to say was "Polygyny is easier to find than Polyandry", but what you actually said was "Polygamy is easier to find than polygyny"; hence my reaction.

oops. My bad. Sorry about that. :redface:

Yes, I'd say we agree on that. Biology jerks us around more than we would like whenit comes to offspring. I find i will do things for my own children which I would never do for a stranger's. And those who have never been parents often do not realize how much one's ability to love is changed, both man and woman, by our instinctive reactions to those of our own.

Not everybody likes babies, and the definition of a bad parent is one who can't even feel parental to their own child. But they are a minority too, thank goodness. I don't think everyone should reproduce, and I wasn't going to do it, but when it happened, the way instinct kicked in surprised me.

I will never gainsay the parental instinct a man feels toward his own children. Those of my 'spouses' who have children would place their importance before anyone who is merely a mate. So would I.
 

L_Lynn

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Posts
514
Media
111
Likes
101
Points
263
Location
Oregon
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Straight, 10% Gay
Gender
Female
I came back to clarify and found more!

Interesting. Many women need a dvd or learning curve to be more open. For some reason they think that if they are open sexually to their significant other that they are a slut or dirty!! Which is what a man wants from his woman!! And a man thinks that if he shows what he totally wants he is a pervert or something!
This is why I feel drawn to helping women be more confident sexually. The "dirty" part goes back to the story of Adam and Eve. Basically, a whole lot of religion induced hang-ups that affect both sexes.

Makes me wonder what will happen with the over-abundance of Chinese males in the next 20 years.....So religious and social mores are rooted in biology and aren't constructs created by humans? I think we owe more to religious and social norms than biology for our current social behaviours.
The prediction for the over-abundance of young men in China is an increase in crime, among other problems, and an increase in homosexuality, which might be good for any Chinese closet gays. Last I heard the government was trying to entice more women to China so they don't have a mass emigration of their men. (My housemate is Chinese so I get to hear about these things!)

As far as religious and social mores, doesn't it make sense that they be rooted in something people already know? Think about how early Christianity converted pagans by incorporating celebrations and traditions they already held. And don't the most effective lies contain a kernel of truth? While we owe (or blame) Mother Culture for our sexual repression, there was a basic biological need going on first.


I will never gainsay the parental instinct a man feels toward his own children. Those of my 'spouses' who have children would place their importance before anyone who is merely a mate. So would I.

Ditto.
 

D_Phallus P Phyllum

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Posts
179
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
103
As far as religious and social mores, doesn't it make sense that they be rooted in something people already know? Think about how early Christianity converted pagans by incorporating celebrations and traditions they already held. And don't the most effective lies contain a kernel of truth? While we owe (or blame) Mother Culture for our sexual repression, there was a basic biological need going on first.

Yes, it comes back to the ever-unresolved nature/nurture debate. How much of this behavior has arisen from biological, evolutionary pragmatism, and how much from our cultural neuroses, and religious superstitions?

It's easiest to argue that the biology came first, and formed the foundation of the religious and cultural ideologies that followed.

But what trips this argument up is the taboo around homosexual behavior. This does not threaten parenting in any form, so why the problem? Many animals exhibit homosexual behaviors for various reasons, so - despite arguments to the contrary - it is natural, and yet there is such a wide-spread cultural repression. Evolutionary psychologists have even argued that male homosexuality may well have been beneficial to the protection of the early tribes, so I think this taboo must be a case of nurture over nature; i.e. neurotic social programming has won over natural sexual tendencies.

This then raises other issues, such as, 'why is sex purely for pleasure (as homosexual sex is - and masturbation for that matter) deemed by moralistic authoritarian institutions - such as the catholic church - to be a bad thing?', and, 'What relationship does this have to the taboo over female sexuality?'
 

B_spiker067

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Posts
2,163
Media
0
Likes
3
Points
183
While discussing this with a fellow poster it ...
Thoughts?

Hahaha :)

In THIS society the sexually repressed are the men.

Go ahead ask any woman which one wants her mate to have multiple mates (of the paid or unpaid kind). Ask the women which ones want to have multiple mates themselves.

The statistics will bear out that women control their sexuality and men's sexuality to quite a fair extent in THIS culture. But society is changing. I'm sure that soon enough this country will be one big swinger party.
 

badgirl22

Cherished Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Posts
731
Media
9
Likes
320
Points
328
Location
US
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
I believe women are becoming more in touch with their sexuality. Sexual health and well-being boutiques are popping up in mainstream America at a fast pace. My business partner and I are opening one (we already own a website) and the people who know are all wildly excited about it. We want to help women (and men - singels and couples) learn more about experiencing their sensual side - celebrating their sexuality. It's our goal to educate people and help them explore this side of their life. Our research shows people in general are throwing away old taboos and becoming more open to this. My gyno, named Dr. Shagg, I kid you not, is going to offer seminars on sexual health and well-being topics and is thrilled beyond belief that we are doing this. He says more and more women are coming to him asking for help. Many people want to open up and explore their sexuality but they sometimes need help or permission to do so.

Orgasms not only feel good but they actually are healthy for women (and men). Just like going to a gym and doing aerobic exercise is good for your heart, having an orgasm is good for your health too - it helps produce important hormones the body needs for many areas such as reproduction and even mental stability. If a woman isn't having sex or orgasms as she reaches menopause she will have a more difficult time with the hormone fluxuations and at the same time is more likely to lose her sex drive. If she is having lots of sex and orgasms, menopause will be easier as the very act of having sex creates estrogen the overies has stopped producing and it's the lack of estrogen that causes so many of the symptoms suffered at that time. She is likely to never lose her desire for sex either. I read a study (wish I had the reference darn it all- have it somewhere on this computer...) discussing how seman has medicinal qualities including the ability to fight depression - so ladies and gentlemen - swallow!

Here is a link that give 20 health reasons to have sex. Interesting read (and not the reference I was talking about above either - different one) Why Should We Have Sex? 20 Good Healthy Reasons - It's not only about reproduction - Softpedia

I will own two businesses that are counting on this being the case. Time will tell I suppose.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
Hahaha :)

In THIS society the sexually repressed are the men.

Not that I don't agree that male sexuality is misunderstood and even ignored, but the question is about "fear". Repression is only one response to fear, control, is another, as is avoidance.

And let's not forget that women may have just as much to fear from other women's sexuality. Especially if the "bitch" takes your man. :cool:
 

L_Lynn

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Posts
514
Media
111
Likes
101
Points
263
Location
Oregon
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Straight, 10% Gay
Gender
Female
If a woman isn't having sex or orgasms as she reaches menopause she will have a more difficult time with the hormone fluxuations and at the same time is more likely to lose her sex drive. If she is having lots of sex and orgasms, menopause will be easier as the very act of having sex creates estrogen the overies has stopped producing and it's the lack of estrogen that causes so many of the symptoms suffered at that time. She is likely to never lose her desire for sex either.

Just another reason why nature has us hitting our sexual peak just prior to menopause. I always considered it my body's last chance to reproduce, but from what you just said, it's also the best way to go through the process. Further proof to me why we need to listen to our bodies more. Nature has a way of giving us what we need.
 

badgirl22

Cherished Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Posts
731
Media
9
Likes
320
Points
328
Location
US
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Just another reason why nature has us hitting our sexual peak just prior to menopause. I always considered it my body's last chance to reproduce, but from what you just said, it's also the best way to go through the process. Further proof to me why we need to listen to our bodies more. Nature has a way of giving us what we need.

It's this reason I ended my sexless marriage. Was terrified of hitting menopause while having zero sex. The thought of the rest of my life not wanting sex horrified me! In retrospect, the fact I lived without it for nearly 13 years horrifies me almost as much - what the heck was I thinking?!?!?!!!
 

dreamer20

Worshipped Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Posts
7,997
Media
3
Likes
23,779
Points
643
Gender
Male
I'm also quite surprised by your use of the word 'demonizing'. I have said nothing that demonizes females, nor have I been chauvinistically praising males...
We have been invited to provide thoughts as to why unrestricted female sexuality is feared in our culture - why it has been 'demonized' - and evolutionary psychology provides some reasons for why this might be.

Sorry about that. I understood that you were not being chauvinist and had only stated your opinion. In hindsight I should should have worded my initial statement like this:

{QUOTE}"The reason you presented" for demonizing the female and her offspring is a male chauvinist one as opposed to being biologically based darkhorse2008uk... In ancient times, even before the Abrahamic religion was founded, matriarchal rule was supplanted by patriarchal rule and male chauvinism. Thus in today's society, which is both patriarchal and influenced by this religion, a sexual double standard exists in which a man is applauded for having sex with many women, but a woman is called a whore for having sex with many men. Ideally she should remain a virgin until she is married. I refer to this double standard as the Madonna-whore complex.

Urban Dictionary: madonna-whore complex{/QUOTE}


Genesis 38 illustrates the above double standard at work in the ancient world. The married male, Judah, has concubines, widows, male and female prostitutes and slaves to lawfully have sex with. In contrast the widow Tamar, who did as she pleased sexually, suffered the accusation of playing the whore, bearing a child of whoredom, and the looming penalty of being burnt alive once she became visibly pregnant.
 
Last edited:

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
Good example, dreamer. And you will find similar in many non-semitic cultures too.

It's horrible to confront the sad truth that fear of female sexuality, as well as homosexuality, bothstem from their threat to control of humans as breeding stock. No offspring at all if you are both homo and faithfully so. Unsure whose offspring is hers if the woman has more than one male.

Earlier was talk of women wanting a monogamous relationship in order to ascertain support for her offspring. This is greatly undercut by the use of females for their labor in most traditional cultures. Letting them get an education too interferes with their value as servants. Plus, if you let them own their own property, they might give it to a child who is not one of yours!

Let's not be shy about these, the economic realities that cut across our nice little cultural constructs.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
Let's not be shy about these, the economic realities that cut across our nice little cultural constructs.

I am financially capable of having ten wives, having children as often as they like. Should these facts cut across our constructs?

If one leaves, let her take a tenth. If I have one, she takes half. Seems like a shit deal to me.
 
Last edited:

D_Phallus P Phyllum

Experimental Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Posts
179
Media
0
Likes
4
Points
103
{QUOTE}"The reason you presented" for demonizing the female and her offspring is a male chauvinist one as opposed to being biologically based
{/QUOTE}

I disagree with this. I'm not sure you correctly understand what the term 'male chauvinist' actually means from your use of it here. A 'chauvinist' is one who is blindly patriotic or supportive of a belief or cause; a 'male chauvinist' is therefore anyone (male or female) that blindly believes in the superiority of males.

Chauvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The view I am presenting is not 'male chauvinist', as it is not portraying males as in any way superior or more admirable than females. The evolutionary psychological perspective tends to view both males and females as fundamentally mechanistic survival engines, in that they are primarily motivated by the need to ensure the continuation of their own genetic heritage; neither is portrayed admirable from this perspective; both are equally seen as being enslaved by their biology.

If what you meant to say was that the view I am presenting is androcentric (i.e. male orientated) then I am more inclined to agree, however, the hub of the argument concerns the idea that paternal certainty provides a more effective survival strategy, since the father of that child - as well as the mother - would be motivated to protect and support that child. Conversely, when the paternity is in dispute, there is no such certainty of a male input into that child's well being, and the survival chances decrease.

Given these biological fundamentals, it can be seen that an incentive would develop for females to be - or at least appear to be - more sexually reserved, hence the taboo surrounding the idea of unreleased female sexual activity.
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
There's a lot more primates than big cats. The Alpha male kills all the previous guy's offspring.

Best to live in a co-operative clan, fall asleep after a good fuck and not care if she goes off after another one.