The Gay Delusion

gballs

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I like sex. I prefer sex with women but I still enjoy it with men. Men are way easier to bed. Therefore, when I have the urge and I am lazy, I head to men. If men weren't so easy, I probably would be categorized as completely straight I guess. Therefore, my sexual inclusiveness is not my fault, it is the fault of all you slutty men. Case closed.
 

D_Alec_Baldtwins

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You know up until this point every other poster has been very amicable and kept personal attacks to a minimum, I at no point said that I was uncomfortable with people's reasons for having sex, and I resent being called "simple-minded" and "narrow-minded" in case you didn't notice dude, I actually advocated for the spectrum idea in my earlier posts. So don't start acting like i'm some kinda bigot or something because whenever the phrase "I don't give a fuck" is used, obviously you give a fuck (unless your ordering pizza or something, lol)and your I think its clear your projecting somekind of anger on me for something you take issue with. I'm not trying to judge or attack anybody so relax man. :rolleyes:

I think you need to go back and read the title of your thread, as well as your first post, for example:

What I'm referencing is the guys who say that they are straight and then looking for jerk off buddies or someone to blow and still maintaining that they are straight. WTF?

That somehow strikes you as less obnoxious? And saying that a guy is gay simply because he jacked off or took a blowjob from another guy or even gave one is laughable, and about as simple-minded as it gets. He might well be gay, but he isn't necessarily. I mean, a man or a woman who performs a sexual act with a member of the same sex every once in a while simply for the kicks, and with complete emotional detachment and no desire for any emotional connection is full-on gay? Lol. Really?

When is a vegetarian no longer a vegetarian? If he eats a piece of turkey once a year at Thanksgiving, is he no longer a vegetarian? What about twice a year - Thanksgiving and Christmas, now is he no longer a vegetarian? Oh, what if he also has BBQ at Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day, but eats no animal products the other 360 days a year - is he NOW no longer a vegetarian? What if he only eats the meat to be polite, but doesn't really like it, or if he was at a meal where every dish was made with some sort of animal product? You tell me - when is he no longer a vegetarian? And somehow, people think the question is less ludicrous just because it involves sex...
 
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Matthew

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We all tend to universalize our own experience.

For those of us who are "100%ers" (both gay and straight), it can feel inconceivable that anyone could have had a feeling or an experience that apparently contradicts that 100%, and yet still call themselves completely gay or straight. We so often hear people claim that a man who has ever had a sexual experience with another man should not call himself straight, without awareness of the assumptions and contradictions which underlie that statement.

For bisexuals (who I believe make up the majority of humanity if you include all the gradations), it can seem inconceivable that someone is not at least a little attracted to both sexes, subconsciously or whatever. But by the same token, they're actually projecting something about THEMSELVES. I definitely believe there is, in fact, a significant number of people who are not at all attracted to one sex or the other. Me, for example. And among straight guys (in my very non-universal experience, lol) they seem easy to pick out - they're the ones who present as uninterested in sex with men, but who also aren't all defensive and freaked out about it.

But people are correct that all of this gets mixed up by the fact that people do often plain old lie about their sexual orientation. Looking at LPSG alone we can all see lots of guys who say they're straight when they're clearly actually gay and more often bi. However as I see it, this fact does not contradict what I said above: in addition to some people simply being untruthful about their sexual orientation, there really ARE gray areas around straight and gay which can't be honestly and meaningfully lumped into bisexuality; AND, there are also honestly people who have not and never will have an honest sexual desire for one gender or the other.

Bottom line: If we want to actually understand human sexuality, we first have to understand that our personal experience (and likely our conception) of sexual orientation is NOT universal.
 

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I think you need to go back and read the title of your thread, as well as your first post, for example:



That somehow strikes you as less obnoxious? And saying that a guy is gay simply because he jacked off or took a blowjob from another guy or even gave one is laughable, and about as simple-minded as it gets. He might well be gay, but he isn't necessarily. I mean, a man or a woman who performs a sexual act with a member of the same sex every once in a while simply for the kicks, and with complete emotional detachment and no desire for any emotional connection is full-on gay? Lol. Really?

When is a vegetarian no longer a vegetarian? If he eats a piece of turkey once a year at Thanksgiving, is he no longer a vegetarian? What about twice a year - Thanksgiving and Christmas, now is he no longer a vegetarian? Oh, what if he also has BBQ at Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day, but eats no animal products the other 360 days a year - is he NOW no longer a vegetarian? What if he only eats the meat to be polite, but doesn't really like it, or if he was at a meal where every dish was made with some sort of animal product? You tell me - when is he no longer a vegetarian? And somehow, people think the question is less ludicrous just because it involves sex...
Honestly I realized the title of the thread was pretty bad after the fact but I thought it sounded pretty cool (like the part in Tropic Thunder when Ben Stiller says "I'm a Rooster Illusion.") so apologies for that.

I said it before and I'll say it again I think I've made it clear I'm arguing for the spectrum rather than labels. As for arguing they are "Full on gay" that's not something I did, I've been arguing they aren't full on straight. Granted they might not be full-on gay but I think it's ridiculous to act as if the behavior is not homosexual on a physical level, regardless of emotional investment.

As for your vegetarian analogy, there's something inherently wrong with it that i'll point out shortly. Firstly however, they are still vegetarians of course, but they are also hypocrites if they eat meat out of convienence and/or a desire to be polite and food unlike sex, is not riddled with "by-products" you can't sleep with a man or woman and then end up touching a guy's junk a bit (unless it's a 3-way but in this analogy sex is like a singular meal). As to why it's a flawed analogy, when would you ever have sex with someone of the sex your not attracted to in order to "be polite"? Sex unlike food isn't something offered up to you that you have to accept to keep in someone's good graces (at least not in the same way as food would be).

As to my first post, the "wtf?" is in reference to the hypocrisy of the behavior, not the behavior itself, also once again, you've started the personal insults, call me close-minded or stubborn, but calling me simple-minded is uncalled for, having a differing view point on an issue doesn't make me an idiot, and also I never said your posting was obnoxious, but I see you said mine was. I'm trying to keep things civil, I could start throwing passive-aggressive insults out too, but I won't. :biggrin1:

I think Matthew's post above mine basically reiterates (and probably better eloquates) the points i've been trying to make).
 
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D_Jess_Kilme

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It's amazing how a very simple point is so easily buried. All the OP said is that it's strange that guys who claim to be "straight" have sex lives that are NOT straight. Simple point. It's extremely simple. Why does it get buried?

Hey bud, you do much of the burying yourself.

I am puzzled why some guys take obvious pleasure in trying to call out others for how they self identify their sexuality!

The obvious reason why there is ambivalence in interpreting sexuality on this site is because of the options presented. I chose to be 90% straight and 10% gay only because that more or less represent where I might be on the scale in terms of my own experience and activity.

In reality I am 0% straight and 0% gay.

IAM not straight because I do get turned on by men.

I am not gay because I cannot identify with much of the ideology and politics of being gay - in much the same way that some people do not self identify as republican or democrat. This choice has nothing to do with actual physical sex.

Also, I am simply a man who likes to have erotic experiences with other men.
 

D_Jess_Kilme

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This whole concept of a person being a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" is a fairly recent construct. In fact these terms did not even exist prior to the Victorian Era. Humans have always been inherently bisexual with varying degrees of sexual attraction towards one sex or another.

One reason why so many men do not want to identify with the gay or bi labels, despite of their same sex activity, is because these labels have come to represent a lot more than a simple physical sexual activity between men.

Both gay and bi have taken on a whole pantheon of political, cultural and social meanings that many men do not and can not internalize. Many of these men, rightly wrongly, perceive that these labels diminish their "masculinity", whatever that may mean.

I am simply a man who also likes cock play, as I like ball play, boat play or gun play. I am nothing else. Full stop.
 
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As to my first post, the "wtf?" is in reference to the hypocrisy of the behavior, not the behavior itself, also once again, you've started the personal insults, call me close-minded or stubborn, but calling me simple-minded is uncalled for, having a differing view point on an issue doesn't make me an idiot, and also I never said your posting was obnoxious, but I see you said mine was. I'm trying to keep things civil, I could start throwing passive-aggressive insults out too, but I won't. :biggrin1:

I think Matthew's post above mine basically reiterates (and probably better eloquates) the points i've been trying to make).



Well said!
It's interesting to read all these different opinions and the way other people react. As if a revolutionary theory has just been launched and disturbed the peace and quiet of everyday life in the conservative part of American society. But the subject is not new, far from that. Read Homosexuality in ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and you will know what I mean.
 

B_henry miller

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I don't bury anything. I UN-buried the original question: Why do guys on this forum who are so obviously NOT straight refer to themselves as "straight"?

The answer is never given, because people are too afraid of it: Guys who are not straight but who claim to be straight are suffering from "internalized homophobia."

Such guys then like to turn the tables and say that people like myself and the OP -- people who are only pointing out the obvious -- are homophobic.

Hey bud, you do much of the burying yourself.
 

D_Jess_Kilme

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I don't bury anything. I UN-buried the original question: Why do guys on this forum who are so obviously NOT straight refer to themselves as "straight"?

The answer is never given, because people are too afraid of it: Guys who are not straight but who claim to be straight are suffering from "internalized homophobia."

Such guys then like to turn the tables and say that people like myself and the OP -- people who are only pointing out the obvious -- are homophobic.

Here is your answer:

"One reason why so many men do not want to identify with the gay or bi labels, despite of their same sex activity, is because these labels have come to represent a lot more than a simple physical sexual activity between men.

Both gay and bi have taken on a whole pantheon of political, cultural and social meanings that many men do not and can not internalize. Many of these men, rightly wrongly, perceive that these labels diminish their "masculinity", whatever that may mean."
 

B_henry miller

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Here is your answer:

"One reason why so many men do not want to identify with the gay or bi labels, despite of their same sex activity, is because these labels have come to represent a lot more than a simple physical sexual activity between men.

Both gay and bi have taken on a whole pantheon of political, cultural and social meanings that many men do not and can not internalize. Many of these men, rightly wrongly, perceive that these labels diminish their "masculinity", whatever that may mean."

So, that makes it okay for them to use the "straight" label, despite the fact that the "straight" label itself carries a whole pantheon of political, cultural, and social meanings"? The first and most obvious meaning of "straight" is that you do not have sex with others of your own gender.

If they don't like the association of "gay" or "bisexual," then that's fine. Don't use those labels. But if you use the label "straight" all the while having sex with others of your own gender, then you are in effect a liar.

The simplest way to sum up your answer is that some bisexual men lie about their orientation because they do not want the stigma of being associated with the LGBT community. It's that simple. Doesn't take four fuckin pages to figure this out!
 

D_Jess_Kilme

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So, that makes it okay for them to use the "straight" label, despite the fact that the "straight" label itself carries a whole pantheon of political, cultural, and social meanings"? The first and most obvious meaning of "straight" is that you do not have sex with others of your own gender.

If they don't like the association of "gay" or "bisexual," then that's fine. Don't use those labels. But if you use the label "straight" all the while having sex with others of your own gender, then you are in effect a liar.

The simplest way to sum up your answer is that some bisexual men lie about their orientation because they do not want the stigma of being associated with the LGBT community. It's that simple. Doesn't take four fuckin pages to figure this out!

Correct, correct and correct
 

1Cody

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What was the one that said 90% of all young boys jack off, and the other 10% are lying about not doing it? The times we live in seem much more permissive and the true 100%s are probably very rare.
 

D_Jess_Kilme

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So, that makes it okay for them to use the "straight" label, despite the fact that the "straight" label itself carries a whole pantheon of political, cultural, and social meanings"? The first and most obvious meaning of "straight" is that you do not have sex with others of your own gender.

If they don't like the association of "gay" or "bisexual," then that's fine. Don't use those labels. But if you use the label "straight" all the while having sex with others of your own gender, then you are in effect a liar.

The simplest way to sum up your answer is that some bisexual men lie about their orientation because they do not want the stigma of being associated with the LGBT community. It's that simple. Doesn't take four fuckin pages to figure this out!

Henry, let's keep this civil.

The fact of the matter Is that there are many guys who DO suffer from internalized homophobia.

It is also a fact that many guys prefer to present themselves as "straight", despite some level of same sex activity, because they cannot identify with the full spectrum of what the terminology of "gay" or "bi" represents. They more closely associate with what the term "straight" stands for, hence they call themselves straight. These men may also claim that the gay or bi communities do not have a monopoly on same gender sexual activity. The problem is that here on LPSG the options for self identification is limited.

As Matthew remarked in an earlier post, there is a lot of grey areas around the labels gay, straight and bi.

My view is that the labels are far too simplistic to capture the full spectrum of male sexuality, hence this somewhat heated debate.

At the very least, does it really matter how an individual chooses the see him or herself?



At the very least, you should accept that

Is that right?

The statements earlier in this thread, which addressed the rigidity of the labeling of sexual orientation, starts to identify the real problem.
 

D_Chocho_Lippz

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Firstly, I draw a distinction between same-sex activities and same-sex orientation. Doing something "gay" doesn't mean that either partner is gay, anymore than if a gay guy has sex with a woman it makes him straight (or even bisexual). So, some gay men are just as confused about thinking that gaysex= gay orientation as some straight men are.

So, for me (and from my doctoral research) I see no contradiction if a soi-disant or self-styled straight man says that he wants to mastubate or have oral sex or even fuck with another man.

Secondly. (also from my research), I do not regard sexual orientation labels as very helpful and they certainly are not mutually exclusive categories for most people - whatever they may claim. Humans (as with so many other species) are sexual and under the right circumstances can enjoy sexual activities (full stop) with either sex. The main reasons for not doing so are cultural, religious, societal, psychosocial injunctions and disapproval.

Similar variables certainly play a part in determining how comfortable people are about nudity. Nudity for me is not particularly erotic or sexual, per se. It is only sexual or arousing if the general context is one where I can hope or expect some sexual act to occur.
I agree.

I think that there is a difference between sexual preference and emotional preference. Just because you like a certain sexual act doesn't mean that you are "gay." I think that this is especially true of men since we are able to for the most part separate physical sex with emotional sex.

For instance - prostate stimulation. On it's surface, prostate stimulation should be able to enjoyed by any man. However, to do it you have to do it anally. Because society deems anything anal to be gay... it makes things confusing. You are doing it because you like the feeling - not because of a gender preference. But this is just one example.

I don't really believe in sexual orientation absolutes either. How many of us change who we are a bit, to include out sexual openness (or closedness) when drinking? Probably a few of us. Again, this goes along with the point made by sykray above.
 

D_Chocho_Lippz

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The simplest way to sum up your answer is that some bisexual men lie about their orientation because they do not want the stigma of being associated with the LGBT community. It's that simple. Doesn't take four fuckin pages to figure this out!
Then how would we explain how one of my gay friends who is fully in the LGBT community (he DJs, promotes, and attends all LGBT events in the area) has a problem telling his gay friends that he likes women too (or at least the thought of them)?

He's already squarely in the community, but he has a problem saying that he wouldn't mind having a woman from time to time either.

PS - He says that he is 5% straight and 95% gay.
 

B_henry miller

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In other words, labels don't work for these guys. So, then, why use them? Why not have NO labels?

It's having your cake and eating it too when they say, "The label system doesn't work. And, by the way, I'll choose the label with the most cultural privilege, even though my sexual activity does not honestly fit."

Trust me. There are some men out there who claim a straight identity and who ARE straight. I say "out there" because for the most part they are not on this forum.

It is also a fact that many guys prefer to present themselves as "straight", despite some level of same sex activity, because they cannot identify with the full spectrum of what the terminology of "gay" or "bi" represents. They more closely associate with what the term "straight" stands for, hence they call themselves straight. These men may also claim that the gay or bi communities do not have a monopoly on same gender sexual activity. The problem is that here on LPSG the options for self identification is limited.
 

derrick10

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Soo, your on a Large Penis website,with your dick out in your hand,friends with other guys with pics of their dicks is in their hand. and you label yourself straight. So If you do it then whats wrong with the others who do it>
 

B_henry miller

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One problem here is the virtual invisibility of bi-sexuality. Something the straight community and gay community have in common is that both deny that bi-sexuality even exists at all.

Then how would we explain how one of my gay friends who is fully in the LGBT community (he DJs, promotes, and attends all LGBT events in the area) has a problem telling his gay friends that he likes women too (or at least the thought of them)?

He's already squarely in the community, but he has a problem saying that he wouldn't mind having a woman from time to time either.

PS - He says that he is 5% straight and 95% gay.