The Gay Delusion

[B_Hung Jon]

This has been an interesting discussion but I prefer to speak about it all from my own life experience and what guys, who are my friends actually do. As I've said before, I've had drunk buddies come on to me big time at parties when they think no one else sees them. It's a game of sorts. They try to kiss me, grope me, pull me toward them and eventually are squeezing my butt. Some have gone so far as to try to pull off my jeans and just go for my dick. Yes, and they all think of themselves as completely straight. I don't mind the whole thing because they're drunk, and I can just brush off their behavior as poor judgement and push them away. But the reality is still there. I've also had buddies try to feel my dick when I was sleeping (which freaks me out BTW). They follow it up with some lame excuse. To me this is all internalized homophobia which doesn't allow men to explore their sexual desires in an open and healthy way. And yes, all the cultural baggage that comes being perceived as gay or bi is just not worth it to these guys. When I have challenged guys' groping behavior after the fact, they usually pretend that they don't remember or were too drink. Luckily a few of my friends have actually acknowledged the truth and have either apologized or admitted to some sexual attraction.

 

[B_henry miller]

To me this is all internalized homophobia which doesn't allow men to explore their sexual desires in an open and healthy way. And yes, all the cultural baggage that comes being perceived as gay or bi is just not worth it to these guys. When I have challenged guys' groping behavior after the fact, they usually pretend that they don't remember or were too drink. Luckily a few of my friends have actually acknowledged the truth and have either apologized or admitted to some sexual attraction.

In this society, when you are "gay" or "bi-sexual" your sexual orientation becomes your identity. It becomes your defining characteristic. Larger society thinks that sex is all that matters for gays and bi-sexuals.

Straight people, by contrast, are allowed to actually be human beings. Sexuality is only a part of who they are.

Could this be yet another reason that men who exhibit bi-sexual activity and tendencies want to cling to the "straight" label?

 

[D_Jess_Kilme]

If A straight guy can play with his own cock without being labelled gay or bi why can he not play with a buddy's cock without being labeled gay or bi?

Both cocks are after all male and both activities same gender sexual activities.

Every time a man jacks himself off he is having sex with a man. Not so?

I mention this purely to demonstrate that sexual identity is much more complex than the gay/bi/straight mafia would like you believe.

Gender identity is not an exact science! Let people be what they think they are!

 

[D_Jess_Kilme]

In this society, when you are "gay" or "bi-sexual" your sexual orientation becomes your identity. It becomes your defining characteristic. Larger society thinks that sex is all that matters for gays and bi-sexuals.

Straight people, by contrast, are allowed to actually be human beings. Sexuality is only a part of who they are.

Could this be yet another reason that men who exhibit bi-sexual activity and tendencies want to cling to the "straight" label?

Now you make absolute sense Henry! Unfortunately this is the sad truth.

 

[D_Chocho_Lippz]

One problem here is the virtual invisibility of bi-sexuality. Something the straight community and gay community have in common is that both deny that bi-sexuality even exists at all.

I don't think this is entirely true. Some do, of course... but not all. I think it's the flock mentality. Everyone wants everyone to be in the flock and anyone outside the flock seems weird.

Straight guys say, I can't believe you're gay when you've never tried pussy.

Gay guys say, I can't believe you're straight when you've never had a man such your cock.

To have the "best of both worlds" seems like cheating to some, on some sort of subconscious level. But again, I think we are back to the whole physically sexual versus emotionally sexual.

 

[B_henry miller]

If A straight guy can play with his own cock without being labelled gay or bi why can he not play with a buddy's cock without being labeled gay or bi?

Because, as you say, it's his own.

 

[swedish fish88]

This has been an interesting discussion but I prefer to speak about it all from my own life experience and what guys, who are my friends actually do. As I've said before, I've had drunk buddies come on to me big time at parties when they think no one else sees them. It's a game of sorts. They try to kiss me, grope me, pull me toward them and eventually are squeezing my butt. Some have gone so far as to try to pull off my jeans and just go for my dick. Yes, and they all think of themselves as completely straight. I don't mind the whole thing because they're drunk, and I can just brush off their behavior as poor judgement and push them away. But the reality is still there. I've also had buddies try to feel my dick when I was sleeping (which freaks me out BTW). They follow it up with some lame excuse. To me this is all internalized homophobia which doesn't allow men to explore their sexual desires in an open and healthy way. And yes, all the cultural baggage that comes being perceived as gay or bi is just not worth it to these guys. When I have challenged guys' groping behavior after the fact, they usually pretend that they don't remember or were too drink. Luckily a few of my friends have actually acknowledged the truth and have either apologized or admitted to some sexual attraction.

I'm in the military , and I see stuff like this all the time. Guys who are all about pussy, get drunk and take pictures of each with their head in another guys lap, or saying almost violently homophobic stuff to each other, and then see the one guy who is gay and out and call him a fag. It's sad.

 

[B_henry miller]

I'm in the military , and I see stuff like this all the time. Guys who are all about pussy, get drunk and take pictures of each with their head in another guys lap, or saying almost violently homophobic stuff to each other, and then see the one guy who is gay and out and call him a fag. It's sad.

I hate to put it this way, but is the military really known for a lot of highly intelligent people? Before people jump all over me -- I have relatives in the military; I know there are some intelligent people in there. But from what I've heard, the military is often the bottom of the barrel, people who couldn't get into college, etc. ("Bottom 10% of last year's graduating class headed to Iraq." ~ The Onion.)

 

[swedish fish88]

I hate to put it this way, but is the military really known for a lot of highly intelligent people? Before people jump all over me -- I have relatives in the military; I know there are some intelligent people in there. But from what I've heard, the military is often the bottom of the barrel, people who couldn't get into college, etc. ("Bottom 10% of last year's graduating class headed to Iraq." ~ The Onion.)

Yes and no. You'll always get your fair share of idiots in any profession, but its good to remember that smart doesn't always equal good. I've met a lot of smart people who were also the most cynically jaded trolls i have ever known.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

In this society, when you are "gay" or "bi-sexual" your sexual orientation becomes your identity. It becomes your defining characteristic. Larger society thinks that sex is all that matters for gays and bi-sexuals.

Straight people, by contrast, are allowed to actually be human beings. Sexuality is only a part of who they are.

Could this be yet another reason that men who exhibit bi-sexual activity and tendencies want to cling to the "straight" label?

What I have experienced with some friends of mine lately is that even though I feel uncomfortable if they're attempting to jump my bones while drunk, I point out to them that I care about them and respect them, even though I don't want to make out with or have sex with them. I think letting guys down gently when they're having these moments of intense attraction is a way to help alter their mindset. If I treat my homophobic buddies with love while they're behaving inappropriately, I think it really becomes a learning moment for them. Having a calm attitude helps the whole situation for us all.

 

[Smaccoms]

What I have experienced with some friends of mine lately is that even though I feel uncomfortable if they're attempting to jump my bones while drunk, I point out to them that I care about them and respect them, even though I don't want to make out with or have sex with them. I think letting guys down gently when they're having these moments of intense attraction is a way to help alter their mindset. If I treat my homophobic buddies with love while they're behaving inappropriately, I think it really becomes a learning moment for them. Having a calm attitude helps the whole situation for us all.

I know what you mean, what someone is wigging out, wigging out yourself is what they want; they can continue to wig out about your wigging...literally. Saying or speaking quietly forces the opposing party to quiet down to hear you. Their list of reasons to wig out suddenly vanishes (because you're being chill and understandable, and how can they hate someone like that?)

After they get over their "OMG I'm gay!" experience (or whatever label) and work through all that shit, their next reaction to your calmness in the situation is "What the fuck, what do they have to be so amazing?" That opinion is totally worth it, because they're still obsessed with you, but in a much healthier fashion!

 

[Smaccoms]

Firstly, I draw a distinction between same-sex activities and same-sex orientation. Doing something "gay" doesn't mean that either partner is gay, anymore than if a gay guy has sex with a woman it makes him straight (or even bisexual). So, some gay men are just as confused about thinking that gaysex= gay orientation as some straight men are.

So, for me (and from my doctoral research) I see no contradiction if a soi-disant or self-styled straight man says that he wants to mastubate or have oral sex or even fuck with another man.

Secondly. (also from my research), I do not regard sexual orientation labels as very helpful and they certainly are not mutually exclusive categories for most people - whatever they may claim. Humans (as with so many other species) are sexual and under the right circumstances can enjoy sexual activities (full stop) with either sex. The main reasons for not doing so are cultural, religious, societal, psychosocial injunctions and disapproval.

Similar variables certainly play a part in determining how comfortable people are about nudity. Nudity for me is not particularly erotic or sexual, per se. It is only sexual or arousing if the general context is one where I can hope or expect some sexual act to occur.

This what I've been trying to tell people! The way I see it, Sexuality has at least three sub-categories:

Sexual Practices
Sexual Behavior
Sexual Orientation

The reason they can be separated is because they are different branches of the same subject, like the different parts of a car. Every part contributes something different for the greater good of burning fossil fuels into the atmosphere!

 

[Smaccoms]

Oh, well as to the rigidity in definiton, I use not wanting to do sexual acts with men as the benchmark for that, I realize there will be variations in what constitutes straight with different people. I was just struck by the (at least in my mind) contradiction between saying that your straight and then wanting to perform sexual acts with/on men. I don't think you can actualy qualify as straight if that's the case :/ bi-sexual or at least bi-curious maybe, but I think it does need a qualifier attached to it. I suppose the semantics is what bothers me about it mostly. As to the locker room thing there was one post someone had made somewhere in particular that I had in mind but I'm to lazy to dig it up
As to the sex with pre-op trannies, I'd have to say that'd be homosexual behavior by definition, maybe not emotionally but obviously physically despite appearances two men would be engaged in intercourse. Even post-op I'd have to question it (not the orientation of the participants, but whether or not it counts as women on man) but I think that's because I'm a bit of a prude

Qualify as straight? What is this a competition? That phrase tells me you view being straight as being special, important, and better than all other labels. There is no hierarchy for what orientation tops another: there is no competition to be the "most straight" or the "most masculine". I imagine this might be part of the reason the concept of sexuality in the public eye is confusing you.

*I have not read the entire thread; if this has come up already I apologize.

 

[Smaccoms]

"His" definition isn't rigid. "His" definition isn't even "his" definition. He is going by the standard defintion that is used in larger society. LPSG and other contexts stretch and redefine things as they see fit. But in larger society, "straight" guys are not viewed as entirely "straight" if they have sexual activity with other men. That's just the way it is. Don't blame him. Don't blame me. Don't shoot the messenger. So find the messenger and give him a piece of your mind if you have a problem with it.

Do you know where the standard societal definition comes from? Public opinion. I do not agree with public opinion. So whenever I encounter it, I attempt to form an argument against it to sway that opinion. If enough opinions are swayed, so is the public opinion and thus the standard societal definition. I believe that is what is going on here.

I do not belief sexual practices are concretely linked to sexual orientation, so I will attempt to argue against that opinion until I can sway it. Now, I'm not going to "bitch" at people for it; that accomplishes nothing. I attempt to debate the issue in a civil manner so that we may discuss and advance our own opinions in a healthy manner.

This is a subject which is highly important to me, and I like advancing my understanding of it.

TRY ME BITCH! :tongue:

 

[Smaccoms]

HM, I agree with you completely. I also have tried to stay away from the threads that are more polarizing but have not always been successful. If I even begin to question another guy's sexuality, there will be hell to pay. And that's true for guys who identify as straight as well as gay. There is something so personal and fundamental about sexuality that men (usually) are enable to discuss it in some rational and calm way. We seem to take even the most simple comment as challenging to our masculinity or our integrity ("you pussy, you wimp", etc). I have had gay guys on this site become furious at me for suggesting that they may have some bi tendencies, as if it would destroy their gay credibility. And of course straight guys are even more defensive in this area, to the point of getting into physical altercations about being called something other than straight. Many of us have seen this in our actual lives. Changing a whole society to reflect a more enlightened view is a huge task. I imagine it will happen over time but certainly not soon enough for me.

Attempting to broaden the gay/straight split is nigh impossible for a lot of people. The concrete and rigid connection between masculinity and heterosexuality is so strong (in men, typically due to social hierarchy), most cannot see beyond it. This is what's holding back an evolution of sexuality in terms of public opinion. For people to see the disconnect between sexual orientation and sexual practices, the previous connection mentioned needs to be broken first.
I think the problem is masculinity is so abstract and connected to different, more concrete concepts far out and in-between. It causes people to lose sight of the concept and have no idea of it's meaning or place in society. They therefore fall to the next best thing: hot women. It's a sad and simple thought process, but there it is...

 

[Smaccoms]

I think the simple fact is that sexuality is far more complex than we can realize.

For example, lately I am thinking a lot about the following.... It is commonly known that homophobic people are usually not sure about their sexuality; a huge segment of the heterosexual male population IS homophobic; this means a lot of straight guys who are heterosexual are apparently not too secure in that fact. In other words, maybe a lot of straight guys have bisexual tendencies and haven't accepted this yet.

Been reading a book about sexuality. It says it is a new concept to assume an identity based on the gender of the person you have sexual relations with. I wonder what it must've been like to live in a day when a guy could have sex with any gender and he was just a guy, "a man." lol "Sexuality" as we know it didn't come into existence until the 1800s.

I think what the book is referring to is that different societal standards create different societal definitions. The concept we have today in society for sexuality started (apparently) in the 1800s. Before that, sexuality most likely existed in a completely different format. Things slowly shift over time, and eventually slip into different formats.
This book sounds interesting. I've read one about americas development of sexuality over the 1900s, but the 1800s. I would like to take a look at it (when I have the time...)

 

[D_Jess_Kilme]

I think you guys have nailed this debate!

This thread should become the standard reference on the subject.

Firstly, I draw a distinction between same-sex activities and same-sex orientation. Doing something "gay" doesn't mean that either partner is gay, anymore than if a gay guy has sex with a woman it makes him straight (or even bisexual). So, some gay men are just as confused about thinking that gaysex= gay orientation as some straight men are.


So, for me (and from my doctoral research) I see no contradiction if a soi-disant or self-styled straight man says that he wants to mastubate or have oral sex or even fuck with another man.


Secondly. (also from my research), I do not regard sexual orientation labels as very helpful and they certainly are not mutually exclusive categories for most people - whatever they may claim. Humans (as with so many other species) are sexual and under the right circumstances can enjoy sexual activities (full stop) with either sex. The main reasons for not doing so are cultural, religious, societal, psychosocial injunctions and disapproval.

I agree.

I think that there is a difference between sexual preference and emotional preference. Just because you like a certain sexual act doesn't mean that you are "gay." I think that this is especially true of men since we are able to for the most part separate physical sex with emotional sex.

For instance - prostate stimulation. On it's surface, prostate stimulation should be able to enjoyed by any man. However, to do it you have to do it anally. Because society deems anything anal to be gay... it makes things confusing. You are doing it because you like the feeling - not because of a gender preference. But this is just one example.

I don't really believe in sexual orientation absolutes either. How many of us change who we are a bit, to include out sexual openness (or closedness) when drinking? Probably a few of us. Again, this goes along with the point made by sykray above.

We all tend to universalize our own experience.

For those of us who are "100%ers" (both gay and straight), it can feel inconceivable that anyone could have had a feeling or an experience that apparently contradicts that 100%, and yet still call themselves completely gay or straight. We so often hear people claim that a man who has ever had a sexual experience with another man should not call himself straight, without awareness of the assumptions and contradictions which underlie that statement.

For bisexuals (who I believe make up the majority of humanity if you include all the gradations), it can seem inconceivable that someone is not at least a little attracted to both sexes, subconsciously or whatever. But by the same token, they're actually projecting something about THEMSELVES. I definitely believe there is, in fact, a significant number of people who are not at all attracted to one sex or the other. Me, for example. And among straight guys (in my very non-universal experience, lol) they seem easy to pick out - they're the ones who present as uninterested in sex with men, but who also aren't all defensive and freaked out about it.

However as I see it, this fact does not contradict what I said above: in addition to some people simply being untruthful about their sexual orientation, there really ARE gray areas around straight and gay which can't be honestly and meaningfully lumped into bisexuality; AND, there are also honestly people who have not and never will have an honest sexual desire for one gender or the other.

Bottom line: If we want to actually understand human sexuality, we first have to understand that our personal experience (and likely our conception) of sexual orientation is NOT universal.

I perform sexual acts with men on occasion, and have since I was a teenager. I do it because it turns me on and because it feels good. But I don't, nor have I ever had even the slightest emotional connection with, or feeling of intimacy towards a man. I hate kissing a guy; I hate even the thought of it. The couple of times I tried it, it almost made me gag.

Love, intimacy, and a strong emotional connection is something I only have with women. When I'm in a relationship, the woman is my only sexual outlet, and I enjoy it immensely; it's intimate and fulfilling in a way that sex with a guy could never be. But when I'm not in a relationship, I'll stray over to the other side for sex once in a while, and it's horny and raw and a turn-on and gives me pleasure in an entirely different, but entirely hedonistic way. I guess to people of narrow mind, that makes me gay. And like I said, I don't give a fuck.

Human beings don't fit into neat little boxes, and that's a problem for many simple-minded individuals. Human sexuality is more complex than "straight", "bi", or "gay". Sexuality exists on a continuum, with "straight" and "gay" on opposite sides of that axis. I'm sure there are plenty of people who exist at those opposite extremes, but it's a good bet that many, many, people are somewhere in the middle, and it's all cool. Or at least it should be.

Guys

I respect where you come from but you must consider that male sexuality, and our understanding of it, has moved on/is moving on, beyond the stereotypes which have shaped our understanding over the past number of decades.

Your thinking is definitely valid when viewed against the definitions of the past. However, give the rapid escalation of men's self awareness, brought about in no small part by te information revolution of the past two or three decades (including by sites like this which now allows men the opportunity to test their thinking and perceptions in a safe environment), it is reasonable that men will start to challenge conventional wisdom.

While you are not expected to buy into every new nuance in this sexual revolution, we should be open to it.

I maintain that the three existing categories of male sexual categorisation of gay, bi and straight are no longer valid.

There is a revolution underway in the way that men see their own sexuality. Lets not fight it. By embracing it we will all hasten the day that society becomes more tolerant of what falls outside the "norm".

Labels belong on clothing, not on people.

What I have experienced with some friends of mine lately is that even though I feel uncomfortable if they're attempting to jump my bones while drunk, I point out to them that I care about them and respect them, even though I don't want to make out with or have sex with them. I think letting guys down gently when they're having these moments of intense attraction is a way to help alter their mindset. If I treat my homophobic buddies with love while they're behaving inappropriately, I think it really becomes a learning moment for them. Having a calm attitude helps the whole situation for us all.

 

[Smaccoms]

This is exactly what I was referencing. Jon here arbitrarily decided to group together straight men as only being straight until "The problem occurs when they are found out" and as those who worry about "fragile labels" because of how "difficult and painful" it would be to be outed as gay. As Henry mentioned the quoted poster seems to think all men are gay "Although I prefer that guys be honest about themselves, I can understand why they're (we're) not." I didn't check but i'm reasonably sure that everyone who responded didn't say they were gay (If "we" is meant to mean the gay community then obviously that's another matter). I think the poster above is caught up with the labels he mentions, if your worried about being called gay after carrying out gay behavior (in the imaginary scenario where your "immediately tagged" as such) then I think you as an individual (not the poster, just random anecdote guy) need to reconsider your values (i.e. be true to your self).

One thing to note is that you need to figure out who you are by yourself before you ca incorporate other people into the definition. Human Beings are social creatures, and as such self-identities exist in and out of societal standards (i.e. by yourself versus with other people). Where certain societal standards apply and with who is a matter of opinion, and is a part of this concept. Realizing this and incorporating it into your own identity somehow I belief is an excellent way to advance your understanding of yourself.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

This is exactly what I was referencing. Jon here arbitrarily decided to group together straight men as only being straight until "The problem occurs when they are found out" and as those who worry about "fragile labels" because of how "difficult and painful" it would be to be outed as gay. As Henry mentioned the quoted poster seems to think all men are gay "Although I prefer that guys be honest about themselves, I can understand why they're (we're) not." I didn't check but i'm reasonably sure that everyone who responded didn't say they were gay (If "we" is meant to mean the gay community then obviously that's another matter). I think the poster above is caught up with the labels he mentions, if your worried about being called gay after carrying out gay behavior (in the imaginary scenario where your "immediately tagged" as such) then I think you as an individual (not the poster, just random anecdote guy) need to reconsider your values (i.e. be true to your self).

Something I take issue with in the above post is "The majority of guys who identify themselves as "straight" don't go around telling everyone that they have on occasion had sex with other guys." I understand there's been some displeasure with the labels we are assigned in reference to sexuality but this is ridiculous, He's implying that the majority of straight men have had sex with other men. A debate (I was looking for insight but apparently it's become a debate) on the semantics of what to call your sexuality is fine, but I think this borders on absurd. It's a given that men differ on the degree of homosexual tendencies they have, that was never what I was arguing about, but to say that your actually having sex,jerking off with, or blowing other men and calling yourself straight is oxymoronic to me. I know people define themselves as pansexual bisexual,gay and other labels but the point I've been trying to make is that the use of labels when you perform sexual acts that contradict your predominant view of yourself with no acknowledgement of it as being contradictory is just all sortsa "wth?"

If the labels seem too "rigid" then
perhaps what many here have failed to consider is that they need to stop bending them, words have meaning that can change over time but "Straight" obviously=hetero, as I mentioned much earlier I think it'd be much more accurate to qualify things by saying bi-curious (or just plain curious) it leaves things open to your own interpretation.

Thickseven, sorry for the confusion. It must have been the way I expressed myself. What I was talking about was guys who actually have sex with other guys and who still identify as "straight". I wasn't referring to all straight guys. To me we talking here about a subset of men. For example the quote: "The majority of guys who identify themselves as "straight", don't go around telling everyone that they have on occasion had sex with other guys". It's obvious that I was referring to guys who actually have sex with other guys, not the vast majority of straight men who do not. I just happen to know many "straight" guys who fit into this subset so for me it isn't shocking when they reveal it.

I apologize for not making this more clear.

 

[B_henry miller]

This book sounds interesting. I've read one about americas development of sexuality over the 1900s, but the 1800s. I would like to take a look at it (when I have the time...)

This book says that anthropologists refer to a "time before sexuality." It says that the very concept of "sexuality" didn't come about until the 1800s. Prior to that, the idea of defining yourself based on your sexual activity did not exist. People defined sexual behavior; but it wasn't their identity. There weren't "gay people" and "straight people." What was important, in most situations, was male privilege, and that was maintained only if the male was the penetrator.