The Gay Delusion

CorsicanU

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it's rather childish to mock a man just for not wanting to be seen naked. why the hell is it such a big deal to some of you that they want to stay within their comfort zone?
that you're paying enough attention to them to even notice the 'towel dance' makes me think their discomfort is justified.
honestly, you think you're better than them just because you flop it out and thy don't? childish!

Great answer.
Men underestimate an individuals ability to see whats going on, i.e.-
who's checkin them out- whether or not that individual lets on
that he/she knows that someone IS either getting their
eyes full or sneaking inconspicuous glances that
are not so inconspicuous to a sensitive eye.

Some people are people watchers.
Some are watching for cocks and tits.
Some are listeners.
Some mind their own business because they just don't give a crap and need to get on with their day.

(This may be hard to believe given the focus of
this website and those of us who are members,
but there ARE men and women out there who
could not give a shit less as to what one has
swingin downstairs).

And some people DONT LIKE TO BE EYEBALLED for any reason, and that's their perogative.
A locker room is a changing area, but that does not have
to entail an obligatory strip tease for all those who
attend.

I, on the other hand, like to be looked at-
IF I'm fluffed out and hanging.
Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not.
When I'm not I look like someones baby and
then I'm doing a towel dance.
 
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B_Hung Jon

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I think you guys have nailed this debate!

This thread should become the standard reference on the subject.


Oh how I wish this were the case but it never happens! The same topics appear over and over again as with most websites. It's pretty much impossible to prune them down. Also new people are constantly joining and for them this may be a new topic and maybe one that they can learn something from. Of course after a while we all begin to repeat ourselves.
 

mandoman

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Great answer.
Men underestimate an individuals ability to see whats going on, i.e.-
who's checkin them out- whether or not that individual lets on
that he/she knows that someone IS either getting their
eyes full or sneaking inconspicuous glances that
are not so inconspicuous to a sensitive eye.

Some people are people watchers.
Some are watching for cocks and tits.
Some are listeners.
Some mind their own business because they just don't give a crap and need to get on with their day.

(This may be hard to believe given the focus of
this website and those of us who are members,
but there ARE men and women out there who
could not give a shit less as to what one has
swingin downstairs).

And some people DONT LIKE TO BE EYEBALLED for any reason, and that's their perogative.
A locker room is a changing area, but that does not have
to entail an obligatory strip tease for all those who
attend.

I, on the other hand, like to be looked at-
IF I'm fluffed out and hanging.
Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not.
When I'm not I look like someones baby and
then I'm doing a towel dance.

I wouldn't care. Sometimes, I wish you were my baby.
 

Spaghett

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Hey guys. I dont like pizza at all. But if someone wants to come over and eat a bunch of pizza with me that would be so delicious.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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After being here so long I can laugh at the fact that 100% straight means you can and do anything with the opposing gender. We ladies refer to it as LPSG straight when all reality it is heteroflexibility. LPSG is a great medium for men to explore their boundaries and be comfortable with things they might have only thought of or once tried and enjoyed but want to try again. Male sexuality is so rigid in comparison to how women are expected to be bisexual.

It's cute to think of Girls Gone Wild commercial or a frat house where women will make out when you cheer them on and give them enough beer first. But if guys were to do this they wouldn't be seen the same way again.

It's a societal issue that has considered gays to be more effeminate and straight men to be overtly macho. When reality tells us that men are just as likely to stray from the normal heterosexual norms as women are.

Until people stop seeing gay behavior as nasty, dirty and disgusting and value it as just as human as women who want to kiss a girl to try it or eat pussy to see what it's like or even play around with the same woman on the side.

Honestly, around here, I'd recommend if a guy doesn't want to be approached by men to not put 100% straight on their profile. It actually temps others who want to play around with someone who is seemingly just as "straight" as they are from contacting you to gain approval of their heteroflexibility.

And while I know I'm going to get a lot of hatorade for saying this, there is no doubt a phenomenon amongst those who are male and gay to really want to be the one guy that a straight guy was bending the rules for. It just makes a person feel really special to know that they talked that jock into a blowjob after a 6 pack.

It just is what it is around here. There is no changing it, nor is there a reason to. It's really more of an educational birds-eye view into human sexuality that is otherwise overlooked for the sake of the majority straight male population. It has something I'm sure to do with the need to be a straight, moral, procreating religious human being to see gay as disgusting if you happen to label yourself as a person who also likes to have sexual trysts with women.

I will venture to say to the person above me who said "If I had meat several times a year, would I still not be a vegetarian?" that to some hardcore vegetarians you would indeed NOT be one anymore. To some ovo-lacto vegetarians you are not a true vegetarian if you enjoy eggs and milk. So it's more of a complex perspective than you realize. It's just not that simple.

One can't help but notice there is more freedom to male sexuality around LPSG. One can only not help but notice there is something to gender and orientation bending that garners a lot of attention you'd not get if you didn't go out on a limb to "fool" others.

This is not to say that all who say they are 100% straight are trying to fool anyone, even themselves. But there is enough of that, too, going on to allow for a tad bit of confusion if you consider 100% to mean 100% of something.

I have to ask, how would 100% gay men feel about someone who claims to be 100% gay having sex a few times a year with a woman, eating pussy whenever the opportunity allows? Would they also not be given a raised brow by the 100% gay community? I believe in some, if not most circles they sure would.

Let me add the final touch to my point of view by saying this thread title was a play on the title of the book by Richard Dawkins called The God Delusion. It was a clever play on words to those who know the inspiration for it.
 
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B_henry miller

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Thoughtful post. I'll just add the following: if straight guys don't want to get messed with, they probably shouldn't join this site at all. In all honesty, I don't think "100% Straight" guys would be interested in this forum at all. I do think there are some men on here who do only have sexual relations with women, but if you read their posts you can see some "heteroflexibility" going on; you can see little bits of homoeroticism here and there. I'm not pointing fingers and I'm not condeming; I think it's beautiful. Just saying ... this forum is largely the domain of gay and bisexual men, and if a guy doesn't want to interact with or be approached by such men, it's probably best just not to join. :smile:

Honestly, around here, I'd recommend if a guy doesn't want to be approached by men to not put 100% straight on their profile.
 

thickseven

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"the title of the book by Richard Dawkins called The God Delusion. It was a clever play on words to those who know the inspiration for it."

Yeah. . . I haven't read that book, I wish I was clever enough to name the thread for that reason but it isn't the case. :/ So, how about we say I did when I didn't? :biggrin1:. . . . :frown1:
 

Tattooed Goddess

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"the title of the book by Richard Dawkins called The God Delusion. It was a clever play on words to those who know the inspiration for it."

Yeah. . . I haven't read that book, I wish I was clever enough to name the thread for that reason but it isn't the case. :/ So, how about we say I did when I didn't? :biggrin1:. . . . :frown1:

Bummer!

After all that educating you on the ways and why's of LPSG....no rebuttal? I was expecting to wake up to more than that!
 

Stiles

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We could always talk about The God Delusion. I've always liked a good barnie over religion. :biggrin1:
 

Tattooed Goddess

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Stile I am sure there are some great posts about it somewhere around here. I just never bothered to look while I was here (a year and a half ago) because I was not yet an Atheist. But I might just do a little search on them now to see what some of my fellow LPSGers believe in. So glad to see you posting here.
 

Smaccoms

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This book says that anthropologists refer to a "time before sexuality." It says that the very concept of "sexuality" didn't come about until the 1800s. Prior to that, the idea of defining yourself based on your sexual activity did not exist. People defined sexual behavior; but it wasn't their identity. There weren't "gay people" and "straight people." What was important, in most situations, was male privilege, and that was maintained only if the male was the penetrator.

I have a hard time believing this; it does not sound as if this conclusion was drawn from the appropriate perspective. I'm going to have to read this book now so that I may extrapolate why the author(s) have come to such a useless conclusion.
 
D

deleted3782

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I don't question it. I just know that if it weren't for straight guys on the hunt for a jack off partner I wouldnt get nearly as many chat requests as I do here in the chat room.
 

Bbucko

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This book says that anthropologists refer to a "time before sexuality." It says that the very concept of "sexuality" didn't come about until the 1800s. Prior to that, the idea of defining yourself based on your sexual activity did not exist. People defined sexual behavior; but it wasn't their identity. There weren't "gay people" and "straight people." What was important, in most situations, was male privilege, and that was maintained only if the male was the penetrator.

I have a hard time believing this; it does not sound as if this conclusion was drawn from the appropriate perspective. I'm going to have to read this book now so that I may extrapolate why the author(s) have come to such a useless conclusion.

I have to agree with Smaccoms here, though I haven't read the book either. Though the word homosexual was coined in the 19th century, sodomite had been around for-fucking-ever. In fact, sodomy defined people so precisely that it was a capital offense throughout the world, such as it still is in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It's my understanding that it wasn't so much which role a man chose (top, bottom or switch) that shielded him from prosecution as it was class. Aristocracy was exempt from most laws generally, but most especially from sodomy laws. It was everyone else who needed to worry about getting caught.
 

zero_ga

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Intresting take on things its a shame so many are not serious and not really want to talk, if they want to talk, TALK but it appears they have other things on the mind and couch then in some way rather than comming right out and saying it. I have read the book and like it from Richard, it is good solid reading and i like his hard hitting straight shooting style. He makes good points hard to argue with if you are reality based. Anyway each and every one of us is made up of Male and female traits, some are timid to show the female side traits even if they are proper for the situation for fear of being judged as wrong way of thinking by others. We have a long way to go in society to come to accept folks for what they really are and feal...... but on the good side we are so much better off than we were back in the 60s and earlier...... today is a brighter day better comunication education and desiminaton of information. I am so glad i am alive today and have places like this to visit.
 

B_henry miller

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I think this is actually common knowledge. The concept of "gay" is relatively new and it is not universal at all -- even in the present day.

This is one reason it is so hard for people to decide whether certain historical figures were gay or not: the concept didn't exist during the lives of some historical figures. I kind of laugh to myself when people say Shakespeare and Michelangelo and Da Vinci were gay, because the concept didn't exist at the time. Certainly, they likely had sex with men, but "gay" just wasn't a concept yet.

Maybe what is hard to believe is that ultimately sexuality really IS just "a concept." :smile:

I have a hard time believing this; it does not sound as if this conclusion was drawn from the appropriate perspective. I'm going to have to read this book now so that I may extrapolate why the author(s) have come to such a useless conclusion.
 

Smaccoms

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I think this is actually common knowledge. The concept of "gay" is relatively new and it is not universal at all -- even in the present day.

This is one reason it is so hard for people to decide whether certain historical figures were gay or not: the concept didn't exist during the lives of some historical figures. I kind of laugh to myself when people say Shakespeare and Michelangelo and Da Vinci were gay, because the concept didn't exist at the time. Certainly, they likely had sex with men, but "gay" just wasn't a concept yet.

Maybe what is hard to believe is that ultimately sexuality really IS just "a concept." :smile:

You seem to dismiss the importance of how sexuality evolved over the centuries through different societies because their self-identities did not revolve around who they have sex with (like it does for you apparently). This dismissal is incorrect due to the fact that sexuality was just as important during these times as it is today.
During this time period, having sex with men as a lifestyle was MOST DEFINITELY A SOLIDIFIED CONCEPT in society at large in Europe. The times that Michelangelo, Da Vinci, and other great artists lived in were defined by a great struggle. A classic struggle between famous artists and philosophers re-discovering Ancient Greek values and art against the Church going on crazed witch and sodomite hunts. Sexuality was most definitely a central concern to society at large during this time period. It may not have been thought of in the same context as it is today, but it was definitely there.
The fact that people can dismiss this entirely is due to looking at it from a modern perspective (see my last post).
Not that I'm trying to be mean, but the amount of ignorance on this topic in your response here baffles me, such a complete dismissal! The way sexuality was treated during these times is most definitely important to it's evolution over time. I do not understand your perspective...

I have to agree with Smaccoms here, though I haven't read the book either. Though the word homosexual was coined in the 19th century, sodomite had been around for-fucking-ever. In fact, sodomy defined people so precisely that it was a capital offense throughout the world, such as it still is in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It's my understanding that it wasn't so much which role a man chose (top, bottom or switch) that shielded him from prosecution as it was class. Aristocracy was exempt from most laws generally, but most especially from sodomy laws. It was everyone else who needed to worry about getting caught.

The term has it's origins in the Leviticus actually. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah at first had nothing to do with homosexual relations. Over time the original meaning was drastically altered. It occurred through the translations of the Leviticus and other sacred texts from dead languages; colloquial terms left without definitions found new meanings. Also, religious leaders took phrases out of context, and expanded on them from their own personal context. They spread these new sayings among their followers, and bits and pieces of it reached the bible and the Church all over the place.
As you can imagine, the original meaning of any religions drawing their sacred texts from the Leviticus have since been lost. Only through heavy study and research could it be pieced back together again (if at all). This is why one can say the term sodomite as referring to homosexual relations is a term which has nothing to do with the church and everything to do with the cuture(s) in which it developed and came from. Only, it inserted itself into the religion through complex pathways. Isn't funny how these things work?
 

B_henry miller

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http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Before-Sexuality-Premodern-History/dp/0745625231/

Sexuality in modern western culture is central to identity but the tendency to define by sexuality does not apply to the premodern past. Before the 'invention' of sexuality, erotic acts and desires were comprehended as species of sin, expressions of idealised love, courtship, and marriage, or components of intimacies between men or women, not as outworkings of an innermost self. With a focus on c. 1100–c. 1800, this book explores the shifting meanings, languages, and practices of western sex. It is the first study to combine the medieval and early modern to rethink this time of sex before sexuality, where same-sex and opposite-sex desire and eroticism bore but faint traces of what moderns came to call heterosexuality, homosexuality, lesbianism, and pornography.
 

Bbucko

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The term has it's origins in the Leviticus actually. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah at first had nothing to do with homosexual relations. Over time the original meaning was drastically altered. It occurred through the translations of the Leviticus and other sacred texts from dead languages; colloquial terms left without definitions found new meanings. Also, religious leaders took phrases out of context, and expanded on them from their own personal context. They spread these new sayings among their followers, and bits and pieces of it reached the bible and the Church all over the place.

As you can imagine, the original meaning of any religions drawing their sacred texts from the Leviticus have since been lost. Only through heavy study and research could it be pieced back together again (if at all). This is why one can say the term sodomite as referring to homosexual relations is a term which has nothing to do with the church and everything to do with the cuture(s) in which it developed and came from. Only, it inserted itself into the religion through complex pathways. Isn't funny how these things work?

It's my understanding that Sodom's actual sin was one of a lack of hospitality and only later was the meaning of Sodomy to mean same-sex penetration (or, even more broadly, non-reproductive sex regardless of the genders of the participants).

Translations are a huge deal to anyone conversant in more than one language. I speak/read/write English and French fluently (and enough Spanish to get by) and understand how subtlety of meaning can easily get lost in translation. Then, of course, there are the cultural biases that the translator imposes on a text, inevitably and most especially with religious books.

Anyone who insists that sexual normatives were assigned in the 19th century has obviously never read the Marquis de Sade, where one encounters every sort of sexual act ever conceived by mankind :wink:. His works were obviously meant to provoke a serious response from society and they responded by jailing him for the majority of his adult life.

I've yet to read a Sadian character who was exclusively opposite-sex oriented, though if one exists it's probably in Justine, which I haven't read in a bit now and is hazy in my mind. Philosophy in the Bedroom, 120 Days and Juliette are virtual odes to unfettered bisexuality and anal penetration. One can only imagine what was destroyed either by Napoleon or Sade's own family once he died :rolleyes:

I've frequently said that Sade is the best writer of unreadable books ever to have existed. Even now, in the 21st century there are things he wrote that remain completely, unspeakably unacceptable to civilization, yet I practically know them by heart. My own work pales in comparison, yet remains largely unpublishable; I've been chased off of/banned from different message boards merely for offering a link describing actual events conducted by consenting adults as I've chosen to describe them, usually in a Sadian voice.

There's also the work of John Rechy, which remains ghettoized and marginalized even today, though enormously influential to me, both as a man and as a writer. City of Night remains his masterpiece, but I'm currently rereading The Sexual Outlaw, which I found at a thrift store and am reading for the first time since the late 70s. Those two, along with Rushes and Numbers remain must-reads for anyone trying to understand how sexual orientation was perceived in the mid and latter parts of the 20th century. His entire bibliography is extraordinary.