THE gay lisp?

[PartitiveHiss]

I really hate the fact that this is constantly referred to as a lisp. It's not a fucking lisp for god's sake. Sibilance is not the same as lisping. Moreover, it is also about given emphasis upon words and intonation that bears no relation to lisping either.

Now, when it comes to this particular way of speaking, for some I do believe it is purposeful. It is camping it up, and we can all do it. But it's not true that all those with so called feminine traits in their voice do it on purpose.

As for myself, for all my life, I was deemed gay simply by my mannerisms and my speech. This is not to say that I am overly ostentatious or extravagant. I am not. But the so called femininity that is traceable in me was never done on purpose. Never was I willingly 'feminine'. It is just the way I am or was. How do I feel about it? I hate it. Hate it with such a passion I cannot express. I have tried so hard to analyse it, to get rid of it, but I just can't seem to. No matter how many times I record myself and listen to it, I can always trace it in me, and it is always this sibilance that I just can't seem to get rid of.

What is the nature of my hate of it? It's about self-hate. It's about learning from society generally that gay people are hated and taking it on board, internalising it. I hate it in myself precisely because it 'sounds gay'. I also hate it in other men for the same reason and because I hate it in myself.

 

[sxy_vince]

no, i'm saying that perhaps it started when they were kids.
but the lisp stuck, into adulthood.
i'm not saying they would be 'doing it' now.
but rather that it's how they learned to talk.
they could drop the babytalk act before they were ten, but have trained the lisp into their normal speach.
being a femme boy child can't be easy, so maybe they clung to 'cuteness' that would gain adult protection.
i'm talking about a habit they dropped as little kids.
the lisp is just a leftover.

but, yeah, most likely it's bullshit.
i'm making this up as i go along.

I'm not yet convinced that this hypothesis from Dolfette is correct, but it is a very clever hypothesis and I am impressed. In some ways, the "gay lisp" does sound to me like it is more babyish than womanlike, which would support your hypothesis. On the other hand, I know I jokingly imitate children to appeal to women's maternal instinct and I don't think it comes accross "gay lisp".

MR's hypothesis is also very good. It is all good food for thought.

Personally i think its a dramatic way of talking that has been a way to "stand out" and be flamboyant.

Maybe the truth is a combination of the two. They learn as a child that being "cute" helps them get attention (and survive) and this becomes a habit that they exagerate as they get older, especially when they want attention.

Here's another hypothesis: some gay people seem to rebel against a "pressure" to conform to heterosexual stereotypes. One way of rebelling is to eschew a traditional deep male voice and to go in the other extreme: ie we're here, we're queer, get uthed to it!

 

[sxy_vince]

As for myself, for all my life, I was deemed gay simply by my mannerisms and my speech. This is not to say that I am overly ostentatious or extravagant. I am not. But the so called femininity that is traceable in me was never done on purpose. Never was I willingly 'feminine'. It is just the way I am or was. How do I feel about it? I hate it. Hate it with such a passion I cannot express. I have tried so hard to analyse it, to get rid of it, but I just can't seem to. No matter how many times I record myself and listen to it, I can always trace it in me, and it is always this sibilance that I just can't seem to get rid of.

What is the nature of my hate of it? It's about self-hate. It's about learning from society generally that gay people are hated and taking it on board, internalising it. I hate it in myself precisely because it 'sounds gay'. I also hate it in other men for the same reason and because I hate it in myself.

Hey man, it sounds like you have had it tough - too tough. I have never been in your situation but I imagine it would be very upsetting. I wish I could say something to help, but not sure what to say.

I think it is common for people or minorities to actually internalise hate until it becomes self-hate. And I will add, with self-hate, people naturally become defensive against anything that looks like it might be further persecution. I think recognising your feelings as self-hate is a great achievement and is an important step towards feeling positive towards yourself.

If its any consolation, I don't hate gay people and if I meet you I am sure I would not hate you just for being (so-called) "feminine".

From the perspective of the thread discussion, it is interesting that you say that you cannot change your sibilance. It does suggest that it is either biological or entrenched at a young age.

 

[B_Stronzo]

The so-called "gay lisp" has been scientifically proved to be an indication of the superior intelligence of gay men.

Sibilance is not the same as lisping.

werd

 

[arktrucker]

Having lived in the major cities (NYC, Chicago, Miami, LA) and small towns, I've only found it in big cities where there are the gay neighborhoods. For me, it just seems all the big stereotypes are enhanced when you're in a gay bubble. Small town gay guys that are "feminine" are usually just quiet, shy, passive, nice...which I don't find that unattractive..

where big cities, they're bitchy, sarcastic with all the speech and mannerisms show up, like they're compensating for years or hiding and have something to prove that they're "proud". Also think that a lot of gay guys run from conservative areas to the big cities and just conform to try and fit in and the stereotypes are the easiest to conform to, cause it doesn't threaten the status quo.

I always got hassled for not being "gay" enough in big cities, not doing the partying, working out for performance and sports vs to just get laid. And since I was just the quiet stoic type got crap cause I didn't conform to the status quo. Usually just cause people always told me I had a quiet confidence in who I was and it makes people that are insecure feel more so. Least that's how older, wiser, been around the block gay guys in big cities always explained it to me.

I guess I'm going to be nailed to a cross when I make this analogy but here goes.
The lisp with gay men, the forced lisp actually is pretty much the same as any ethnic groups speaking when they get together. (putting asbestos suit on) For example African-Americans speaking to one another have a different manner of speach which is for the most part not understood by anyone who is not of the same group but when the need to speak clearly presents itself i.e. job, the speach is near perfect.

 

[PartitiveHiss]

Hey man, it sounds like you have had it tough - too tough. I have never been in your situation but I imagine it would be very upsetting. I wish I could say something to help, but not sure what to say.

I think it is common for people or minorities to actually internalise hate until it becomes self-hate. And I will add, with self-hate, people naturally become defensive against anything that looks like it might be further persecution. I think recognising your feelings as self-hate is a great achievement and is an important step towards feeling positive towards yourself.

If its any consolation, I don't hate gay people and if I meet you I am sure I would not hate you just for being (so-called) "feminine".

From the perspective of the thread discussion, it is interesting that you say that you cannot change your sibilance. It does suggest that it is either biological or entrenched at a young age.

Thanks for that.

 

[txquis]

I live in the south now, and I hear that "gay lisp" from straight guys here as well.

Not sure where it comes from, but that lighter, more feminine sound almost seems as if they copied the way their moms or sisters sounded in some way they might not even be aware of.

 

[cklover]

Yeth, I mean yes...that's a lisp. That other sharp, cuts-through-lead hisssssing 's' so many of us gay men have is usually referred to as a 'sibilant s'. I've always wondered how it comes about, too. At any rate, many, if not most, of the gay men I've heard it from may sound ultra-femme, but are usually quite aggressive and bold both personally and sexually...kind of paradoxical that it's considered so unmanly by so many. BTW, I often hear it coming from straight men, too....ever listen to Ryan Reynolds holding forth on his love for women with every 's' sssslightly sibilant and that high-pitched, slightly nasal tone?

 

[Rugbypup]

Interesting some are saying they've heard straight men with the say stereotypical 'gay lisp'. I never have.

YouTube - Ryan Reynolds Talks Deadpool

Despite Ryan Reynolds being incredibly attractive, I can actually hear a very slight trace of the gay lisp in his voice, if I listen hard enough, but no where never your average 'gay' man.

YouTube - Jim Bennet's Gay Voice

 

[dreamer20]

No one as of yet has claimed to hate the "gay lisp" or the people with the "gay lisp".

A number of people did claim to hate both the "gay lisp" and the men who possessed it in the lengthy "do non feminine gay men exist?" thread which has recently been deleted BTW:

http://www.lpsg.org/87799-do-non-effeminate-gay-men.html

And yes RugbyPup regardless of sexuality and physique some men sound effeminate. I guess that's the price some of mankind pays for carrying our female sex chromosomes.

sex chromosome - definition of sex chromosome by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[Rugbypup]

A number of people did claim to hate both the "gay lisp" and the men who possessed it in the lengthy "do non feminine gay men exist?" thread which has recently been deleted BTW:

http://www.lpsg.org/87799-do-non-effeminate-gay-men.html

And yes RugbyPup regardless of sexuality and physique some men sound effeminate. I guess that's the price some of mankind pays for carrying our female sex chromosomes.

sex chromosome - definition of sex chromosome by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Female sex chromosome?

Oh man... sex chromosomes determine your sex, not your sexuality. World of difference there matey.

YouTube - Is Homosexuality a Choice?

Best bet, sexuality is determined in the womb. Having an X chromosome as a man does not make you gay.

Furthermore, there is no gene or chromosome that determines accents or the way we speak. What's next a Brummi accent gene? A Mancunian accent gene?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzb7BanTuXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuUFzKojmA

There is an interesting idea that we learn certain behaviors over inheriting them. Memes over genes. Which brings us back to the 'gay lisp' being a learned trait, not a genetic expression. So again, why only effeminate gay men?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

 

[dreamer20]

there is no gene or chromosome that determines the way we speak.

You've never heard of cri du chat syndrome I see.:smile:


Cri du chat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


From genetic causes of speech disorders:

Genetic Causes

A new study recently published in the journal Nature has now established the importance of specific genes in speech disorders. A group in London led by Dr. Tony Monaco has done research that has lead to the identification of a specific gene on chromosome 7 necessary for proper speech production. They have designated this gene Speech1...

 

[teasedsilly]

Having lived in the major cities (NYC, Chicago, Miami, LA) and small towns, I've only found it in big cities where there are the gay neighborhoods. For me, it just seems all the big stereotypes are enhanced when you're in a gay bubble. Small town gay guys that are "feminine" are usually just quiet, shy, passive, nice...which I don't find that unattractive..

where big cities, they're bitchy, sarcastic with all the speech and mannerisms show up, like they're compensating for years or hiding and have something to prove that they're "proud". Also think that a lot of gay guys run from conservative areas to the big cities and just conform to try and fit in and the stereotypes are the easiest to conform to, cause it doesn't threaten the status quo.

I always got hassled for not being "gay" enough in big cities, not doing the partying, working out for performance and sports vs to just get laid. And since I was just the quiet stoic type got crap cause I didn't conform to the status quo. Usually just cause people always told me I had a quiet confidence in who I was and it makes people that are insecure feel more so. Least that's how older, wiser, been around the block gay guys in big cities always explained it to me.

Maybe if it's only present in gay neighborhoods and communities, it's socially acquired. Social groups often develop unique manners of speech, and I'm not sure how conscious it is. I think it would be a fascinating study, though, to find out when it began and possibly where.

By the way, I haven't noticed that the "gay lisp" or mannerisms seem particularly feminine. If a woman talked or behaved in the same way, it would not look or sound natural.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

YouTube - David Cross: Gay Voice

Yep, David Cross has it down. It's not really a "lisp". It's more like a form of speech that is dramatic, more high-pitched and affected. I have a gay buddy who jokes that when most gay guys arrive in a major city, they are immediately directed to the closest "Gay University" where they get to learn all the stereo-typical gay voices and behaviors. :biggrin1:

 

[birocker]

I dislike a speech lisp. I avoid guys that have it.

 

[Rugbypup]

You've never heard of cri du chat syndrome I see.:smile:


Cri du chat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


From genetic causes of speech disorders:

Genetic Causes

You are referring to genetic malformations and conditions that cause speech defects. This is not the same. A manner of speaking such as an accent is entirely different to a manner of speaking that's due to say, a cleft pallet.

If it were, you are basically saying that some gay men, predominately effeminate gay men have a genetic disorder resulting in the characteristics camp gay lisp.

If the lisp were genetic, it would also manifest in straight men and straight, gay women. It does not.

 

[Rugbypup]

I haven't noticed that the "gay lisp" or mannerisms seem particularly feminine. If a woman talked or behaved in the same way, it would not look or sound natural.

Very true.

 

[dreamer20]

Furthermore, there is no gene or chromosome that determines the way we speak.

Meme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you are basically saying that some gay men, predominately effeminate gay men have a genetic disorder resulting in the characteristics camp gay lisp.

I said nothing of the sort regarding effeminate speech. That speech would be a genetic variation, but not a disorder.
BTW your meme-theorists postulate genetic inheritance is one of the processes through which memes evolve at your wikipedia link:

Meme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner similar to that of biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity's reproductive success.

 

[Rugbypup]

I said nothing of the sort regarding effeminate speech. That speech would be a genetic variation, but not a disorder.

Still implies the 'gay lisp' is genetic. Accents and speech patterns of this nature are not genetically inherited. It is not a specifically gay genetic inheritance, if it were, all gay men would have it. They don't.

If a new born Irish child, born in Ireland by Irish parents was given up for adoption, the child was then subsequently raised in Scotland by Scottish speaking parents, then the child would have a Scottish accent, not an Irish one. See my point?

BTW your meme-theorists postulate genetic inheritance is one of the processes through which memes evolve at your wikipedia link:

I don't own any meme theorists to my knowledge?

 

[musclemonkey5]

H
where big cities, they're bitchy, sarcastic with all the speech and mannerisms show up, like they're compensating for years or hiding and have something to prove that they're "proud". Also think that a lot of gay guys run from conservative areas to the big cities and just conform to try and fit in and the stereotypes are the easiest to conform to, cause it doesn't threaten the status quo.

I always got hassled for not being "gay" enough in big cities, not doing the partying, working out for performance and sports vs to just get laid. And since I was just the quiet stoic type got crap cause I didn't conform to the status quo. Usually just cause people always told me I had a quiet confidence in who I was and it makes people that are insecure feel more so. Least that's how older, wiser, been around the block gay guys in big cities always explained it to me.

I agree with this assessment all the way