The hypocrisy of freedom

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by GottaBigOne, Jun 25, 2005.

  1. GottaBigOne

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    Ground Zero art

    This just sickens me so much. I dont mind if Pataki were to voice his dislike, but to prevent the free flow of ideas and to keep saying that the role of his position is to protect the sanctity of anything just appals me. Sanctity is a religious term, the government has no right to protect or destroy the sanctity of anything.
     
  2. Freddie53

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    I don't know much about the word sanctity of life and if it is exclusively a religious term or not, but.....

    You don't lease out land to a liguor store and then complain when the store stocks liguor.

    Which is what is happening here. If that ground is that sacred, then a museum to those whose lives were lost would have been the appropriate museum for the all the sacred land. But once the decision was made to allow this "sacred ground" to be used for other purposes than a monument to the dead and injured, then the ground became no longer sacred for what happened there. It is just land.

    And freedom is freedom or it isn't freedom. If the land is leased to a museum then the museum has a right to use it as it see fit.

    That is the way this southern boy see it.

    Pataki is doing what is politically expedient. Others made the decision to lease the land out. I'm sure he knew all about it from the get go and now he is crying foul. Typical. Consider the source.

    By the way. The treatment of American Indians by the American government during the 19th century is very well documented. And slavery in the South is very much documented. I am not sure where the anit-American stuff fits in here except in the mind of the govenor.
     
  3. naughty

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    Workin' up a good pot of mad!
    Gentlemen,

    It seems that Gov.Pataki is responding to the pressure of the families of victims of 911. It is curious that because the World Trade Center was a site of International commerce so many of the victims were not Americans per se. I think it is totally out of line for him to claim that a dicussion America's historic mistreatment of some of its oldest inhabitants is anti American. As Freddie stated , it happened. Get over it. If anyone is disrespecting the space it is the governor by talking out of both sides of his mouth. Santity,Santified ,all stem from the meaning "to set aside" .

    Naughty
     
  4. Lex

    Lex
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    In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
    Being an artist (even anon-practicing one), I am extremely sensitive to issues of censorship in general. I understand and respect the victim's feelings--but doesn't censoring the art denegrate the feelings and perspectives of the artists and people who may want to experinces those perceptions/experineces?

    Aren't (Shouldn't) all our perceptions be equally valued?
     
  5. DC_DEEP

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    Yes, GBO, it is sickening. <sigh> The really horrible part is, it does not surprise me.

    As far as the other stuff goes, although I have pale skin, my family tree grew from native americans and sharecroppers (talk about the worst of both worlds&#33;) You cannot imagine how frustrating it is for me when people assume that my "whiteness" means I am from a family of slave-owners. As awful as slavery was, even the slaves had protections that the sharecroppers did not.

    Interesting how the Guv words his statement - something about him and his power to prevent it from happening. Well, power is what politics is all about, isn&#39;t it?
     
  6. jonb

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    I still don&#39;t get how the 9/11 victims were "heroes". Heroism is when you risk your life for a cause. They died because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. *sigh* More proof that "hero" is an overused term.

    Of course, most New Yorkers think Bush was behind 9/11.
     
  7. GottaBigOne

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    The thing that sickens me the most is that when he speaks of it being un-american, he goes on to say that we have to protect america because we have to protect freedom. Doesn&#39;t he see how fucked that is?????? The only way to protect freedom is to let people be free, even if it means giving them the freedom to voice unpopular opinions, or facts.
     
  8. DC_DEEP

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    We do have to protect america, and we do have to protect freedom. But stripping amendments, one by three, from the constitution is not the way to do it. Denying any citizen his 1st, 4th, 5th, or 14th amendment rights protects no one, and injures our nation in a most evil fashion.

    That seems to be the way that much has gotten done in the last 5 years - threaten anyone who stands up for his rights, brand him as a traitor. I think the real traitors are the ones who vote for crap like the "patriot act". There is nothing patriotic about it, it is a completely National-Socialist (Nazi, that is) document, intended to be the novocaine prior to further stripping the people of their rights. If you use the right terminology, (national security, patriot act, enemy combatant) the sheep (general public) will never know when speaking out against the government became punishable by death without trial.
     
  9. madame_zora

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    Wow, I like how suddenly everything that does not paint us as noble, kind and good is now "Anti-american", let&#39;s not let a little thing like reality get in our way. As for the content of the offensive art linking bush to Osama Bin Laden, WELL THEIR FAMILIES HAVE BEEN FRIENDS AND BUSINESS PARTNERS FOR TWENTY FUCKING YEARS&#33; AAAAAAAAAH, I CAN&#39;T TAKE IT ANYMORE&#33; Ahem, yeah, that&#39;s how I feel about it. Reality is good, covering it up is bad. People are stupid and it just goes on and on. "The Masses" are almost always wrong&#33; "The Masses" thought the world was flat, Galileo was a heretic, Jesus needed to be crucified as a heretic, witches should be burned at the stake, Natives here should be rounded up and hauled off to reservations (although killing most of them was easier).

    You know, fuck all that, fuck political correctness. I&#39;m not so daft as to believe logic or reason will ever prevail amoung people who are just too underdeveloped to receive it, but I have to hope for at least a shread of human decency, we HAVE to be capable of that&#33; Our nation has an ugly history of violence and cruelty, maybe if we realised it fully, we could make a new decision based on not wanting to return there. By just ignoring it we allow it to continue.

    "Ground zero" is not holy land, it&#39;s a place where an atrocity occured much like many atrocities have occured in the past. It seems the perfect place to proclaim "No more&#33;" Art is here to enlighten us, and if we will not be enlightened then what hope can we possibly have? We allow the thick and the slow to lead us, our choices in leaders reveal much about our society as a whole, don&#39;t you think? We allow fear and rhetoric to guide our thinking (what little of it we do) and will be given to spouting out soundbytes if anyone asks our opinion on anything (yes, I really do talk to almost everyone I meet about this stuff). Extremely few people do any research at all and many who do are doing it to provide the answers they want rather than to uncover the truth to the best of their ability. Don&#39;t you think I would LOVE to be able to back this president? Don&#39;t you think I&#39;m a fat american who craves comfort just like you? I AM, and I&#39;d be delighted to be able to believe in him, God knows I tried after 9/11 to give him a chance and keep an open mind. He proceeded to erase any hope I could possibly have that he was honest, had integrity, cared about our people, or cared about anything other than himself for that matter. Much of our leadership is coming out of the closet with their selfishness now, unapologetically because they know they don&#39;t have to apologise to us. We are so easily frightened by threats to our security that we gladly bend over and take it up the ass on anything they suggest, and in our shrinking weakness we leave ourselves vulnerable to the wicked and the greedy. Shame on us all if we allow this to happen. We are standing on the threashold of a choice, what we choose could be relevant, but I believe we will decline to make the choice, thus allowing the object in motion to stay in motion.
     
  10. DC_DEEP

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    Well, Jana, the sad part of all this is that the ones who actually have a brain and use it are too often the ones whose brains are numb, they are just so tired of all they bullshit they say "fuck it" and stick their heads in the sand. They lose the drive and desire to vote, because they think it has become useless. In the meantime, the brainless sheep/lemings/general public listen Brother Foamingmouth in the pulpit telling them that they will go to hell if they don&#39;t vote for the nazi/republican candidate, and they turn out for the vote in droves. It is a vicious, self-perpetuating downward spiral.

    I need to find a Ph. D. Linguist who will do me the favor of a "compare-and-contrast" analysis of dubya&#39;s speeches since his first purchased term in office, and those of hitler during the rise of the Third Reich and his ascent into power. I see the similarities, and they frighten me, but I don&#39;t quite have the necessary training and skills to make a scholarly paper on the subject.

    Too bad our chief justice o the supreme(ist) court can&#39;t hold out long enough to get a replacement from a different president. <sigh>

    I regret to admit that I am one who did not vote in the last election - but that was simply due to another battle I am fighting - namely, the commonwealth of virginia is refusing to register me to vote if I do not provide to them my social security number. It&#39;s one of my main windmills to tilt right now, protecting my social security number and my privacy. Unfortunately, you sometimes can&#39;t be in multiple battles at the same time. Oh, and virginia won&#39;t issue me a drivers license, either.
     
  11. Imported

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    orionsword57:
    As it can be argued that I fit the above description, I&#39;ll give this rebuttal, for what it&#39;s worth. If the populace is going to be satisfied by "bread & circuses" and are turning to false prophets in religions because they need some sort of SOMETHING to believe in, there&#39;s little a sane reasonable person can do when we must ask people to turn back trends through giving certain things up. I&#39;ve watched fine people like Bill Bradley get slaughtered because he represented such a hope for our country. We voted for a fine naive man like Jimmy Carter, and he showed us that he was not strong enough for the entire power structure (both Liberal & Conservative). If somebody came along basically advocating what Jesus taught, they would be crucified again. (I&#39;ve been to religious book stores many times and have asked for a book with nothing but the words of Jesus.... there are NONE to be found&#33;). The thing is, folks like me don&#39;t stick our heads in the sand, pop a top and veg out in front of the telly. We find a place, a cause and a level where we CAN make a difference. We do what we can, and affect those lives we can reach. This is not just preaching to the choir, but actually changing attitudes person by person, not state by state. It is realistic, so we choose that rather than beating our heads against the human condition.
     
  12. DC_DEEP

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    As it can be argued that I fit the above description, I&#39;ll give this rebuttal, for what it&#39;s worth. If the populace is going to be satisfied by "bread & circuses" and are turning to false prophets in religions because they need some sort of SOMETHING to believe in, there&#39;s little a sane reasonable person can do when we must ask people to turn back trends through giving certain things up. I&#39;ve watched fine people like Bill Bradley get slaughtered because he represented such a hope for our country. We voted for a fine naive man like Jimmy Carter, and he showed us that he was not strong enough for the entire power structure (both Liberal & Conservative). If somebody came along basically advocating what Jesus taught, they would be crucified again. (I&#39;ve been to religious book stores many times and have asked for a book with nothing but the words of Jesus.... there are NONE to be found&#33;). The thing is, folks like me don&#39;t stick our heads in the sand, pop a top and veg out in front of the telly. We find a place, a cause and a level where we CAN make a difference. We do what we can, and affect those lives we can reach. This is not just preaching to the choir, but actually changing attitudes person by person, not state by state. It is realistic, so we choose that rather than beating our heads against the human condition.
    [post=324684]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]
    Orion, your post seems a bit more like paraphrasing mine, than rebutting it. And you don&#39;t sound like one of the "head-in-the-sand" type, although I did take that route once, for about one year. My point is that although I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, I would love to see TRULY freedom-loving, patriotic Americans put their collective feet down and say "ENOUGH&#33;" When I say freedom, I mean allowing individual Americans to have those rights outlined in the first 14 amendments to the US Constitution. My rights end where your liberties begin, why is that such a hard concept for the conservatives? IMHO, curtailing the Bill of Rights is NOT patriotic, nor is it the road to true freedom. It is not religion that terrorists are opposing in the US, it is the Imperialistic "manifest destiny" attitude of our current administration.

    If I can convince just one person at a time to let their senators and representatives know, on no uncertain terms, that the "national ID" thing is just unacceptable, they will NOT get re-elected if they pass it, then the "national ID" will not materialize. Unfortunately, most people I talk to take the attitude of "well, they already have our SSN on everything else, just go with the flow." NO, I WILL NOT&#33;&#33;&#33; I am taking back my privacy, if it kills me&#33;
     
  13. Imported

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    orionsword57: "...the "national ID" thing is just unacceptable...

    I think you will see the same kind of destruction of a National ID card that you did when people burned draft cards during the Viet nam war. We don&#39;t burn driver&#39;s licences because we need them to operate our favorite addictions.
     
  14. VinceNYC

    VinceNYC New Member

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    Um, yeah, he says:

    "We will not tolerate anything on that site that denigrates America, denigrates New York or freedom or denigrates the sacrifice and courage that the heroes showed on Sept. 11."

    So he&#39;s going to take away the freedom of certain people who may have something to say that he deems offensive. HELLO? *knocking on governor&#39;s head* Is this thing on? The contradiction would be amusing if it weren&#39;t so dangerous.
     
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