The Improbable WTC 7 Collapse

Nitrofiend

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If you seriously believe that the government caused 9/11 or anything that bullshit loose change video says, you're an idiot. I'm sorry, I usually don't resort to name-calling in a debate, but there's none to be had here. All of you conspiracy theorists just like to feel that you're "in-the-know" and special, so you reject hard facts.

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

These links were taken straight from http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

There's a lot of accurate reading there, so get busy.
 

Ineligible

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Conspiracy theorists often seem to be rejecting the official theory as unlikely, and then replacing it with one that is extraordinarily, amazingly, less likely. One person can keep a secret easily enough. If there are a few people, there's a good chance the secret can be kept. But when you have to postulate that a large number of people know a terrible shocking secret, and none of them have succumbed to attacks of conscience and told - it's unbelievable.

When you consider that the alternative is, at most, that we don't know as much as we thought we did about how buildings (each one different) react to a combination of damage (different from any seen before) and fire (each one different) - well, it doesn't stretch credulity nearly as much.
 

rob_just_rob

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*shrugs* Those of you who were eyewitnesses have been contradicted by other eyewitnesses. Believe what you like - I stand by my previous statement.

And I guess we'll find out more once all the principals involved are deceased and the related government documentation is unclassified. I do wonder why they don't unclassify it now, though... I mean, assuming there's nothing to hide. :rolleyes:
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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It amazes me that people are so conceited, that if others do not believe a conspiracy theory, the non-believers are uneducated.

I'm personally sick of this shit. One of my best friends fathers died in that wreck, and I'm sick of you fuckers trying to turn it into your political gain. It's not just "Hardcore Republicans" rickster, that's bullshit and you know it. It's regualr americans, world scientists, the 9-11 comission, the best engineers in the world who say this was caused by two planes nailing a building.

So fuck all of you who try to turn this loss of life for their argument for their attack on Bushco. None of you are skyscraper engineers, none of you have all the information, none of you know. So don't pretend like you do.
 

hungthickdc

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rob_just_rob said:
*shrugs* Those of you who were eyewitnesses have been contradicted by other eyewitnesses. Believe what you like - I stand by my previous statement.

So... even though I watched in horror as a plane smashed into the Pentagon... I really don't know what I saw? Whatever... it's simple... you have some weird need for it to be a conspiracy... makes it more exciting for you I guess... is your life that boring?

hey... I've got a better theory... maybe it was aliens... that would be really cool...
 

rob_just_rob

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hungthickdc said:
So... even though I watched in horror as a plane smashed into the Pentagon... I really don't know what I saw? Whatever... it's simple... you have some weird need for it to be a conspiracy... makes it more exciting for you I guess... is your life that boring?

Maybe the people who saw something other than a plane were lying. Maybe you're lying. Maybe there's a third explanation for the inconsistency which we haven't hit upon, yet.

hey... I've got a better theory... maybe it was aliens... that would be really cool...

Sure would. Have you seen many aliens?
 

hungthickdc

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rob_just_rob said:
Maybe the people who saw something other than a plane were lying. Maybe you're lying. Maybe there's a third explanation for the inconsistency which we haven't hit upon, yet.



Sure would. Have you seen many aliens?

Not that I can remember... but I've woken up many times with a sore ass... so what else could it have been ... aliens doing an anal probe. I mean come on... there's no other logical explanation!
 

mindseye

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There is a "milder conspiracy theory" out there, called LIHOP for ("Let It Happen On Purpose"). The advocates of LIHOP suggest that the buildings were brought down by terrorists but that the Bush administration was fully aware of their actions and chose not to prevent the attacks, knowing that they'd have an easier time pushing through their plans for war in the post-9/11 panic.

Being open to LIHOP doesn't require one to imagine planting explosives in the WTC buildings ahead of time, crazy insurance scams, etc., and much of the evidence in favor of LIHOP has been verified through multiple sources.

Evidence that the US had adequate warning of the 9/11 attacks: (I believe that all of these sources are credible and that each of these warnings actually happened.)
  • One month before the attacks, on August 6, the CIA delivered a briefing to George W. Bush entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States".
  • The governments of four different allied countries -- Germany, Egypt, Russia, and Israel -- communicated to the US through diplomatic channels that their intelligence had picked up word of an impending attack on the US. (source) The warning by the Egyptian government came within two weeks of the actual attack. (source)
  • In August 2001, a Moroccan intelligence official named Hassan Dabou, who had infiltrated al-Qaeda back in 1999, reported that bin Laden had planned “something spectacular” involving “large scale operations in New York in the summer or fall of 2001.” Moroccan intelligence passed this information to US. US intelligence is so interested that they call Dabou to Washington to report on this information in person. (source)
  • On September 10, 2001, the NSA intercepted two messages from al-Qaeda operatives in Afghanistan saying "Tomorrow is zero hour", and "The match begins tomorrow". The NSA states that they did not translate and analyze the messages in time to act on them. (source)
Coincidence or conspiracy? (These events are credibly documented, but may just be coincidences.)
  • September 11 was a Tuesday. The Friday before September 11, Jeb Bush announced Executive Order 01-261, which authorizes the Governor to activate National Guard troops "based on the potential massive damage to life and property that may result from an act of terrorism at a Florida port". (This superceded a previous Executive Order that made no mention of terrorism.)
  • On September 10, the NYSE received over 360,000 put options for American Airlines, far outnumbering the number of call options for the same stock. (source). A "put option" is a form of insurance in which the stock owner purchases the right to sell shares at the September 10 value, even if the value drops later on. (In fairness, I'll point out that Snopes suggests an alternate explanation for these put options that's unrelated to 9/11.)
Red herring: (This is almost certainly a slip of the tongue, and not part of a big conspiracy, even though it's often cited on conspiracy sites.)
  • Conspiracy site whatreallyhappened reports the interview that FEMA spokesman Tom Kenney gave on September 12, in which he stated that "We arrived on late Monday night, and went into action on Tuesday morning." Having FEMA at Ground Zero the day before the attacks would definitely be a red flag. Surely, however, Kenney just got his days of the week confused -- remember that at the time of the interview, he's as shellshocked as you and I were on September 12, *plus* he was operating on no sleep. Other members of that FEMA team confirm that they were given travel orders after the planes hit the building, not before.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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LIHOP? I always knew there was something sinister to that restaurant chain.... and it had nothing to do with pancakes.

I don't believe this conspiracy theory either, though it is a lot more credible than any missles/explosives/military jets theory out there. I know too many people in the intelligence community to believe that this is a possible explanation of events. and look at the look on Bush's face when he's sitting in that class holding My Pet Goat. Does he really look like a man in control who knows exactly what's going on? He looks confused, afraid, bewildered.... like every single other person in the country at the same time. Maybe he was acting but I don't think he was that good of an actor. The oft-cited CIA briefing is also no evidence at all, as has been pointed out many times (and I agree with the administration on this one- though I am by no means a Rep. apologist) one warning amidst a sea of poorly organized intelligence information doesn't really draw that much attention to itself. Bin Laden has been determined to attack the USA for years before 9/11 and has been determined to attack again in the years following 9/11. We know this. He talks smack all the time whenever he makes a new tape. If another attack is executed by Al-Qaeda in 2007, are people going to come out and say that the government must have been complicit with the attack because in 2002 Dick Cheney said that Al-Qaeda was determined to attack within the United States again? That would be absolutely absurd.

That we didn't heed warnings from other allied governments shows incompetence or disorganization as much or more than it demonstrates evil intent.

re: Moroccan intelligence, again, Bin Laden is ALWAYS planning something. We know this right now and we knew it back in 2000. That doesn't mean we know WHAT he's planning.

The NSA not translating messages in time again shows ineptitude more than anything else. Even if they HAD translated the message, in a pre-9/11 world, if we had heard a day before the attacks "tomorrow is zero hour"...... that would have helped how exactly? The country was totally unprepared for this kind of attack. Frankly, we're still underprepared.

If the Bushes knew what was going on, why would they want to protect Florida from terrorist attacks? Absolutely nothing happened in Florida.

and the last two points you raise are, quite fairly, refuted by other points you also raise.

Is it possible the government was in on this? maybe. Is it highly HIGHLY unlikely? absolutely. Do any of the points raised by any of the conspiracy theorists out there actually prove ANYTHING? No.

With all the real things our government does that we should be concerned about it seems very silly to be wasting energy trying to prove things that they haven't done. There are plenty of reasons to hate Bush, to be against the war in Iraq, and to suspect that there may have been some ulterior motives or conspiracies involved in planning and executing that war that have nothing to do with Al-Qaeda or the attacks of September 11th.
 

mindseye

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NineInchCock_160IQ said:
Does he really look like a man in control who knows exactly what's going on?

Just to clarify -- I was trying to give a complete summary of the biggest pieces of evidence behind LIHOP, including points that I don't support myself. (I agree with some of your refutations.)

My personal hunch? (And it's only a hunch -- I'm going on gut instinct, and not facts here):

Top strategists in the Bush Administration, including Karl Rove and Dick Cheney, had advance warning of an attack on 9/11, although they may not have known specific details of the attack. (Rove is a lot of things, but "incompetent" and "disorganized" he isn't.) Important details were kept from George W. Bush, who's more given to rambling and running off at the mouth than they are, and he was sent on vacation during the weeks prior to 9/11 to keep him out of the way. The bewilderment you spot on George's face was genuine.
 

JMeister

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hungthickdc,

Which was it, the plane or a plane? Does any recall if they found any body parts from 'the plane' hitting the Pentagon.

Studies have shown people believe what they want in spite of facts. In this case the facts are few are far between so it's even easier to believe what you want.

I guess the facts are lot of very good people died, three buildings came to rest on the ground and there was a hole in the side of the Pentagon. Beyond that who knows?

For every expert that says "X" happened, there seems to be another exper that says that "X" couldn't have happened.

Perhaps time will reveal. Or perhpas not.
 

Rikter8

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Nitrofiend said:
There's a lot of accurate reading there, so get busy.

I did read.

"12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."
NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel."

Course not.... Chemical checks are quick and easy...wouldn't want to let the cat out of the bag...instead get government approved scientists to theorize what happened.

"14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?
When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation."

Don't want to bring in anybody that might let out the truth.

Secondly, this is a .gov site... do you really think they would incriminate themselves?
 

dolf250

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What I find interesting is the number of people who will not question what is said. I do not know that I believe a conspiracy occurred here, but as I said, there are some interesting questions posed. People are free to discount it and decide that anybody who questions the government is a stupid fuck, but perhaps people need to look at some of the questions. Much of what is used to support a conspiracy theory is BS. Much of it can be pr oven wrong and many of the questions answered, but there remain some outstanding questions. I await the next Oliver Stone movie about this subject. There have been rumours that he is considering a conspiracy based movie about the WTC.

Not really being a huge supporter I am more prone to consider some of the points mindseye brought up. I do not think that it was a conspiracy involving hundreds of people with explosives bringing down the towers and planning the attacks, but just a few who decide no keep a little information back to benefit themselves and further their goals at the cost of a few thousand lives seems a little more likely, though still very scary.
 

fratpack

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rob_just_rob said:
*shrugs* Those of you who were eyewitnesses have been contradicted by other eyewitnesses. Believe what you like - I stand by my previous statement.

And I guess we'll find out more once all the principals involved are deceased and the related government documentation is unclassified. I do wonder why they don't unclassify it now, though... I mean, assuming there's nothing to hide. :rolleyes:

So even though there were thousands of people who were in downtown Manhattan on that morning, you mean to say there are people who would argue over what we all saw.......there seems to be such desparation with those who believe in this conspiracy theory. What's more there seems to be such disregard for those who suffered and died that day. I, at this point, am done with this thread since conspiracy theorists appear to have their own agenda and will continue to dismiss those of us who were actually present at the scene of the World Trade Center.
 

tripod

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I don't think it is a matter of conspiracy theorists against the "fans" of the administration. There is nothing wrong with people that believe in their country and feel that they have been given all of the information that they need to figure out the "mysterious" events of 9/11. There is also nothing wrong with a significant portion of the American population that smelled something fishy on that fateful day. I am a conspiracy theorist myself, but I am also open to the possibility that there was little to no conspiracy. I think that it boils down to two camps:

1). The camp that feels it was o.k. for the CIA to overthrow the democraticly elected leader of Iran in 1953 (He was Time magazines man of the year) and impose the despotic Shah who terrorized his people and ruled by oppression. The people that feel it was o.k. on SEPTEMBER 11th 1973 to assassinate the world's first democraticly elected marxist-head of state Salvatore Allende and overthrow the government of Chile. Or to assassinate presidents Omar Torrijos of Panama and Jaime Roldos of Ecuador in 1981 with subsequent attempts to overthrow their governments in either invasions or coups (we invaded Panama in 1989). Or think that it was o.k. to invade and occupy Puerto Rico on the way to the Phillipines in the Spanish American war. I could go on

2). And those who do not.
 

mindseye

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One conspiracy per thread, please! ;)

tripod said:
The people that feel it was o.k. on SEPTEMBER 11th 1973 to assassinate the world's first democraticly elected marxist-head of state Salvatore Allende and overthrow the government of Chile. Or to assassinate presidents Omar Torrijos of Panama and Jaime Roldos of Ecuador in 1981

None of these leaders have been proven to be assassinated. I'll concede that the officially-accidental deaths of Torrijos and Roldós were not sufficiently investigated, but there's ample evidence and eyewitness testimony that Allende chose to commit suicide rather than answer to the coup that ousted him.
 

tripod

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Mindseye you are a very intelligent man, but you need to use your intuition and common sense on this one. The supposition that there was no CIA involvement is just wishful thinking, although there is nothing wrong with that.
 

rob_just_rob

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fratpack said:
So even though there were thousands of people who were in downtown Manhattan on that morning, you mean to say there are people who would argue over what we all saw.......there seems to be such desparation with those who believe in this conspiracy theory. What's more there seems to be such disregard for those who suffered and died that day. I, at this point, am done with this thread since conspiracy theorists appear to have their own agenda and will continue to dismiss those of us who were actually present at the scene of the World Trade Center.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Those who insist that there are no unanwered questions relating to the events of 9/11 seem pretty desperate to me.

Lots of people were present at the WTC scene. For every hundred people you'll probably find ninety-nine different impressions they came away with. Ask an investigative reporter about this phenomenon, if you don't believe me. And having been at the scene doesn't mean you know anything more than what you think you saw, heard and felt.

In other news, pro-government theorists seem to have their own agenda and they continue to dismiss attempts to discuss anything other than the "official" 9/11 story.