The Improbable WTC 7 Collapse

rob_just_rob

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tripod said:
1). The camp that feels it was o.k. for the CIA to overthrow the democraticly elected leader of Iran in 1953 (He was Time magazines man of the year) and impose the despotic Shah who terrorized his people and ruled by oppression. The people that feel it was o.k. on SEPTEMBER 11th 1973 to assassinate the world's first democraticly elected marxist-head of state Salvatore Allende and overthrow the government of Chile. Or to assassinate presidents Omar Torrijos of Panama and Jaime Roldos of Ecuador in 1981 with subsequent attempts to overthrow their governments in either invasions or coups (we invaded Panama in 1989). Or think that it was o.k. to invade and occupy Puerto Rico on the way to the Phillipines in the Spanish American war. I could go on

For me, these events and others* demonstrate that our governments are capable of doing very bad things to achieve certain unofficial goals. And while these events aren't evidence that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks, or knew of the attacks in advance, they shoot a big hole in any argument that our governments would never organize or abet anything as evil as the 9/11 attacks.

*the Maine, Pearl Harbour, the Gulf of Tonkin incident... see a pattern forming?
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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mindseye said:
Just to clarify -- I was trying to give a complete summary of the biggest pieces of evidence behind LIHOP, including points that I don't support myself. (I agree with some of your refutations.)

My personal hunch? (And it's only a hunch -- I'm going on gut instinct, and not facts here):

Top strategists in the Bush Administration, including Karl Rove and Dick Cheney, had advance warning of an attack on 9/11, although they may not have known specific details of the attack. (Rove is a lot of things, but "incompetent" and "disorganized" he isn't.) Important details were kept from George W. Bush, who's more given to rambling and running off at the mouth than they are, and he was sent on vacation during the weeks prior to 9/11 to keep him out of the way. The bewilderment you spot on George's face was genuine.

I understood that in your post, I was directing my incredulity at the positions you were articulating, mindseye, not at you specifically. I can buy that Rove, Cheney, and/or otheres in the administration may have had some idea that Bin Laden was planning something, they probably did, as I pointed out that much at least was not exactly a surprise. This doesn't really constitute a conspiracy though, that's all I was saying.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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rob_just_rob said:
In other news, pro-government theorists seem to have their own agenda and they continue to dismiss attempts to discuss anything other than the "official" 9/11 story.

pro-government???? It's just pro-common sense. There's no reason to turn this into being for or against Bush, though I realize that's what so many have done. That's why the argument has gotten so fricking stupid.
 

Hatched69

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Criminy!!
It's like this::soapbox::icon1:

1. Some pissed off Muslims decided to wreck a couple American planes into American buildings and kill American people (and other nationalities) for whatever reasons they were pissed off about!

2. George Bush and co. IGNORED the warnings and tell-tale signs of impending doom, which caught them "by surprise" (on their accounts).

3. The WTC buildings fell because they were NOT DESIGNED to withstand the heat of a fully-gassed-up Boeing 747 aircraft!! Not to mention the sheer force of impact on the structure itself with the aircraft doing 400+ MPH!! The biggest aircraft in the early '70's was a 707, and the buildings were designed thusly. WTC7 likely fell due to the "liquefaction" beneath it when the other buildings fell. Aliens didn't bomb the damn thing, nor did Darth Vader's light saber have any effect on it!!

4. People DIED in this tragedy!!! Quarrelling about "who's to blame" does not honor their memory!!:usa2:

5. People will always see things from different viewpoints, therefore have different opinions. However, when you see the fuselage of an aircraft coming at you at 400+ MPH, the viewpoint is usually common - OH SHIT!!!!

6. An aircraft DID hit the Pentagon!! I personally lost many long-time friends due to the "accident" and there's no refuting that an aircraft caused their deaths. This has been verified from eyewitness accounts from very trustworthy sources.

7. Bush and co. used 9/11 as an excuse to go after Saddam, who's had a personal vendetta with Bush Sr. and Rumsfeld since the 80's. It came down to who kicked whose ass 1st.

8. Bill Clinton may have had the resources to "off" Bin Laden, but didn't have the support needed to follow through.

9. There you have it. Short version, small words..
End of story. :unitedstates:
 

dolf250

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NineInchCock_160IQ said:
pro-government???? It's just pro-common sense. There's no reason to turn this into being for or against Bush, though I realize that's what so many have done. That's why the argument has gotten so fricking stupid.

I would have to agree with that. I am not a huge “Bush booster” but I still would have voted for him during the last election (if I were able to vote in the U.S.) For me it should not have anything to do with the current administration. I do not know that elected officials are capable of planning or taking part in these things. Their terms are shrot and they are unstable. it would seem more likely that IF there were any thype of backroom planning it was just that and took place amongst UNELECTED officials who sit back and watch administration after administration come and go while they plug along with whatever they are doing.
It seems wrong to conclude that if you think that there is more to it than the official explanation that you hate Bush and that if you like him you cannot question the events that take place while he is in office.
 

dolf250

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Hatched69 said:
4. People DIED in this tragedy!!! Quarrelling about "who's to blame" does not honor their memory!!:usa2:
I can agree with most of your points, but this one I take issue with. It does not do any disservice to their memory of those who died to look into the truth. If the only truth is that a bunch of people who hate America flew planes into the buildings then great. If there was some government involvement in the form of turning a blind eye then fine too. If the government planned and executed it from start to finish then thats just fine as well- it does not do any harm to the memory of the victims unless you purposely do not look for the truth.

Most of the people in America do not believe the “lone gunman” theory and the “magical bullet” when it comes to JFK, but people questioning who was behind it and the reasons it happened has done NOTHING to tarnish the reputation or memory of your 35th president. The same holds true for the WTC. Even the most die hard conspiracy theorists do nothing to tarnish the memory of the victims unless they start claiming that it was those who died in the collapse who were the masterminds behind 9/11.

As a matter of fact, if there was more to it than meets the eye then NOT quarreling about “who is to blame “ would dishonor the memory of the victims.:usa2:
 

tripod

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Hatched69 said:
7. Bush and co. used 9/11 as an excuse to go after Saddam, who's had a personal vendetta with Bush Sr. and Rumsfeld since the 80's. It came down to who kicked whose ass 1st.

Wow, that statement is false. Here are links to the video of Saddam meeting with his pal Rummy in 1983 (They were certainly chummy).
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/shakinghands_high.wmv

Or better yet, here's the National Security Archive so you can read it and get a better understanding of Bush and co.'s relationship with the Iraqi regime.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
 

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Hatched69

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dolf250 said:
I can agree with most of your points, but this one I take issue with. It does not do any disservice to their memory of those who died to look into the truth. If the only truth is that a bunch of people who hate America flew planes into the buildings then great. If there was some government involvement in the form of turning a blind eye then fine too. If the government planned and executed it from start to finish then thats just fine as well- it does not do any harm to the memory of the victims unless you purposely do not look for the truth.

Most of the people in America do not believe the “lone gunman” theory and the “magical bullet” when it comes to JFK, but people questioning who was behind it and the reasons it happened has done NOTHING to tarnish the reputation or memory of your 35th president. The same holds true for the WTC. Even the most die hard conspiracy theorists do nothing to tarnish the memory of the victims unless they start claiming that it was those who died in the collapse who were the masterminds behind 9/11.

As a matter of fact, if there was more to it than meets the eye then NOT quarreling about “who is to blame “ would dishonor the memory of the victims.:usa2:

I understand what you are saying, and can agree to a certain point. But, there are folks who have gone WAAAY too far in the finger-pointing and have done a disservice to those who perished. Take Michael Moore for instance. He's been quoted as saying "if it'd been black folk fighting for their lives, none of this would have happened", or something similar. Wait a sec. You mean to tell me no one else had the strength or the willpower to overcome an AK-47 wielded by a madman? I think not. Race is not an issue, neither is physical strength, but trying to say that if there were a "stronger person" fighting to overcome the odds is pretty stupid. That does nothing to honor the dead. It insults them. Period.:mad:
There's been "conspiracy theories" on every tragic event to face this country and 9/11 is no exception. It's just getting old. For 5 years now we've heard "Bush planned it" like he planned Katrina. Uh huh. Riiiiight. He may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I cannot believe he'd stoop to the point of intently killing innocent people and destroying millions of dollars in buildings and commerce. That kinda goes AGAINST his budget plans..... If anyone wants to "dig deeper" into their conspiracy theories, go right ahead. What's done is done. This is simply a case of ignorance. Debate who was the ignorant fool and who let this turd loose all you want, but there's a lot of evidence backing up what's already been said.
 

Hatched69

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tripod said:
Wow, that statement is false. Here are links to the video of Saddam meeting with his pal Rummy in 1983 (They were certainly chummy).
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/shakinghands_high.wmv

Or better yet, here's the National Security Archive so you can read it and get a better understanding of Bush and co.'s relationship with the Iraqi regime.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Ummm, read your history books. This was taught to me in High School history 101. Things kinda fell apart between Rummy and Saddam in the late '80's. Not to mention Saddam and the Bush clan. If you're right, then why aren't they all friends and "chummy" right now? Last I recalled "friends" don't attempt to assassinate one another...
Who was it we were bombing in the 1st Gulf War..?? Oh yeah..IRAQ!!
 

tripod

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Hatched69 said:
Ummm, read your history books. This was taught to me in High School history 101. Things kinda fell apart between Rummy and Saddam in the late '80's. Not to mention Saddam and the Bush clan. If you're right, then why aren't they all friends and "chummy" right now?

The Iran/Iraq war was barely taught in public high school history. Go get a history book and leaf through it, you will find next to nothing. The U.N. voted to use military force in the first Gulf War and the U.S. took the military lead. That is why they are not friends. The U.S. gave Iraq all it's VX and Mustard gas that was used on the Kurds. They were for the "human wave" attacks that Iran waged over Iraq's border with their superior infantry numbers. Why we backed Iraq against Iran is another matter.
 

rob_just_rob

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NineInchCock_160IQ said:
pro-government???? It's just pro-common sense. There's no reason to turn this into being for or against Bush, though I realize that's what so many have done. That's why the argument has gotten so fricking stupid.

:tired: Common sense, or having your head in the sand... whatever. There are enough holes in the official version of events to make your "common sense" claim somewhat hollow.

Parenthetically, the republican apologists are foremost among those who want to bury any doubts about the 9/11 events. My "pro-government" characterization was directed at that group, and not anyone here specifically. Calm down.
 

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What's up with the terrorists that supposedly died on the three planes but claim to be alive? Are they dead or alive?
 

hungthickdc

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tripod said:
There is also nothing wrong with a significant portion of the American population that smelled something fishy on that fateful day. I am a conspiracy theorist myself, but I am also open to the possibility that there was little to no conspiracy. I think that it boils down to two camps:

1). The camp that feels it was o.k. for the CIA to overthrow the democraticly elected leader of Iran in 1953 (He was Time magazines man of the year) and impose the despotic Shah who terrorized his people and ruled by oppression. The people that feel it was o.k. on SEPTEMBER 11th 1973 to assassinate the world's first democraticly elected marxist-head of state Salvatore Allende and overthrow the government of Chile. Or to assassinate presidents Omar Torrijos of Panama and Jaime Roldos of Ecuador in 1981 with subsequent attempts to overthrow their governments in either invasions or coups (we invaded Panama in 1989). Or think that it was o.k. to invade and occupy Puerto Rico on the way to the Phillipines in the Spanish American war. I could go on

2). And those who do not.

Dude,
You make the most bizarre conclusions. It doesn't even make sense! A significant portion of Americans? What poll was this? At a conspiracy convention?
 

madame_zora

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It doesn't take a diehard conspiracy theorist to just follow the money. Who has profited thus far? If that question somehow does a disservice to the dead, then so be it, but I want to know.

When our government wasted no time in directly attempting to connect 9/11 to Iraq (which they most CERTAINLY did), I have unanswered questions.
 

tripod

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hungthickdc said:
Dude,
You make the most bizarre conclusions. It doesn't even make sense! A significant portion of Americans? What poll was this? At a conspiracy convention?

9/11 was a Coup d'Etat. A significant portion does NOT mean majority, what did you think I was saying? I was illustrating the U.S. governments past involvement with the overthrow of sovereign nations. My correlations actually DO make sense. There was no poll, I never mentioned one and a poll has nothing to do with my statements.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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madame_zora said:
It doesn't take a diehard conspiracy theorist to just follow the money. Who has profited thus far? If that question somehow does a disservice to the dead, then so be it, but I want to know.

When our government wasted no time in directly attempting to connect 9/11 to Iraq (which they most CERTAINLY did), I have unanswered questions.
Because you eat a banana and that makes your cramp go away it does seem reasonable to suspect that the banana might be high in potassium. It doesn't seem to imply that the banana was involved in some insidious conspiracy with Zionist elders to use their secret KGB-built orbital cramp-control lasers to trigger that cramp in your leg, though.

Said another way, there may well have been ulterior motives for the war in Iraq. In fact it's highly PROBABLE that there were ulterior motives for the war in Iraq. There's plenty of other evidence that there were ulterior motives for the war in Iraq. But it's still highly IMprobable that this administration was behind any part of planning or executing 9/11 and almost as improbable that there was any large-scale conspiracy to be complacent during it or complicit in it. One does NOT equal the other.
 

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NineInchCock_160IQ said:
Because you eat a banana and that makes your cramp go away it does seem reasonable to suspect that the banana might be high in potassium. It doesn't seem to imply that the banana was involved in some insidious conspiracy with Zionist elders to use their secret KGB-built orbital cramp-control lasers to trigger that cramp in your leg, though.

Said another way, there may well have been ulterior motives for the war in Iraq. In fact it's highly PROBABLE that there were ulterior motives for the war in Iraq. There's plenty of other evidence that there were ulterior motives for the war in Iraq. But it's still highly IMprobable that this administration was behind any part of planning or executing 9/11 and almost as improbable that there was any large-scale conspiracy to be complacent during it or complicit in it. One does NOT equal the other.

No, not necessarily of course, but when a specific group of people with an incredible amount of power worldwide have been PROVEN to have lied time and again about their individual behaviors wrt said event, it DOES lead to an obvious conclusion of either group stupidity or at least the underpinings of bad intention. At the very least they used the momentum of the tragedy of 9/11 to gain enough support to invade Iraq with no provocation.

I've been a conspiracy theorist since the damned thing started, and I mean 9/11. It has been PURELY speculative on my part, admittedly, and I also admit that it began with my dislike and distrust of 'ol Dumbya. Maybe I just put too much faith in our abilities to track things like planes that go off course, I have never been able to understand why there was no one monitoring those planes that would have known they'd gone off course to begin with. At the very least, I'd have thought there would have been cause to be on the lookout on 9/11, since we now know that (contrary to the original claims of bush and everyone else involved that they had no prior knowledge that a threat had been made) they WERE aware that Bin Laden had made a specific threat for that specific day that he would do exactly what he did do. See, I remembered the 80s and I already knew that the Bin Ladens and bushes were close family friends. As the lies of the cover-up of stupidity came to light (as I believed they would), my resolve became stronger.

Sure, there's a difference between inductive and deductive reasoning, and I realise that for most people, no amount of "nigga please" reasoning is going to satisfy their minds. But for me, it's just too far fetched to believe that an agency who has the vast amount of resources that our government has to be taken completely at unawares by a tribe of bandits in the desert. THAT'S a stretch I just can't make.

And why all the cover up? Why is so much of the factual evidence still classified if there's nothing to hide? Nigga please, it's too ridiculous to believe that it's just because it's "in the best interest of the American people" not to know. I don't HAVE evidence to back up my discomfort because the ones who are in charge of it won't let the truth out. THAT much is not up for debate, and it does lend credibility to the idea that something is rotten in Denmark. How much is uncertain, but given the scale of incompetencies that have unraveled since, it begs the question.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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madame_zora said:
At the very least they used the momentum of the tragedy of 9/11 to gain enough support to invade Iraq with no provocation.

I've been a conspiracy theorist since the damned thing started, and I mean 9/11. It has been PURELY speculative on my part, admittedly, and I also admit that it began with my dislike and distrust of 'ol Dumbya.

Your first assertion, granted. I mostly agree with that point, even if I believe certain people involved in the decision making process behind going to war did have good intentions. The second part here... is stating what I already suspected. You're an intelligent woman Zora, I think in this case, and in a few others, your unabashed hatred of G W Bush and his cohorts have clouded your reason. At least that's my own humble observation.

Watch United 93 if you want to know what was going on at National Air Traffic Control in Dulles (which is right down the road from my house, I know people who work there) when 9/11 happened. Most of the dialogue in this film is taken from actual recordings from that day. Keep in mind that nobody was expecting this to happen. I still remember the morning of 9/11 everyone thought that it was an accident until the second plane hit. There was widespread panic and chaos. I don't see the holes in the story that the theorists do.

As for the very powerful people in the administration and in other branches of government... true they are powerful, but as to how they could be thwarted by Bin Laden? I don't see this as difficult to understand, either. I mean, how may different times and in how many different ways has it been shown that our current government is completely incompetent? They would have to be some of the most on-the-ball brilliant idiot-proof masterminds in the world to pull of a scheme as elaborate and as well-obfuscated as what some of the conspiracy theorists out there claim they have done. I know a lot of people want to believe that the people we have in elected office, who work in our intelligence agencies, and who contribute to pulling the strings behind the scenes are all intelligent, capable saavy individuals. But many of them are not. They are just people. They have human failings like everyone else. The beauracracy in Washington has failings and breakdowns like any other because it is also run by people. The CIA is just a big company like any other company. Think of any job you've ever had before where you had to answer to a corporate beauracracy, and how fucked up it was. About how inept and/or stupid your supervisors were. I know people who work at the CIA, as well. I have no problem believing that some "desert bandits" could pull a fast one past these guys. James Bond, they ain't.
 

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madame_zora said:
And why all the cover up? Why is so much of the factual evidence still classified if there's nothing to hide? Nigga please, it's too ridiculous to believe that it's just because it's "in the best interest of the American people" not to know. .

Regarding this, they classify a lot of stupid crap. We don't even know what the budget alloted the Central Intelligence Agency each year is. They receive an undisclosed amount of tax payer dollars. How is that beneficial to the American people? Yet this has been the case for long before Bush came to office. and this administration is among the most secretive and non-transparent in recent history.