The Incel Problem

[deleted16192141]

Where did the white guy thing come from? I thought the stereotypical incel was usually just very fat and misogynistic.

Although according to MisterB if you have mental illnesses it’s your fault… so I don’t know

Well, lots of people tend to associate being an incel with being privileged (straight, white, etc) and being frustrated from it

 

[deleted5199391]

Well, lots of people tend to associate being an incel with being privileged (straight, white, etc) and being frustrated from it

People do that because that's a narrative pushed by media.
Also, a straight guy has not a privilege over a bisex like me just because he is straight. There's a big difference between correlation or cause/effect.

 

[Etkin]

Yikes.. the moment the OP tried to tie in the term "incel" with being almost exclusive to angry and white, this thread immediately became sketchy. those types of men are prevalent in ALL skin colors

 

[GetNakedIGotAPlan]

I’m starting to think the gay version of an incel is someone who can’t get into a monogamous relationship LOL. Perhaps we are all incels in our own ways for different things. How many people are involuntarily emotional, illogical, prejudice, sheepish, afraid, quick to judge?

I look at how angry and irrational people can be on this site over a simple question about sexuality. And then I think to myself: what if all of these people were born with a disability making them sexually unattractive to every person they encounter? Their perception of sexuality would be wildly different. Perhaps it is a fact many of us getting our sexual desires met is what keeps us sane. I’ve seen people suggest here if they couldn’t do anything sexual for the rest of their life it would be terrible and I fail to disagree.

We should get some more incels in this thread I want to hear their thoughts and experiences.

 

[MisterB]

If all you’re going to do is make generic arguments that ignore actual statistics relating to dating especially online and push this idea no one is entitled to mutual attraction while society simultaneously pushes partnership on everyone, you’re a part of the problem. As long as society pushes marriage and long term partnership as the norm, society is culpable for people feeling inadequate when they enter the dating game. There are clear statistics that show how online dating pans out for men. No one is obligated to be into anyone else, but when the social norm is to be partnered and certain groups are kept from partnership, this creates an inferiority complex and resulting issues.
Do research and stop projecting. It’s gross

You also are entitled to believe what you wish to believe. Doesn't mean I or anyone else has to agree.

I stand by what I said, because it's what I believe. Doesn't mean you or anyone else has to agree.

You do you boo!

 

[MisterB]

I never said you have to agree. You’re wrong and projecting your misunderstood anger all over this thread ruining the conversation. Moderating isn’t for everyone. Forcing your misinformed opinion on everyone isn’t the way to have a conversation nor is being passive aggressive.

Let me clear up your misconceptions here.

First and foremost, I am a Member of LPSG. That means I can post whatever I wish to post as a Member as long as I do it within the confines of LPSG's Rules. Just as I did for almost 8 years before I was asked by the Owner of LPSG to become a Moderator. And he made it clear that I am a Member first. Had he not, I most likely would not have accepted his offer.

All my posts in this thread were as a Member. I'm simply stating my opinions just as you are as a Member of LPSG. I'm not the one projecting anything on anyone.

So you throwing out all these terms like "projecting your misunderstood anger" and "passive aggression" means nothing. Other than you have no salient point with which to rebut my statements, which again, I stand by. Completely.

You don't have to like my position. Or agree with it. Nor do I have to do the same for you.

No one is entitled to a relationship. Because a viable relationship consists of two people who wish to be in said relationship. Just because one feels entitled to having a relationship doesn't make it so. Not how it works.

Let me repeat: Because at the end of the day, when it comes to the subject of incels and what/who you may think are responsible for them existing, no level of philosophizing can or will explain or justify incels and what they are about until they, and you, recognize that any change, if there is to be such, must come from within.

Blaming others for one's own issues/failings is not the answer. Personal responsibility cannot ignored. Nor dismissed because it doesn't fit a particular narrative you seek to promote.

 

[MisterB]

Your position is wrong.
Personal responsibility has nothing to do with the incel position.
You are projecting and it’s coming from your lack of understanding.
Everyone is entitled to love as our society pushes it onto us as a metric of our value.
you are projecting your anger at a group you understand nothing about
The funny thing is incels blame no one and many are ruthless with self improvement.
Do your research before you speak on a group.
Phrases like passive aggressive do matter. I took down your argument by proving your clear misinformed biases.

I'm not the angry one here...

No change must come from within because dating sites and apps aren’t set up for people who aren’t in the Top percentile to win. You can’t win desirability to change at your will. That’s not how it works.

You don't believe in personal responsibility. I do.

And that is how it works.

Maybe not in your life. And that's okay. You do you boo!

 

[MisterB]

Personal responsibility has nothing to do with proven statistics. Being passive aggressive on a forum doesn’t change that.

personal responsibility has nothing to do with dating.
Explain how it does. You can hold yourself personally responsible and still not get dates or experience mutual attraction. That’s why your projections make no sense and don’t work.
You are mad which is why you have attempted to shut down anything but your anti-incel propoganda.

Personal responsibility affects ALL aspects of one's life. It's a fact. You are responsible for you. And your choices. Good and bad.

Relationships are important aspects of MOST people's lives. Successful relationships even more so. Especially romantic relationships.

Neither you nor I am entitled to have any relationship with any other person if that person isn't interested. No matter these "proven statistics" as you say.

Because I'm not in a relationship with statistics. I'm in a relationship with other human beings. And the success of those relationships is borne by all involved.

If someone is not interested, you don't have a relationship. Except maybe in your mind...

And that's where it can get slippery for folks like incels and those who support them by believing they or you are entitled to anything from another person. Including a relationship. They, and you, are not.

 

[notthatguy]

I don’t actually believe in the theory of Incels.

I am a balding heavy set 59 year old and have absolutely my problem picking up 20-30 women.

For me…. they just need to stop blaming others and get in the action.

I will probably get lots of hate mail for my opinion..

 

[notthatguy]

Your reality isn’t the reality of other people.

Possibly... but I believe the old saying even a blind squirrel finds nuts sometimes.

 

[deleted4710801]

I also suspect that dialling down the "white straight man privilege" rhetoric wouldn't be a bad idea, because many of these young men feel demonised and told that they have a good lot when they aren't seeing it in action.

I don't usually have much to contribute to these discussions because I stay away from those radical incel circles, but I saw something on Reddit recently that may be useful here.

A commenter said it would be useful use the term "minority disadvantage" rather than "white/straight/male privilege".

I think that is very useful way to reframe the discussion! This way, you're not implicitly telling a whole group of people that they "had it easy" (because everyone, including white people/straight people/men face unique hardships or are able to be poor), but rather that someone else had extra challenges that they didn't have to deal with.

Someone may have mentioned that before, but that's my contribution at least. Carry on!

 

[deleted4710801]

Did you have a problem with your quote button?

 

[Sagittarius84]

I don't usually have much to contribute to these discussions because I stay away from those radical incel circles, but I saw something on Reddit recently that may be useful here.

A commenter said it would be useful use the term "minority disadvantage" rather than "white/straight/male privilege".

I think that is very useful way to reframe the discussion! This way, you're not implicitly telling a whole group of people that they "had it easy" (because everyone, including white people/straight people/men face unique hardships or are able to be poor), but rather that someone else had extra challenges that they didn't have to deal with.

Someone may have mentioned that before, but that's my contribution at least. Carry on!

I think the inherent problem is more of an automatic conflating of the concept of privilege and "having it easy".
To reframe the construct as minority disadvantage implies a deficient state of the minority experience as opposed to the foundational biases that put them there. The personal challenges we face amongst other demographic comparisons don't alleviate ourselves of the privileges we are afforded amongst others.

 

[Sagittarius84]

Everyone is entitled to love as our society pushes it onto us as a metric of our value.

Everyone is entitled to love.
personal responsibility is a conservative talking point that is borne out of privilege

Everyone is entitled to love no matter what fake argument you make against that.

I have to push back here..
I know it may seem a lot of our arguments are aligned, but I fundamentally disagree that everyone is entitled to love, and if that is a core basis of the incel gripe, they may want to invest in some introspection.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

I don't usually have much to contribute to these discussions because I stay away from those radical incel circles, but I saw something on Reddit recently that may be useful here.

A commenter said it would be useful use the term "minority disadvantage" rather than "white/straight/male privilege".

I think that is very useful way to reframe the discussion! This way, you're not implicitly telling a whole group of people that they "had it easy" (because everyone, including white people/straight people/men face unique hardships or are able to be poor), but rather that someone else had extra challenges that they didn't have to deal with.

Someone may have mentioned that before, but that's my contribution at least. Carry on!

I think the inherent problem is more of an automatic conflating of the concept of privilege and "having it easy".
To reframe the construct as minority disadvantage implies a deficient state of the minority experience as opposed to the foundational biases that put them there. The personal challenges we face amongst other demographic comparisons don't alleviate ourselves of the privileges we are afforded amongst others.

I would say those people that have the most sex are privileged. And you can extrapolate from that:

There are different factors that can increase or decrease your probability of sex. The way that the word privilege is sometimes used does not make any sense to me.

Being gay increase that privilege, I think. Because women are usually more reluctant to have sex compared to men and gay men are still men. But gay people they are disprivileged in other ways.

Your amout of success defines your privilege, in my opinion.

One factor could be willpower. Some people dont have a strong willpower. so they dont dare to ask women or men to go on a date. Those people are disprivileged and sometimes incels. Other people look ugly and those are also disprivileged because a lot of shallow people dont want to date them. That would be another factor, in my opinion.

 

[heinz.friedrich]

Willpower is bs.

Willpower could be one factor because some people do not have the will to ask. Sometimes this is caused through sicknesses, so this is not even always their fault.

You have to read exactly, before you comment.

People ask and get rejected all the time.
part of the reason people don’t ask is because they know they’ll be rejected

That is why it is only one factor and there are a couple of factor. People only mention the factors that disprivileges them. If you ask a lot of people, you are privileged on the willpower factor.

part of the reason people don’t ask is because they know they’ll be rejected

Yes that is another factor on the privilege/disprivilege scale. There are reason why they get rejected. For example, the people that they ask dont see them as attractive.

And they are hurt through rejection, so sensitivity could be another factor.

Also gays aren’t privileged their lack of chance at long term relationships cancels out any benefit of easy hookups

That is why I said they are privileged in regard to sex and added

But gay people they are disprivileged in other ways.

You have to read more clearly. It is not the case that I cannot make mistakes but the things you criticized are not even points we disagree on, you just did not understood what I wrote.

 

[Sagittarius84]

That is why it is only one factor and there are a couple of factor. People only mention the factors that disprivileges them. If you ask a lot of people, you are privileged on the willpower factor.

I think a legitimate retort to this; specifically regarding cishetero men that would be categorized or identify as involuntarily celibate, is that the willpower metric ignores real world consequences, in that beyond mere rejection and embarrassment, there can be overwhelming social and legal consequences for the unattractive and/or socially maladjusted utilizing the same greeting and interaction methods as more attractive or socially respected men.

 

[NotAfraidofHeights]

This is why prostitution should be legal everywhere. Not having sex drives some people insane.

 

[Sagittarius84]

This is why prostitution should be legal everywhere. Not having sex drives some people insane.

They'll minimize the presence of pimps and traffickers, they'll decriminalize sex work, even make it so women and LGBT folk can patronize it with the same relative freedom as rich heterosexual men...but I don't ever think major subsets of the population will ever allow middle to low income heterosexual men to be able to usurp the sexual marketplace like that without maintaining all manner of social and legal consequences.