The institutional sexism and glorified misogyny non-perpetuation thread

[justan]

For the record, I do see and acknowledge the "needed middle balance". That's why when I mentioned the movie in the first place I stated that it's not a movie that actually empowered women.

Perhaps my noted irrelevant addition to the thread was better left untyped

I think it could be casually amusing. I admit I can find the simplicity and ignorance of discrimination amusing, the passion behind it, the causes and reasons, its motivation and most of all its manifestation. I'm thinking "wow, folks be creative with this shit". Though if you look at human history, it seems to be in its nature to discriminate about anything patternistically differing from what another is presently familiar or in agreement with. Religion or spiritual beliefs are one of the most fascinating subjects I can readily think of that never fails to amaze me on how extreme folks are with it.

 

[justan]

This brings up an interesting question for me. Is it too far to get a vicarious thrill from what's meant to be a harmless outlet for entertainment when one feels oppressed and has nowhere to put that anger?

Opining on your question: It's only too far if the vicarious thrill usurps moral integrity (assuming it exists) and festers further hate that affects innocents. I don't believe it's all on our conscious to decide; our subconscious may be in opposition, unbeknown to our conscious, and may begin to influence or manifest where it sees opportunity over time. With that said, I like seeing an oppressed person or people put down their oppressor(s), no-holds-barred, but only if it doesn't exacerbate into an ongoing blind crusading vengeance as it often seems to. There's a certain satisfaction when I see an oppressed individual--especially one outmatched--exact purposeful extreme violence while maintaining the balanced discipline & restraint to know where and when to end it, with no collateral damage, and put the grudge to rest while doing so, moving on to healing, peace, and prosperity. I will never advocate blind compassion, because there are bad seeds that need to be dealt with and made examples of accordingly, passionately. I believe in "if you act like an asshole, this is how you get dealt with: you get fucked--fucked hard---without KY".

When is it implying how one should think/behave and when is it nothing more than a fantasy which can't be fulfilled in reality?

It goes back to the original topic... This conversation is rather interesting.

Interpretation is always subjective, if and how an individual can relate to it. Naturally, without proper guidance and discipline, if an individual feels oppressed and sees a portrayal of any kind matching their beliefs and ideals, fantastical or realistic, they will likely feel elation toward validation of a type. It's subjective how a distressed individual will act on it, influenced by their sense of moral chastity or integrity; I'd liken it to striking sparks amid volatile vapor: maybe there's enough vapor to combust at that particular time and location, or maybe they already sequestered the volatility (via enlightenment), purposefully allowed it to spark in a non-volatile location. I'd wager that your typical violated folk are lost to the concept of exercising restraint or compassion toward the offending propensity. It's helpful to be mindful that we are animals genetically conditioned to survive & flourish in the most direct, effective method we can comprehend and are capable of enacting, even if it comes at a detriment to the present or future of others. In the context of modern society, this manifests itself deeply. We have a primal coding to react to certain situations, which is often not applicable to what modern society mandates as acceptable. Assessing the artificial, forced evolution and devolution of our primal survival instincts (emotions) within modern civilised living is a very interesting topic in itself. It's also interesting that logic is trusted to simply trump emotion, when the opposite is the commonality. Basically, emotional training, restraint, needs to be influenced with logic and compassion. Strong-arm tactics are archaic and will never succeed without brewing resentment and creating more problems. There is nothing more empowering than true inspiration and conviction; in theory, control wouldn't be necessary if the true value of appreciation for life & liberty is impressed onto others from a young age. Blame the upbringing (or lack of) for why a person is how they are.

The only way to not allow horrors (sexism, racism, etc) to flourish is to never relent and give into facilitating them to happen in any way. As unpleasant as it sounds, victims must be willing to sacrifice their safety at any cost in order to stand up against exploitation, as it's the only way to ensure abusers have nothing to work with. Remaining passive amid wrongdoing, no matter how significant or seemingly insignificant, allows tyranny. "Give me liberty or give me death" is a belief & lifestyle any respectable being should adopt on a low-level; it's not merely some high-sounding phrase from olden time pertaining to some temporary struggle long ago; it's always been, and will be, relevant. The more difficult occurrence to deal with is how sophisticated greed & malice is evolving; it's bled into our culture and law/governance as it goes largely unchecked, obscured by the duplicity crafted by abusers who have gotten smart with their shit to keep it alive and out of plain-sight, and manipulate others to (blindly) carry out their deeds, and craft a culture around it. Preventing & ousting this occurrence is the movement of the now and the future.

Pardon the discourse, but these are people issues that are far deeper than male-female discrimination, and part of something greater that I'm working on, of which you might see in upcoming years

 

[EllieP]

It's going to take a few more generations before a good part of the patriarchic society is replaced by something more equitable, especially in the U.S. I say that looking back at women's roles in the 50s compared to today. "We've come a long way, Baby," is from a commercial I think from the 70s? Maybe earlier. I wasn't around then. But it was really the beginning of the modern women's movement. Was it more sexual dominance than sexual expression? I'm not sure.

As for the current media feeding frenzy this too shall pass. It's the raw meat du jour. The media no more cares about women's rights than the man in the moon, but it's garnering eyeballs, and that's what counts. Until women are responsible for a significant amount of money they will not be taken seriously. And that significant amount of money has to be in the form of lobbyists salaries and campaign donations.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

Is it okay though for a woman to hit a man while she is aware of the social consequences that follow if the man hits back?
.

No. It's not ever ok to hit someone unless it's in self defense. Male, female, you don't put your hands on people unless they're initiating the physical attack.

Period.

I think people took something that was meant as a random thought on the topic a bit too seriously. I never said I support women beating the shit out of men.

 

[1101550]

No. It's not ever ok to hit someone unless it's in self defense. Male, female, you don't put your hands on people unless they're initiating the physical attack.

Period.

I think people took something that was meant as a random thought on the topic a bit too seriously. I never said I support women beating the shit out of men.

My question wasn't in response to the discussion of liking Death Proof or anything. I admit it was slightly off topic and I just put it out there.

You answered it in the first half. Though my response to having a beer bottle broken over my head was out of sheer anger, I responded in such a way because I was in such disbelief someone would react so violently to what was obviously an accident, they both could hear me say sorry a hundred times as I was collecting myself. I didn't hit her because I considered her the weaker sex or with any sexist perception, I hit her out of outrage that I got hit with a beer bottle. It's not like id have hesitated if it was the guy instead.

It's because their friends noticed she was on the ground and I was overpowering her boyfriend that they started screaming out "He hit a girl! He hit a girl!”. The opening band stopped playing and screamed into the mic “get him the fuck out of here”. They all see a woman on the floor, a drunk struggling to hit me while I’m the only one bleeding with pieces of glass sticking out of my face. Yet, security and members of the crowd turned on me.

I’m not saying it is ever right to hit a woman, that was just an event from my past that I am conflicted about. Sometimes I felt my reaction was justified, sometimes I feel really bad and wonder if I caused any damage as she was on the floor for quite a bit of time while the scuffle was progressing.

I’m derailing this topic so I’ll end my little thing here.

 

[MickeyLee]

Why must there always be a guy showing up in these threads with a story about how they have been wronged by the current gender dynamic being discussed in any actual Women's Issues issue.

We get it. Sometimes men are on the shit end of a moment. Please realise that you are the minority. That most violence between genders is man on woman.

A woman's voice can stand without having to throw consider the feelings of men. Which is so difficult to do because of the gender inequality referenced in the OP.

In short stop using self-victimization to derail the damn thread.

ETA: I will be back comment on other points.i didn't stop by just to pick on Mr. Scary.

 

[1101550]

@MickeyLee

Not even once did I claim to be victim.

Regardless of being in the minority, in any civil debate EVERY perspective has the right to be be critiqued but most of all fairly heard because according to your argument- if 1 in 20 boys are targets of sexual abuse/harassment compared to 1 in 5 girls (source : http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics ) then does that mean we should focus on one over the other?

My initial question was : is it wrong for a woman to hit a man while knowing society deems it wrong for a man to hit her back as well as the dire social consequences that would follow IF he did hit back. I didn't use my example to play the victim card, in fact I expressed a little remorse for my actions.

Now, as you pointed it out, as have I that I am derailing this thread, I would really like to stop. If you really are interested in having an actual conversation about this instead of just accusing me of self victimization, we can start ANOTHER thread.

 

[950483]

@MickeyLee

Not even once did I claim to be victim.

Regardless of being in the minority, in any civil debate EVERY perspective has the right to be be critiqued but most of all fairly heard because according to your argument- if 1 in 20 boys are targets of sexual abuse/harassment compared to 1 in 5 girls (source : http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics ) then does that mean we should focus on one over the other?

My initial question was : is it wrong for a woman to hit a man while knowing society deems it wrong for a man to hit her back as well as the dire social consequences that would follow IF he did hit back. I didn't use my example to play the victim card, in fact I expressed a little remorse for my actions.

Now, as you pointed it out, as have I that I am derailing this thread, I would really like to stop. If you really are interested in having an actual conversation about this instead of just accusing me of self victimization, we can start ANOTHER thread.

In response to your initial question :
Are you fucking serious? It is wrong for a woman to hit a man because men tend to be physically stronger in general and have other advantages such as they are more likely to be wearing sensible footwear at the time. It would be a foolish thing to do. They are also more likely to have had any form of training or instruction on how to fuck someone up. It's the wrong thing to do purely it could end very badly for her.
On the other hand, if she is outmatched attacking first and having the element of surprise could be the only chance she will get. @Tight_N_Juicy yes it is okay to hit them first, but only if you can win, and only if they deserve it.
There are plenty of statistics available on gender based violence and they show that women and girls are overwhelmingly the majority of the victims.
Were you asking if it is impolite or unfair because the man would have to feel a bit embarrassed afterwards? I'm not sure I care. In the situation you described she understandably seemed to be under the impression at the time that you were initiating the assault and just reacted in pretty much the same way that you did. The people doing security do not care to hear all the ins and outs of a situation, they simply need to get the situation under control as quickly and efficiently as possible. She could well have been removed also, but taken to a different exit a few minutes later to avoid further violence. If she was on the floor as they approached then of course they removed you. I don't see that you were discriminated against in any way. Why would you even choose to believe that?

 

[1101550]

@swoon

Fair enough.

I just don't agree with the idea that just because men, on average, are physically stronger and have denser bones, that they have to still exercise restrain and are expected to just take it if they are being hit by a woman. That doesn't sound like gender equality to me. I agree more with what @Tight_N_Juicy said, and I paraphrase- woman or man just keep your hands to yourself. If we are trying to teach young men to respect women and to never raise their hand against them I'm not sure when teaching own son if I can really add the part stating "but if you ARE being hit by a woman, society expects you to just take.it"

There is no way she thought I was initiating an attack. They stood behind me because I was standing still for the 45 mins we were there, shielding them from getting bumped and hit from the people taking part in the pit. They even saw the guy who came thrashing out of the pit and they definitely saw him collide with me. If you've been to a metal show, even if it was your first, you've seen enough footage of metal concerts to know that getting bumped or pushed around is inevitable (getting hurt for the most part is avoidable).

My hand gestures were apologetic as I had them up and I said sorry at least a half dozen times I know they heard it. My response was impulsive, not thought out nor reasonable, and I admitted that. Try not to get enraged when the mistake you committed was unavoidable, when you try to apologise and see if you'll remain reasonable when the reaction is unreasonably violent. It was only hours later when I came to my senses and I hoped she wasn't seriously hurt.

I've never hit a woman since and never advocated for it saying there are justifiable times when you are able to.

Luckily I've never dated women that have hit me out of anger either, so I guess im lucky there.

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

@swoon, I disagree. No one deserves to be hit. No amount of name calling, no amount of non-physical provocation.. it's not ok to put hands on someone who isn't attacking you first.

Imagine those men who truly believe their female partners did something to "deserve it". There is a line. And it's a clear one for me. The only time violence is justified is in self defense.

 

[justan]

I've had a couple exes who seemed to like to sporadically punch me in the face for no apparent reason at all. Some time after the second chic did it six years after the first, I surmised it must be a kink girls from philly have, in the spirit of rocky balboa y'know, as the second chic first did it during sex, and must have timed that just right because it was kind of a turn on, if a bit startling. She loved being choked, so I guess it's a bedroom type personality; not my kind of kink, but I do what made her happy.

I also am told my great grandmother beat the dog shit out of her husband when he wasn't working as hard as she thought he should. Guess he should had learned to get moving at her pace.

It happens with fellas, but, depending on a woman's apparent motive, the safest thing a man can do is overpower/subdue a woman without harming her & withdraw from the situation if he can't hang with the hits, unless he is a pussy ass, or fuckin with a ninja, MMA ace, trained killer or otherwise, in which case, better take those shots as a lesson to man up and also choose your women more wisely. You don't want to play with the law where any gray area may exist and you didn't exercise the proper amount of restraint defending yourself, and that's just how it is going to be because in most cases you should be able to handle yourself against a woman without doing excessive harm to them. This brings another interesting situation: just because she gets physical on you doesn't green light you to destroy her; that'd make me wonder if you provoked her to hit you in the first place.

Getting robbed/jumped, or otherwise having your life threatened, is something else entirely; that's a genderless situation.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I punched my ex in the jaw. He was 90-100 pounds heavier than I at the time. He was tickling me. He wouldn't stop. I sensed I was becoming increasingly hysterical, stopped myself from hitting or biting several times, and warned him that I couldn't take it anymore. He persisted. My mind went blank, the world slowed, and I struggled to my feet, then landed my very best cross from my more dominant hand, with perfect follow-through and all my weight behind it. He blinked in surprise, then offered me ice for my hand. I suddenly realized what I had done, and apologized profusely. It was a panic response. Instinct. Reflex. Ever since, he teases that he'd better do as I say before the beatings start again. In turn, I gaslight him, never admitting out loud that it happened. I will look him right in the eye and tell him it must have been a bad dream.

The thing that I never forgot was how meaningless that punch was to him. I did it just how my scrappy little brother taught me. I am much bigger than my baby bro. I've seen him drop dudes much bigger than my ex with that same punch. He pretends to be walking away from a rapidly escalating situation, then he suddenly turns and lands that punch. Then he grabs his ladies (his fiancee and I) and runs. There is no pursuit. That dude is out. Yet, when I do it, it means nothing. Granted, I'm MUCH stronger now, and have some actual martial arts training. But still.

It reminds me of what my mother said. She told me to never hit a man because even one smaller than I is still faster and stronger. She said if I ever felt like hitting a man, I should just kill him. If it's not justifiable to kill him, leave him be. Then she told me the story of how she learned that by slapping some dude who fondled her, who retaliated by punching her, followed by the story of a man who followed her home from a party and forced his way into our home. She intended to beat him to death, and thought she had, but his body disappeared from our backyard, where she'd dumped it, before she decided what to do about it. She then gave me my first weapon, and showed me all the things lying around our home that I always had dismissed as random clutter, but which actually were our means of defending ourselves in case men broke in. At my house, if you can see me, I can reach something with which I know how to kill you. At any rate, when a field is unlevel, applying the same rules to all players is not necessarily fair. However, I agree that anytime anyone hits anyone, they should prepare for retaliatory action.

 

[deleted924715]

@swoon, I disagree. No one deserves to be hit. No amount of name calling, no amount of non-physical provocation.. it's not ok to put hands on someone who isn't attacking you first.

Imagine those men who truly believe their female partners did something to "deserve it". There is a line. And it's a clear one for me. The only time violence is justified is in self defense.

I could be wrong, but I think she was referring to a situation where the woman was anticipating violence against her - she knows the situation has gone south, is backed into a corner and goes on the attack to get away rather than trying to fight off an incoming attack. At least that's how I read it.

 

[deleted924715]

Personally, I'm kind of conflicted about this. I'm not a face slapper or a drink thrower, never have been and I can't remember who said this to me, but I was told once that if you hit a man like you are a man, you can expect to get hit back like you are a man. That struck me as pretty fair and I've always abided by it. I have witnessed very few women who thought they could strike with impunity simply by virtue of the fact they are a woman, but those I have seen repulse me.

That being said, I have a son, he is big and strong. I taught him that it is not ok for a girl/woman to hit him, but that while it's ok to prevent himself from being hurt, he should not retaliate ever - he should walk away. The thought of him being 'that guy' who would hit a woman makes me feel sick. It just feels so wrong on an instinctive level and I think I would feel horrified if I witnessed a man I love (be it son, father, brother, partner) hit a woman back in retaliation, to the extent that it would change how I felt about them. Then again, if I was there to witness it he wouldn't need to, because I'd knock the chick into next week.

 

[5104]

Once a dancer stuck her breast almost up to my nose at a go go bar. I knew her and doing that had long been part of her act. For some reason, probably because I was drunk and not very conscious at the moment I kissed and tongued her attractive erect nipple before I knew what I was doing. She slugged me really hard in the side of the face. It didn't faze me but while I was trying to apologize, the bouncer came-up and sucker punched me. I went sprawling over tables and chairs, still unhurt, not unconscious, but I temporarily lost my legs due to the blow. Oddly, no one noticed the marks on my face. There wasn't any swelling, though I developed small black and blue marks on my jaw and the side of my face. Maybe cuz they both hit bone without mashing much flesh.

I've seen some dancers threaten guys with spiked heels. They could "draw" their spiked heel like someone might draw their gun!

 

[wallyj84]

I noticed the Soulja Boy station only plays songs about penises. Sending the message that only a big guy can satisfy every woman.

That is the kind of positive message we need more of in music.

 

[deleted924715]

Sigh

 

[Tight_N_Juicy]

This thread had spiralled way off topic.

 

[MickeyLee]

Men. That's all I'm saying.

 

[TheRob]

I was listening to my Dr Dre station the other day and when you really stop to listen to what they say they are trashing women non stop. For the first time it really bothered me.

I noticed the Soulja Boy station only plays songs about penises. Sending the message that only a big guy can satisfy every woman.

I have to find new stations.

for me I just like to let music be music I try that for all entertainment because I mean if someone really thinks about it every movie where a guy gets hit in the groin would need a 'rape' flag at the front of it for sexual assult (touching someone's sex area without permission) but instead it is virtually always glorified in the movie or made into comedy. which should really be disturbing. or if a girl gets smacked on the ass or whatever, like that should be like a wtf moment but instead it's often treated as funny.

separate but related concepts follow:

Hollywood winds up getting a lot of passes for things. and the media who glorifies them is part to blame, Richard Gere made out with some lady I think a Bollywood star in India some years ago. What he did was in fact illegal, I don't recall if it was because of public kissing in the area or if the girl just didn't want to be kissed I don't recall that, but the media reported on it and treated it like it was an embarrassing social flub as opposed to a crime. Similar situation more recnelty with Madonna at a concert in in Australia. She pulled a girls tit out onstate, the girl didn't mind BUT the girl isn't old enough under their laws to give that kind of consent. But because Madonna is a super rich chick the media again treated it like it was nothing.
Al Franken, any Conservative the media would be demanding they step down but Leftie Franken you know he apologized what more can anyone ask in their view?
I don't appreciate the media or any faction telling me I should take something very seriously when they do anything but take the same situation seriously when it reflects poorly on people they support.

It is also very difficult for me to hear women talk about how much they need men to stand up for them when they fail to stand up for us so often. Cory Haiem was talking about this long before anyone else and Barbra Walters tried to guilt trip him because he "might cost people work" wtf is that nonsense?
I'm always glad to stand up for someone who is an ally to me as well, but I don't much care for standing up for people who through action or statements imply that I am less then they are. That doesn't mean I want them raped or anything like that but don't expect me to condemn someone based off of an acusation because the accuser happens to have a vagina.

My overall point is no one should be treated badly. But I think it needs to be taken as seriously when the victim is a guy as when the victim is a chick, but if you wait and see people will try to respond to this and imply that it's more important when it happens to women, thus implying women are more important and then at the same time wondering why men are hesitant to play the hero.