The Irish, they say ... Non!

[Mem]

Why? Well don't want to see a Federal States of Europe. Don't get me wrong, I love 'em all but I simply am not European.
.

If you live in the UK your are European, not that there's anything wrong with that.:wink::biggrin1:

You can say that you are not, but it's like a person from China saying that they are not Asian.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

NEVER NEVER NEVER! we have nothing in common, simple as. :tongue:

ps; you are, on other matters, a lot smarter than I ever assumed. Enjoy your posts(but on THIS subject you're bullshitting with false hope :tongue

Well thanks (I think) - But bullshitting? How can I be bullshitting? I have only expressed an opinion of what I would like to see and what I think is a better scenario for the future of Europe and maybe the world in general. How can telling you what I think be bullshit?

And would SOMEONE, ANYONE please answer the fucking WHY question - stop saying 'never!!', 'it just won't happen', etc. and tell me WHY you think it won't / can't / shouldn't happen.

 

[joshunot]

em, that is your opinion.

 

[dong20]

ManlyBanisters has her own opinions on this also and she is quite frankly welcome to them. It is true that few of us know the real or full content of the so called Lisbon 'Treaty'. would it have been different had we been allowed proper open consultation, I for one hope and think not.

MB was in serious danger of making sense. But then in circumstances where facts are readily available, I've never considered ignorance a defensible position, regardless of the [desired] outcome.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

There she goes again, who is Rupert Murdoch?

If that question is genuine, you are not worth debating with. If that question is your way of debating, you are not worth debating with.

Goodnight.

 

[joshunot]

yawn, yawn. Bon Soir

 

[ManlyBanisters]

MB was in serious danger of making sense. But then in circumstances where facts are readily available, I've never considered ignorance a defensible position, regardless of the [desired] outcome.

Yes - that is a fair point. You shouldn't have to spoon feed the issues or the content of a public document to the public - but in the real world, you do. If Cowen's Government wanted a Yes vote then they should have gotten out there and got the details across to the public with a positive slant, instead of the inept presentation of 'trust us, this is a good thing' that I saw presented.

 

[mattflanders]

I hope to see a federal Europe, with autonomy with the nations not the countries. The Lisbon Treaty was a good start, too bad the Irish turned it down. But the naysayers gave arguments that didn't even have to do anything with the treaty like abortion and taxes...

@Joshunot: you may not feel like you're a European, but holding the British nationality and living in Britain makes you a citizen of the EU and a European. Check you're international passport, it will tell you that you're a European in many many languages.

 

[Xcuze]

This issue really doesn't needed to be complicated; like I said..

WATCH THE EUROVISION SONG CONTEST!

 

[TurkeyWithaSunburn]

Politicians don't like to give people a true voice when it comes to these types of things. It's good that Ireland has it in their constitution a referendum on all EU treaties.

It's always good when the people in power get a slapdown

The treaty was an effort to resurrect EU reforms that were torpedoed by French and Dutch voters in 2005.
This time all countries but Ireland avoided a referendum. The "No" vote means a country with fewer than 1 percent of the EU's 490 million population could doom a treaty painstakingly negotiated by all 27 member states.
*snip*
The treaty envisages a long-term president of the European Council of EU leaders, a stronger foreign policy chief and a mutual defence pact. It was due to take effect on January 1, but cannot come into force if a single member fails to ratify it.
*snip*
Germany, France and Britain all said they would continue their efforts to ratify the treaty.
*snip*
It wasn't the first time Irish voters have shocked the EU. They almost wrecked the bloc's plans for eastward expansion in 2001 by rejecting the Nice treaty, but the government staged a second referendum in which that pact passed. The government has said it is not considering a re-run this time around.

Why waste time with a treaty that has to be approved by all the countries when at least one said NO, and won't be putting it for a vote again (at least so far they say that)?

 

[mattflanders]

What exactly does the Eurovision Song Contest have to do with this?

Europe could actually play a significant role in international politics if it got its act together, instead of this immobilism it's stuck in now. And Ireland isn't helping, so no European President or a Minister of Foreign Affairs in 2009.

 

[dong20]

Yes - that is a fair point. You shouldn't have to spoon feed the issues or the content of a public document to the public - but in the real world, you do. If Cowen's Government wanted a Yes vote then they should have gotten out there and got the details across to the public with a positive slant, instead of the inept presentation of 'trust us, this is a good thing' that I saw presented.

I entirely agree, although my secondary comment was aimed more at another poster; that if a person has not read or researched the treaty (as it appears) I find difficult to believe they can render an informed opinion on it one way or another.

Of course we're all entitled to our opinion, but on this subject, I suspect the demographic typically associated with said poster's views are more ... Sun than Guardian.

 

[Xcuze]

The politicians can do the fuck what they like but you just can't put hamsters, rabbits, chickens, pigs(!) & horses in the same pen and expect them to pretend theyre the same animal!

 

[No_Strings]

This thread has made me feel especially intelligent. Thanks guys.


MB, dong, it's been a pleasure. :tongue:

 

[mattflanders]

That's not what I meant, Joshunot. The EU should bring people together, not assimilate them into one blob. What I meant was, a federation of all the nations in Europe. Every people gets autonomy but for things that are important for all of us like defense, international relations, etc we need a consensus not 27 different opinions. It makes us look ridiculous, all this bickering.
But of course some people will never understand, and would love to continue living under the churchtower in the village...

 

[Xcuze]

This thread has made me feel especially intelligent. Thanks guys.


MB, dong, it's been a pleasure. :tongue:

...and your post has made you LOOK smug & annoying. Rope, dear?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

What exactly does the Eurovision Song Contest have to do with this?

Europe could actually play a significant role in international politics if it got its act together, instead of this immobilism it's stuck in now. And Ireland isn't helping, so no European President or a Minister of Foreign Affairs in 2009.

Actually - I like the fact that my government were willing to put this to the people, but I wish they had done a better job of an informative Yes campaign. And there's no point in blaming the Irish - the problem extends beyond this vote to the fact that France, possibly the Netherlands, certainly the UK and maybe others would have had a public No vote as well. But not due to the ACTUAL CONTENT of what is being voted on. The problem lies with the popular press making a Nationalist issue out of being anti-Federal. There has been a rise in Nationalism across the board over the last 10 - 15 years and it is putting the breaks on a decent functional European State. The Irish No vote is a symptom, not a cause.

I entirely agree, although my secondary comment was aimed more at another poster; that if a person has not read or researched the treaty (as it appears) I find difficult to believe they can render an informed opinion on it one way or another.

Of course we're all entitled to our opinion, but on this subject, I suspect the demographic typically associated with said poster's views are more ... Sun than Guardian.

Agreed - maybe if I had made my comment rhyme. or perhaps put a double-entendre in it he would have felt more inclined to agree with me...

 

[mattflanders]

Maybe my words weren't the right ones. I wasn't blaming Ireland, I meant that the Irish naysayers aren't helping in the whole process towards a stronger EU.
That minister shouldn't have said: "I didn't read it."

I'm glad there's a nationalist party in Flanders that is for a strong Flanders in a strong EU. Without Belgium is possible, with Belgium is we have to.

 

[koval]

For the record,

The No campaigners were out canvassing long before the Yes campaigners started to canvas (they were too pre-occupied with Bertie Ahern resigning and Brian Cowen becoming the new Taoiseach).

The Yes campaigners were too complaicent in thinking the Irish would vote Yes after the second Nice referendum.

The Taoiseach (Prime Minister) admitted that even he hadn't read fully Treaty of Lisbon. So why would the Irish vote for something that even their prime minister didn't understand?

The Irish were told that they must vote for the Treaty (by the government). People will never vote for something they do not understand or agree with (in this case lack of understanding)

The current government is not too popular with the Irish public (Healthcare, taxation, etc as some examples)

As for myself, I actually downloaded the full Treaty and read it before I made a decision on which way to vote from the following site:

Lisbon Treaty Referendum 2008, Lisbon treaty 2008, Lisbon Reform Treaty (it is over 200 pages long)

 

[mattflanders]

As for myself, I actually downloaded the full Treaty and read it before I made a decision on which way to vote from the following site:

Lisbon Treaty Referendum 2008, Lisbon treaty 2008, Lisbon Reform Treaty (it is over 200 pages long)

My hat's off to you. Wow

I'll definitely visit that website again, it looks very informative.