The Koch Brothers Exposed

Fuzzy_

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Wrong. The Koch brothers make they economy happen.

On the other hand, a great many of those pseudo-economists, wallowing in their tenured sinecures, tinkering with esoteric yet tragically simplistic models of what they think the economy is or should be, are clueless.

Well, since you're a real economist, please explain to us how the Koch brothers "make the economy happen."

It seems to Fuzzy that the economy existed long before the big, fat Koch's whipped theirs out.

The Kochs inherited their fortune from daddy and now the greedy fuckers are suing each other for more of the pie. Not only did they not create their fortune but they are whining about having to pay high taxes.

The Kochs are a wonderful example of nepotism and that Capitalism is just economic chance.
 
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deleted213967

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The Kochs are a wonderful example of nepotism and that Capitalism is just economic chance.

Alternatively, you are just a tragic example of the economic illiteracy and pathetic neo-Marxist agitprop that infect the lower echelons of the public schooling system.
 

Fuzzy_

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Alternatively, you are just a tragic example of the economic illiteracy and pathetic neo-Marxist agitprop that infect the lower echelons of the public schooling system.

Amusing.

Meanwhile, Fuzzy is still waiting for you to explain how the Koch brothers make the economy happen. Also, please explain how Fuzzy is economically illiterate. These are two claims that you've failed to support. Fuzzy will wait patiently. So far, you're just blowing smoke.
 
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deleted213967

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Amusing.

please explain how Fuzzy is economically illiterate.

1. An adult who refers to himself in the third person.

2. An adult who oozes such invidious statements as "Capitalism is just economic chance."

QED.

Fortunately, "lucky" "capitalists" can have their progeny escape the reach of the educational mediocracy by establishing their primary residence in the right ZIP code...or paying for private school.

Phew!
 

b.c.

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Amusing.

Meanwhile, Fuzzy is still waiting for you to explain how the Koch brothers make the economy happen. Also, please explain how Fuzzy is economically illiterate. These are two claims that you've failed to support. Fuzzy will wait patiently. So far, you're just blowing smoke.

Hell, he hasn't supported any of the OTHERS claims. Why should he start now??

I personally don't mind "smoke blowing" so long as it's up their own a*****.

But Fuzzy best not wait TOO patiently. :wink:
 

Klingsor

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Fortunately, "lucky" "capitalists" can have their progeny escape the reach of the educational mediocracy by establishing their primary residence in the right ZIP code...or paying for private school.

Yes, the short-sighted, diminishing-returns solution adopted by the affluent for decades. It hasn't done much good except for a steadily shrinking, ever more insulated privileged minority.
 
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deleted213967

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Yes, the short-sighted, diminishing-returns solution adopted by the affluent for decades. It hasn't done much good except for a steadily shrinking, ever more insulated privileged minority.

Who could blame the parents?

For the second time I came across a book passage noting that graduates in the discipline of Education had some of the lowest SAT scores.

Although I have no doubts that there are still many exemplary teachers, the bar for (public) teaching credentials is set so low as to virtually guarantee wholesale mediocrity...

...and the tight grip of the unions on the teaching cartel shields the abundant dead wood from termination, and prevents good teachers and teachers in STEM fields from being rewarded according to natural market laws.

Media resources are strewn with stories of teachers who have committed acts unmentionable on this forum, but cannot be fired.

I am unclear what you mean by "affluent". Most real estate resources make not so subtle references to the school district associated with real estate properties.

Moving to the right school district is very much a middle class sport.
 

h0neymustard

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Whenever you guys want to blame the Kochs on anything, just use this gif:
6MiHMhd.gif
 

Klingsor

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Who could blame the parents?

For the second time I came across a book passage noting that graduates in the discipline of Education had some of the lowest SAT scores.

Although I have no doubts that there are still many exemplary teachers, the bar for (public) teaching credentials is set so low as to virtually guarantee wholesale mediocrity...

...and the tight grip of the unions on the teaching cartel shields the abundant dead wood from termination, and prevents good teachers and teachers in STEM fields from being rewarded according to natural market laws.

Media resources are strewn with stories of teachers who have committed acts unmentionable on this forum, but cannot be fired.

I am unclear what you mean by "affluent". Most real estate resources make not so subtle references to the school district associated with real estate properties.

Moving to the right school district is very much a middle class sport.

I don't blame parents for moving to a better neighborhood, but the so-called "white flight" is hardly a solution for society's ills. In the grand scheme of things, educational shortcomings in this country need to be addressed, not evaded.
 
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deleted213967

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I don't blame parents for moving to a better neighborhood, but the so-called "white flight" is hardly a solution for society's ills. In the grand scheme of things, educational shortcomings in this country need to be addressed, not evaded.

They are being addressed at least in part by a number of popular charter school ballot proposals at the local level.

The US already spends (squanders) more money per pupil than any other nation, and has not much to show for it, but dismal test results and illiteracy rates.

The solution is NOT to throw more good money after bad money, but to reward good schools and good teachers and manage out the failing ones.

Teacher unions which put their political interest and constituents' well-being above the mission of teaching must be broken.

...and yes students and their parents are responsible for their own education as well.

Educational excellence FOR LESS MONEY PER PUPIL is not lacking abroad (East Asia in particular), so we have plenty of exotic models to seek inspiration from.
 

Jjz1109

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I don't blame parents for moving to a better neighborhood, but the so-called "white flight" is hardly a solution for society's ills. In the grand scheme of things, educational shortcomings in this country need to be addressed, not evaded.

Pretty obvious statement, but what do you suggest? Dom has touched upon charter schools, others have suggested vouchers, both of which have been vilified by teachers unions and many here on this site as an attack from conservatives. Why is it political to want better teachers /schools, introducing teacher evaluations, and offering rewards to those teachers / schools getting the best results? This is why our education system is in the sorry state it is.
 

Klingsor

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Pretty obvious statement, but what do you suggest? Dom has touched upon charter schools, others have suggested vouchers, both of which have been vilified by teachers unions and many here on this site as an attack from conservatives. Why is it political to want better teachers /schools, introducing teacher evaluations, and offering rewards to those teachers / schools getting the best results? This is why our education system is in the sorry state it is.

It's fine to want better teachers and schools, but I would be cautious about teacher evaluations falling into a once-size-fits-all mold (similar to the "teaching to the test" bind produced by No Child Left Behind). And while rewarding the best schools and teachers may have some validity, you'd have to avoid the trap of simply furthering disparities already in place.
 

Jjz1109

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It's fine to want better teachers and schools, but I would be cautious about teacher evaluations falling into a once-size-fits-all mold (similar to the "teaching to the test" bind produced by No Child Left Behind). And while rewarding the best schools and teachers may have some validity, you'd have to avoid the trap of simply furthering disparities already in place.

One would assume certain tweaking and adjustments would be necessary. But the unions would fight to the death, as they have, to protect mediocrity and our cycle will continue. . .
 

Klingsor

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One would assume certain tweaking and adjustments would be necessary. But the unions would fight to the death, as they have, to protect mediocrity and our cycle will continue. . .

Honestly, I'd have to look into this more closely to see if that indeed appears to be what the unions want. It doesn't seem likely on the face of it, but I'm no expert on the subject.
 

b.c.

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It's fine to want better teachers and schools, but I would be cautious about teacher evaluations falling into a once-size-fits-all mold (similar to the "teaching to the test" bind produced by No Child Left Behind). And while rewarding the best schools and teachers may have some validity, you'd have to avoid the trap of simply furthering disparities already in place.

Honestly, I'd have to look into this more closely to see if that indeed appears to be what the unions want. It doesn't seem likely on the face of it, but I'm no expert on the subject.

Here's the deal, Klingsor. One of the problems unions and others have with vouchers, evaluations, and what constitutes failing schools is that the non public schools aren't evaluated by the same criteria as public schools and public charters.

Fact is, many private and parochial schools pay teachers far less than their public school counterparts, with little or no benefits OR protections from unwarranted punitive actions from their respective administrations.

HERE'S a question for those here who've argued about the quality of MEDICAL care as related to a doctor's salary:

How many GOOD teachers do you expect would choose to work for a lot less than they COULD earn?

That all private and parochial schools are necessarily BETTER than any public school is an assumption, based upon the foolish premise that they'd HAVE to be because it's PAID for. Correction... some pay... some get "vouchers".

The objection being, private and parochial schools aren't required to PROVE it, via the SAME testing, performance goals, and statistical DATA, required of the public ones.

http://www.greatschools.org/find-a-...omparing-private-public-school-test-scores.gs
 
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Jjz1109

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And there you have it. Continued refusal to accept any margin of compromise, refusal to give an inch, on the fact that charter schools and vouchers could work for some people. Private / parochial schools, in spite of having to manage to a budget (what, we can't keep increasing property taxes?) continue to provide a disciplined, consistent, and safe learning environment often not available in many public schools. Is every school superior? No, of course not. But it's all about choice. And that choice generates competition because otherwise, they have to close their doors. And some do. When was the last time you heard of a public school closing due to poor perforce? Right. Laughable. It's the gift that just keeps on giving.

The fact is that many teachers prefer to work in a private, parochial, charter school environment, in spite of lower salaries, is because they don't have to deal with the bs in public schools. Parents are more engaged, the kids want to be there, and the teachers are doing what they love - - teaching those who want to learn. In NYC and Newark this past fall, parents lined up overnight to get their children into charter schools. The saddest thing is seeing those parents literally in tears when their kids don't make the cut due to limited space. But every year, the parents continue to line up for the cherished spots.

So why do teachers want to go into pupil schools? Because they have the unions protecting them from any fear of firing, reprimand (ever hear the term rubber rooms?), and can coast through life without any effort. It's pure socialism. Don't get better than that, sucking the teet of a failing system that just keeps getting bigger, more costly, and continues to fail on a global level.
 

Fuzzy_

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Fortunately, "lucky" "capitalists" can have their progeny escape the reach of the educational mediocracy by establishing their primary residence in the right ZIP code...or paying for private school.

Success in a capitalistic society is just luck. Capitalism is chaotic, disorganized, aberrant and unfair.

"Well I came up with that a long, long time ago to describe the situation that – I was lucky. I was born in the United States. The odds were 30 or 40-to-1 against that. I had some lucky genes. I was born at the right time. If I’d been born thousands of years ago I’d be some animal’s lunch because I can’t run very fast or climb trees. So there’s so much chance in how we enter the world." ~~ Warren Buffett

Now don't get Fuzzy wrong: Fuzzy has befitted from capitalism as a business owner. However, this fact doesn't make capitalism any more or less fair.
 

b.c.

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And there you have it. Continued refusal to accept any margin of compromise, refusal to give an inch, on the fact that charter schools and vouchers could work for some people. Private / parochial schools, in spite of having to manage to a budget (what, we can't keep increasing property taxes?) continue to provide a disciplined, consistent, and safe learning environment often not available in many public schools. Is every school superior? No, of course not. But it's all about choice. And that choice generates competition because otherwise, they have to close their doors. And some do. When was the last time you heard of a public school closing due to poor perforce? Right. Laughable. It's the gift that just keeps on giving.

The fact is that many teachers prefer to work in a private, parochial, charter school environment, in spite of lower salaries, is because they don't have to deal with the bs in public schools. Parents are more engaged, the kids want to be there, and the teachers are doing what they love - - teaching those who want to learn. In NYC and Newark this past fall, parents lined up overnight to get their children into charter schools. The saddest thing is seeing those parents literally in tears when their kids don't make the cut due to limited space. But every year, the parents continue to line up for the cherished spots.

So why do teachers want to go into pupil schools? Because they have the unions protecting them from any fear of firing, reprimand (ever hear the term rubber rooms?), and can coast through life without any effort. It's pure socialism. Don't get better than that, sucking the teet of a failing system that just keeps getting bigger, more costly, and continues to fail on a global level.

And there you have it, a whole lot of presumptions about something about which you obviously know little of.

True, charter schools could and DO work for people. And nothing wrong with CHOICE, just choose to pay for it (WE did). True some prefer to work in parochial and private schools, but some do because they aren't CERTIFIED to work elsewhere. True they provide a greater degree of discipline than their public counterparts, but that's only because they have greater leeway at choosing who the admit in the FIRST place, and more options at removing who they DO NOT, whereas public schools are hogtied by all kinds of limitations, litigation, and regulations regarding discipline, expulsions, promotion policies, etc.

Contrary to what YOU say above, public schools have to demonstrate (in this state at least) continuous academic progress above that of prior years, or face actions such as restructuring AND closure. Private schools don't even have to PUBLISH their test results.

And contrary to the usual bigoted stereotypes, there are [students] in public schools who "want to learn" too, bud. And teachers who want to teach.
 
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