the lord of the gay ring

[Pecker]

Back in the days when these novels were written (1930's for The Hobbit, 1940's & 50's for LOTR) it was not unusual at all for heterosexual men to sleep in the same bed, or to show outward signs of affection (such as hugging, draping an arm over the other's shoulder as they walked) or for the male of the species to express love for oneanother. All this without the least concern about propriety.

Only after homosexuality became more prevalent in our society did men start separating themselves from certain actions/situations to differentiate between lifestyles.

LOTR depicts an innocence we have long lost in the U.S.

Sad for us. But it makes the movies all the more epic.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=roedhunt link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=0#19 date=01/23/04 at 05:34:24] Just because a man has genuine feelings for another man doesnt make him gay or less than a man.
I, myself have women friends I would die for and I love them more deeply than any man. But I am 100% str8.[/quote]

That was my point. There is nothing in the LotR movies that made me think that the characters were gay. Certainly nothing to support easy's declaration that "they all were definetly [sic] gay." (Side note: Why is it so hard to spell definitely correctly? This is not a slam on easy ... it's just tat I seem to see it spelled 'definetly' and 'definately' more frequently than the correct way. Is this something that's going to be driving me up the wall while I'm teaching freshman English?)

Perhaps people see things in a way where they wish it to be.   :

Exactly.

 

[B_RoysToy]

Since you brought it up, DMW, I see "separate" misspelled (seperate) as often as definite or definitely.

I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from posting, nor put anyone under 'pressure' in their typing, but come on, guys, give some thought to some of these common mistakes.

Also, it's so easy to keep the use of "lie" and "lay" correct. We lie down ourselves, but we lay down a book. . . . and to think, all this instruction is free!

Too embarrassed to sign my name!

 

[13788]

mindseye: [quote author=Pecker link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#20 date=01/23/04 at 06:24:35]Back in the days when these novels were written (1930's for The Hobbit, 1940's & 50's for LOTR) it was not unusual at all for heterosexual men to sleep in the same bed, or to show outward signs of affection (such as hugging, draping an arm over the other's shoulder as they walked) or for the male of the species to express love for oneanother. All this without the least concern about propriety.[/quote]

Then again, back in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's, a man could be involuntarily institutionalized if he 'came out', so it was also not unusual for homosexual men to claim to be straight. So how do you know that all of this contact was between heterosexual men?

I'll concede that there's nothing in the film that absolutely clinches for me that Sam and Frodo were definitely gay; but I also believe the movie left it as an open possibility.

Certainly the most damning argument against easy's claim, though, has to be that we have no reason to believe that hobbit sexuality is anything at all like human sexuality; hobbits may not identify with their biological gender as strongly as we do, for example.

 

[13788]

roedhunt: [quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#23 date=01/23/04 at 10:40:25]

Certainly the most damning argument against easy's claim, though, has to be that we have no reason to believe that hobbit sexuality is anything at all like human sexuality; hobbits may not identify with their biological gender as strongly as we do, for example.  [/quote]

That is absolutely true. Another point is that not all men represent themselves as American men do. For example, when I was stationed in Germany, the men were extremely affectionate with each other (especially when they were drunk.. which was all the time at night ) All the German women I met was also affectionate, but was also more assertive and aggressive than the men. I suppose that the men were like that because they were just more comfortable with their sexuality than American men....

I think in America, we have become paranoid and obsessed with each other’s sexuality. Labeling, stereotyping, advertising.. Why does a persons sexuality have to be represented in their personality... The world may never know...... :-/

 

[13788]

easy_eros: i regret to even opening this topic!!! it was supposed to be a funny comment, didn't know so many people would react so strongly! ;D ;D

okay so the hobbits arent gay theyre just super affectionate!

i apologize for the wrong spelling too!

but legolas is still hot! and he's definitely gay in my fantasy!

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: [quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#23 date=01/23/04 at 10:40:25]

Then again, back in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's, a man could be involuntarily institutionalized if he 'came out', so it was also not unusual for homosexual men to claim to be straight.  So how do you know that all of this contact was between heterosexual men?

I'll concede that there's nothing in the film that absolutely clinches for me that Sam and Frodo were definitely gay; but I also believe the movie left it as an open possibility.

Certainly the most damning argument against easy's claim, though, has to be that we have no reason to believe that hobbit sexuality is anything at all like human sexuality; hobbits may not identify with their biological gender as strongly as we do, for example.  [/quote]

Although I dont agree with easy on the movie being anywhere near gay,...I do agree on that it was just a funny comment.

Discussions to this extent on if the movie was gay or not or if Hobbits could be gay....comeon guys! I highky doubt Tolkien was thinking about a gay undercurrent in his fanatsyfilled (the innocent way) epic.

I am more than positive Pecker is right...we more and more have alost an innocence which in my view is not something to cheer about. Im 24 and I can even see it with on the ten year old kids on my block.

But thats besides the point...the LOTR could be gay...(but only if Tolkien was) and it couldbe straight....it could also just be a movie that is fun to watch,and that in my knowledge never showed any skin let alone it had a sexual unercurrent (of any kind).

 

[13788]

wvalady1968: [quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=0#12 date=01/22/04 at 10:56:50]

No offense intended.  This is something I'm a little defensive about -- movies can show a man and a woman interacting together, even without overt sexual connotations, and the critics will describe it as a romantic comedy.  We're invited to assume these participants are straight, and that assumption isn't questioned.  

I'm bothered, for example, that in My Fair Lady, people often infer (and in fact, rarely question) that Henry Higgins has heterosexual romantic feelings for Eliza Doolittle, even though...

• the most he ever says about her is that he's "accustomed" to her face,
• when she returns at the end of the movie, he offers not even a handshake; instead, he asks her to get his slippers,
• he's never been married and indeed openly mocks the idea of marriage ("I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling, than to ever let a woman in my life!"),
• for many years he's maintained a friendship with a man he's invited to stay with him (and who accepted without hesistation),
• and he bursts into song every now and then!  

Eliza's sexual orientation was explicitly brought up in the movie; Higgins' never was.  Why isn't this movie seen more often for what it really is -- Queer Eye For The Flower Girl?

So in Return of the King, we see a loving and deep affection between two male characters -- neither of whom have a competing female interest.  Then when a viewer infers that these characters might be gay, not an hour later someone else comes along to question that inference.  Your question didn't even acknowledge that there might be room or ambiguity, you saw "nothing remotely 'gay'" -- and even enclosed the word gay in quotes.  

When pressed further, you chose the crass "[taste that] hobbit hardon" to characterize gay affection.  Is that what it takes to let viewers know that these characters are gay?

The timing and the wording reminded me uncomfortably much of the defensive denials we often hear from people who equate 'gay' with 'bad'.  To me, it's no less reasonable to infer that Sam and Frodo are gay, than it is to assume they're not.[/quote]

Very well thought out and verbalized, Heath.

 

[jonb]

[quote author=easy link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#25 date=01/24/04 at 06:34:24]i regret to even opening this topic!!! it was supposed to be a funny comment, didn't know so many people would react so strongly! ;D ;D

okay so the hobbits arent gay theyre just super affectionate!  [/quote]
Don't be surprised. No one in American society seems to understand that two men can bond without sex being involved.

Oh, and I can think of some parody porn names for LOTR better than 'Lord of the Gay Ring'.

 

[13788]

mistergrasso: Easy, are you causing trouble? Don't regret the comment. It was funny and fun and quite adorable. Like you. And Merry and Pippin are definitely lovers. Anyone can see it.

[quote author=easy link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#25 date=01/24/04 at 06:34:24]i regret to even opening this topic!!! it was supposed to be a funny comment, didn't know so many people would react so strongly! ;D ;D

okay so the hobbits arent gay theyre just super affectionate!  

i apologize for the wrong spelling too!

but legolas is still hot! and he's definitely gay in my fantasy! [/quote]

 

[Pecker]

[quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=0#12 date=01/22/04 at 10:56:50]I'm bothered, for example, that in My Fair Lady, people often infer (and in fact, rarely question) that Henry Higgins has heterosexual romantic feelings for Eliza Doolittle, even though...

• the most he ever says about her is that he's "accustomed" to her face,
• when she returns at the end of the movie, he offers not even a handshake; instead, he asks her to get his slippers,
• he's never been married and indeed openly mocks the idea of marriage ("I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling, than to ever let a woman in my life!"),
• for many years he's maintained a friendship with a man he's invited to stay with him (and who accepted without hesistation),
• and he bursts into song every now and then!  

Eliza's sexual orientation was explicitly brought up in the movie; Higgins' never was.  Why isn't this movie seen more often for what it really is -- Queer Eye For The Flower Girl?[/quote]

Indeed, Mindseye, Mr. Shaw expressed his wishes that if his play were to be performed on stage or screen that Higgins not marry Eliza at the end, since, he insisted, Henry Higgins does not fall in love with Eliza Doolittle, and, he stressed, this was not a romantic story (to say nothing of the scandal such a pairing would cause in Edwardian England.)

 

[jonb]

Yeah, and Frodo and Sam would make a cute couple.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: [quote author=mistergrasso link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#29 date=01/24/04 at 18:32:53]Easy, are you causing trouble?  Don't regret the comment.  It was funny and fun and quite adorable.  Like you.  And Merry and Pippin are definitely lovers.  Anyone can see it.
[/quote]

Geez Lousie...Im so naive...here I was thinking I was watching an epic trilogy on castles, dwarfs, elves, and talking trees...when in reality, the those eleven hours were about Sams secret affection for Frodo!

Silly me...what wás I thinking!?

Tolkien...it seems the world has mistaken you...I apologize on their behalf...in effect it seems that a minority of fairies had it right all along!

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

If you guys want to believe that Frodo and Sam were gay lovers and Merry and Pippin were involved in an incestuous relationship, I guess that's your perogative, But I can assure you that was not J.R.R. Tolkien's nor Peter Jackson's intent. At the moment, The Lord of the Rings holds a special importance for me. Due to the popularity of the movie, the school where I will be teaching has opted to let incoming freshmen read the LotR trilogy in place of the usual required summer reading selections if they prefer. I will be teaching the class for those who choose to do so. We will discuss the differences between the books and the movies in class. The hobbits' possible sexual orientation will not be a topic of discussion, I assure you!
(BTW ... Sam did have a female love interest; he was engaged to Rose Cotton before he ever set off with Frodo.)

 

[13788]

mindseye: [quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#33 date=01/25/04 at 10:05:36]If you guys want to believe that Frodo and Sam were gay lovers and Merry and Pippin were involved in an incestuous relationship, I guess that's your perogative, But I can assure you that was not J.R.R. Tolkien's nor Peter Jackson's intent. [/quote]

I think you've overstated the case I was trying to make. I agree that for Tolkien, this was a non-issue; and further, that Jackson did nothing to imply that their affection was ever consummated. I would not (and did not) go so far as to call Frodo and Sam "lovers". I still believe, however, that Sam's motivation for willingly going along with Frodo and being his 'companion' for the entire journey was made ambiguous in the movie -- and that especially someone who was not also familiar with the book might infer that Sam was driven by more than a mere sense of loyalty.

P.S. "prerogative". (You know I'm kiding! )

 

[13788]

tomarctus: Now I have to see the movies. Yes, call me slow. I don't get out much. But really, I just didn't take the time to go to the theater. Now I need to rent parts one and two before seeing part three.
I read the books many years ago so I'm sure I will enjoy the flick.
This justs adds one more elemt to watch for.

 

[jonb]

I was just saying Frodo and Sam would make a cute couple. Merry and Pippin as a couple is...eww...

 

[Pecker]

[quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#34 date=01/25/04 at 10:34:41]I still believe, however, that Sam's motivation for willingly going along with Frodo and being his 'companion' for the entire journey was made ambiguous in the movie -- and that especially someone who was not also familiar with the book might infer that Sam was driven by more than a mere sense of loyalty.[/quote]

It wasn't as detailed as in the book but at the end of The Fellowship... movie Sam did tell Frodo that he'd promised Gandalf that he'd take care of Frodo on his quest.

And the word of a Hobbit was an oath of honor.

All seriousness aside, I did notice that in all their travels nobody ever stopped to pee.  I guess Tolkien left that bodily function to Hemingway novels.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

I'm not gay, but I didn't see any gay undertones in it. The only hint I can think of is that the female characters are mostly afterthoughts in the story. (In the book it's even more so. The movies enhanced the Liv Tyler character to a level far greater than in the book.) But the whole men-fighting-together thing seemed more about camaraderie and perseverance than homosexuality.

I liked the other comment about people seeing what they want to see. I think it's funny how a lot of gay men seem to want Tom Cruise to be gay, but they didn't do many cartwheels for John Gielgud or Ian McKellen. Not cute enough I guess.

Now X-Men 2, that movie had a lot more gay undertones than the first one did.

 

[B_RoysToy]

[quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=99;num=1074706287;start=20#33 date=01/25/04 at 10:05:36]
(BTW ... Sam did have a female love interest; he was engaged to Rose Cotton before he ever set off with Frodo.)[/quote]

I'm not beginning to argue the point one way or the other, but this statement does bring to mind my personal history: I was married 29 years and we raised three children and during all that time and 'activity' I was, am, and always will be gay.