The Papal Resignation

Drifterwood

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Do you think we have the truth? Do you think we will ever know the whole truth?

Several of us have been vociferous regarding the failings and crimes of the Catholic Church. I would just like to say that I bear no ill will to individual catholics and hope the criticisms of the institution are not mistakenly taken personally.
 

ConanTheBarber

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There's no way of knowing whether we have, or will ever have, the truth on this matter.
But I see no reason to doubt that Benedict is resigning for the reason given -- old age and declining health.
He always said his would be a short papacy.
What other reason might there be?

Are you suggesting that someone is forcing the pope out of office?
Or perhaps that he has had a crisis of faith and cannot any longer pretend to believe in the Petrine succession?
Both possible, I suppose.

But he is a man who had a stroke two decades ago, has known heart problems, and is of an age at which the body's betrayals accelerate.
Perhaps he is simply exceptionally rational and sees that his growing incapacities (if we take him at his word) suggest that a shrugging off of his responsibilities are best both for him and the church he leads.
If that's the case, then the world needs more like him.
Dunno.
 
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798686

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I agree - I'm sure most Catholics are extremely well-meaning and sincere. It's just the institution I'm extremely critical of.

Hope we don't end up with someone worse than the current Pope - perhaps someone who would hijack the European Project in the name of peace and cohesion (as happened so many times with the Roman Empire/Austro-Hungairan/Napoleanic/Frankish kingdom, etc)?
 
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ConanTheBarber

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Hope we don't end up with someone worse than the current Pope - perhaps someone who would hijack the European Project in the name of peace and cohesion (as happened so many times with the Roman Empire/Ottoman/Napoleanic/Frankish kingdom, etc)?
In most of (relatively secular) Europe, I don't think any pope would assume he had the power to attempt that without provoking derision.

If the pope still has power, it's mostly in the developing world, I'd bet.
 
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798686

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I dunno - many still see Europe as a Christian club (hence the desire to keep Turkey out - altho there are other reasons for that, also).

The Catholic Church has always been involved in the EU Project to a certain degree - with many prominent catholics (such as Adenauer, Schuman, Monnet, Delors, de Gasperi, Kohl, Barroso, etc) leading the project and some, such as Prodi, have imagined a future role for the church

Europe is extremely secular at the moment (Western Europe, at least), but who knows?
 
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798686

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Always good to ask, Who knows?
But every instinct I have tells me that religious belief in Europe won't reassert itself.
I get where you're coming from, but I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this, and wait and see how it turns out! :p

I'm basically going on the way things have happened over the past 2,000 years lol, although we live in a much more informed society now - and also on Europe's reaction to Islamic extremism, etc.

In Poland and places like that the RC Church still has a lot of sway - and to a certain extent in Spain and Italy, although recent government decisions have tended to go against the Vatican.
 

Drifterwood

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Perhaps he is simply exceptionally rational and sees that his growing incapacities (if we take him at his word) suggest that a shrugging off of his responsibilities are best both for him and the church he leads.

They are not normal responsibilities. He is God's infallible representative on Earth. Can you have two infallibles at the same time? How do you stop being infallible? As Joll said, the last time this happened was 600 years ago to stop a schism, since then whatever crises there have been, have been managed behind very closed doors.

This is why we ask what is really going on. We're just not used to there being no sub plot of machinations from the vatican.
 

HUNGHUGE11X7

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I agree - I'm sure most Catholics are extremely well-meaning and sincere. It's just the institution I'm extremely critical of.
, etc)?


As one of my best friends always says, "I don't have a problem with Jesus but his fanatical followers scare me"
I find it peculiar that the majority of them here in the south turn a blind eye and ear to the very teachings of their "saviour" !!!


I am not familiar with the Papal resignation, it must be something that came out recently, but if it came from the Nazi pope Palpatine I will definitely take it with a grain of salt.
If anyone in the Hitler youth told me the Sun was shining, I would have to step outside to see for myself.


:bj:
HH
 

EllieP

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Sorry if I put this news in the same category as Brad and Angelina, but it hardly has any effect on my life. Organized religions will always attempt to influence politics regardless of who is in charge.

I did read that he had planned to retire before he was elected pope.

One of my Catholic friends... what? yes, I have Catholic friends!... told me that the conclave of cardinals invoke the holy spirit to elect a new pope. So I'm wondering if the holy spirit changed his mind? Or did Benedict lose the spirit?

I thought when you resigned you tendered your resignation to your superior. Wonder who gets his letter? Oh yeah, the board of directors in the case of a CEO.
 

ConanTheBarber

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I get where you're coming from, but I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this, and wait and see how it turns out! :p

I'm basically going on the way things have happened over the past 2,000 years lol, although we live in a much more informed society now - and also on Europe's reaction to Islamic extremism, etc.

In Poland and places like that the RC Church still has a lot of sway - and to a certain extent in Spain and Italy, although recent government decisions have tended to go against the Vatican.
I think even in Spain and Italy, far fewer people go to Mass.
The spell is broken, I think.
However, Joll ... I won't pretend I can predict the future.

They are not normal responsibilities. He is God's infallible representative on Earth. Can you have two infallibles at the same time? How do you stop being infallible? As Joll said, the last time this happened was 600 years ago to stop a schism, since then whatever crises there have been, have been managed behind very closed doors.

This is why we ask what is really going on. We're just not used to there being no sub plot of machinations from the vatican.
When he resigns, he is no longer God's infallible representative.
(Great job description, innit?)

It makes great sense to wonder what machinations are going on behind the scenes.
But we have to keep room for the possibility that there are none.
 

rbkwp

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Always loved the big boy Pope

Pope John
(and his magical popemobile)

looked the part

exuded serenity, without trying ..

this fella was always dicey to me
maybe he never wanted it anyway, just inherited the role?
 

vince

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As one of my best friends always says, "I don't have a problem with Jesus but his fanatical followers scare me"
I find it peculiar that the majority of them here in the south turn a blind eye and ear to the very teachings of their "saviour" !!!


I am not familiar with the Papal resignation, it must be something that came out recently, but if it came from the Nazi pope Palpatine I will definitely take it with a grain of salt.
If anyone in the Hitler youth told me the Sun was shining, I would have to step outside to see for myself.


:bj:
HH
HH that is a very hateful thing to write and I reported it. We are discussing it in the moderator's forum.

Other members, please don't post in a similar vein.
 

CUBE

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I wouldn't be surprised if there is some other story on this exit. What are you titled after you leave this post? Are you a cardinal again? Where do you live? I have no idea.
 

Over-reaching

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They are not normal responsibilities. He is God's infallible representative on Earth.
Well, even the Roman Catholic church maintains that the Pope is infallible only when speaking "ex cathedra". Since the doctrine of papal infallibility was declared in 1870, the only time the Pope has definitely spoken "ex cathedra" was in 1950, when the bodily assumption of the Virgin Mary was declared by the Pope to an article of faith for Roman Catholics

I am not familiar with the Papal resignation, it must be something that came out recently, but if it came from the Nazi pope Palpatine I will definitely take it with a grain of salt.
If anyone in the Hitler youth told me the Sun was shining, I would have to step outside to see for myself.
The announcement was made only today.

I don't really think one can reasonably say that about a teenager who joined the Hitler Youth. He probably did not, realistically, have a lot of choice. While it would no doubt have been admirable for him to have declined to join (and possibly thereby to alienate himself from his parents and even possibly to invite incarceration at some point), I don't think we can say that his joining means that he was aligned politically or idealogically with Hitler or the National Socialists (Nazis). It is hardly in the same category as having been an active Nazi functionary as an adult.