The politics forum is changing!

[Kotchanski]

With all due respect, hy wouldn't it be something that you want? Perhaps post a Sticky that would serve as a warning to refresh ourselves with the TOS, and that a crackdown or stricter enforcing of the rules would be in effect. Just my two cents

Because if we did that without discussion or adequate warning, the mod forum would be flooded with moronic reports of every tiny complaint anyone has ever had since the forum started, and I'd get a very bad headache trying to sort out which ones are current and which ones are pointless!!

Seriously though, if we were to just say "Fuck it, if this was in another section we'd ban him" out of the blue after so long, a vast number of people would be banned while clearly being delightful members every where but here.

We want this to be a joint venture with the membership, we want them to know and discuss what changes they feel are required and what if any exceptions they feel may be needed for this forum from the rest of the site.

We're not saying each and every suggestion will be put in place (several are going to be contradictions of each other anyway) but we don't want to steam roller all over the forum and have otherwise good members thrown out because with all the history here, they couldn't find the line.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

The $10,000 question is why it is moderated any differently than the rest of the website; I'm not being disingenuous. I really don't know.

Good point. Well it is politics and politics often gets heated. That is the best way i can answer that. However it's gotten a bit out of hand. Rather than dwell on questions about this or that only complicates matters when there is no need too. All they are asking is we tone it down. I have to make a point here. This is one example of why i love this site so much. They are asking not telling. So as i've said there is a easy solution to the problem. Tone it down.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Where are the rules posted that are enforced in the rest of the forum?

edit: I just this moment found this link after searching for quite some time...
http://www.lpsg.org/165590-lpsg-terms-of-service-sept.html

Is this all there is, and if so, why isn't this a forumwide announcement, instead of a sticky in a subforum that I bet at least half of the members never look at? (In over 2 years of membership, I've swear on my daughter that I've never once gone into the 'member introductions' forum until about 5 minutes ago. Why would I, unless I wanted to read pointless introductions from noobs? Isn't that what the bio area of a User Homepage is for anyways?)

 

[Bbucko]

That started with on a very slippery slope.

When the first reports came in about the forum it was moderated like any other, but in all fairness it wasn't all that bad back then. As it become more popular however, naturally more problems were being reported.

It starts with silly complaints that are essentially people reporting each other for nothing more than having a different opinion than their own, which obviously is dismissed and no action taken. Trends begin to form though, and soon what it becomes a case of six of one, half a dozen of the other, and what else where might seem like a serious issue because "Well that's just politics for you"

Thank you: that's more-or-less what I expected. I sincerely appreciate your frank and open reply.

As was stated in the opening, we take responsibility for having let this become the issue it has, and agree that not only should it not have happened but that it needs to change. At this point though, to suddenly start enforcing the site rules here as we do elsewhere would see a number of members warned and temp banned, if not banned outright, which is something none of us want.

A little spring cleaning, consistently and transparently applied would do this forum a world of good. Especially when the ratio of "heated" to rational posts is so ridiculously askew since you asked.

This thread is both an announcement of impending change, and a sounding board for the opinions of those who either already use it or would like to if things were a little less heated (feel free to read heated as "bitchy" "aggressive" "offensive" or "childish" depending on which threads you happen to have read lately)

During these discussions we will be taking a harsher view towards things like the changing of users names within threads, editing quotes to suit your needs and the likes. By the end of these discussions, we hope to have a better understanding of what the members themselves want, so that we can tie those in to both what the owner of the site wants, and what can be achieved from a moderating point of view.

The aim is not to stop people using this forum, but to encourage more welcoming air to the forum where people are free to voice their opinions in an adult manner without the worry of attack from others (disagreement is good, just without all the abuse and insults)

As has been mentioned above, a clear outline of impermissible behavior would eliminate any ambiguity around what's OK and what's just flaming bullshit. It's a shame that it's come to that, but obviously it has.

And just to drag out a dead horse for one more whack: the linking to and/or quoting from known hatesites seriously needs to be addressed IMHO.

 

[Kotchanski]

The ToS is also posted in the Questions section, Et Cetera, Et Cetera, and a link is updated within the FAQ section.

As to why it isn't an announcement, they are only dealt with by Rob himself so something I can't answer.

 

[Bbucko]

A system of warnings posted in the thread by mods for breach of a stated code of conduct for debate might help. If members continue to breach the stated code of conduct of debate after having received a series of warnings they should be temp banned, several temp bans should lead to a perma-ban, leading to delete-on-sight.

One of the other MBs I belong to issues public warnings in the threads by the moderators, not PMs. In the five-plus years I've been a member there, I've received several, and believe me, they sting. But they also have the effect of instantly diffusing a great deal of the tension that led to their having been issued in the first place.

//Edited to add: Sorry, I thought I'd cut and pasted this to my other reply but obviously didn't.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

One of the other MBs I belong to issues public warnings in the threads by the moderators, not PMs. In the five-plus years I've been a member there, I've received several, and believe me, they sting. But they also have the effect of instantly diffusing a great deal of the tension that led to their having been issued in the first place.

//Edited to add: Sorry, I thought I'd cut and pasted this to my other reply but obviously didn't.

Public warnings serve several purposes, not only do they warn a member or members that their behaviour is over the line and as you say pour oil on the waters of over-heated interactions, they also make it clear that the ToS are being properly applied in an open and fair manner which can be seen by all and if need be challenged too. They also provide a verifiable sequence of events should a member consistently ignore warnings and incure more severe penalties, meaning that no one can pretend they are unaware of the cause of their temp ban or whatever. It also means that if members think there is a bias in moderation (heaven forfend) both members and moderators have a clear record of what has gone on and both can resort to it to verify or disprove their positions in such a dispute.

 

[slurper_la]

I hope we don't come close to losing this forum. I live for the participation here but I would love to see personal attacks toned down.

I'm a moderator on a different forum (non-political, non sexual) and we had many a request for a subforum dealing with "sensitive", NSFW materials. It's a hidden forum requiring a password and, like TALLTMPAGU suggested, outside of SEO site, and it's worked beautifully.

One simple thing we could do is purposely make this a non-moderated forum. Everyone has to click through an agreement that POLITICS is a free-for-all intended for people with thick skins who have something to say. Don't like it? Bye Bye!!! no whining, no complaining, no reporting to MODS.

 

[scotchirish]

This can be a difficult problem to fix as the way I see it, the main problem is that there is bad blood between quite a few of the primary posters. I don't want to see the politics forum put behind an iron curtain nor have the mods turn into the SS. However, I think the best thing that can be done is crack down hard on any personal attack.
Also:
*If a flame war starts up, punish all members involved, not just the instigator.
*Blatant baiting should be reprimanded, but not as a severe violation.
*Access to post in the politics forum should require an additional agreement to T&S.
*Perhaps have an option to request a mod monitor a specific thread if it is becoming too heated. That's not to say they then become obligated to monitor it.
*I don't like the idea of permabans, indefinite suspensions/probations work better. I realize that the mods have the ability and heart to revoke a permaban, but this way it's not implied that people have no chance at redemption.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

One simple thing we could do is purposely make this a non-moderated forum. Everyone has to click through an agreement that POLITICS is a free-for-all intended for people with thick skins who have something to say. Don't like it? Bye Bye!!! no whining, no complaining, no reporting to MODS.

This also worked in a few boards I used to frequent back in the day. However, it quickly became a section where the only things posted were personal attacks and flames. Not one bit of useful information or any form of decent discussion which is quite vital for a Politics debate.

To be honest, I've been on boards where moderators and administrators allowed much more volatile and vitriolic words to exchange between feuding forum dwellers. I do like talltpaguy's suggestion regarding making each thread about actual news items. Politics is so much more than your party affiliation or what ideology you live by. Also, making it so that a person has to be a regular contributor to the site before they enter into the Politics section is a good idea. At least that way people can become more comfortable with the mentalities and attitudes of newcomers before they let it all hang out on a touchy political subject. Penalizing people for using "bad words" IMO is not such a great suggestion. Considering that this is a board where discussions range from Amateur Anal Sex Bloopers, Glory Hole Maintenance, Tag Team Lesbian Cunnalingus to 1001 Uses for a Fleshlight and a Dead Cat, getting on someone's case for using the four letter F-Word seems a little weird. Above anything, we should all pay very close attention to the context of our statements. Many arguments start just because some people don't even consider how their comments can be perceived by others. Intent can be hard to convey with just an 8" dick photo and some ASCII unless someone knows you or can follow some kind of post history.

That's all I got for now. Many other great points have been brought up in this thread and it's rather fruitless to repeat what has already been said. Let's just hope that this section of the board doesn't get bombarded with so many additional stipulations that people become too afraid to post here all together.

 

[B_Nick4444]

no changes

 

[B_talltpaguy]

I do like talltpaguy's suggestion regarding making each thread about actual news items. Politics is so much more than your party affiliation or what ideology you live by. Also, making it so that a person has to be a regular contributor to the site before they enter into the Politics section is a good idea. At least that way people can become more comfortable with the mentalities and attitudes of newcomers before they let it all hang out on a touchy political subject. Penalizing people for using "bad words" IMO is not such a great suggestion.

Just so folks understand... The options I posted are things that are actually done to real forums I either run or help run... But not all of those things happen to the same site. Some of the things I suggested are basically mutually exclusive, but I wasn't going to REALLY carry on by clarifying so many details... I'm throwing things against the wall for the staff here, what sticks is up to them.


Edited add on: A interesting feature that I forgot to mention, that I created on a site a few months ago is this;

When a user creates a thread, the template for the thread creation page that the user is directed to has been modified so that the top portion of the displayed thread creation page is a short list of posting rules and an explanation of them... Whoever here does some of the template coding among the Admins should be able to whip up something like this based on the existing ToS in an hour or two, tops...

here's a screencap of an early draft of what was done... (the final output looked different than this, but this should be sufficient for the Admins here to get the point. Sorry, I don't want you guys figuring out what sites I run...lol)
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7272/screencapz.jpg

This thread creation page can of course show any rules or instructions the Admins here think would work best for this community. What I have posted is merely a proof of concept, not a suggestion for what rules should be used here.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Oh and something that I would basically demand if I was a mod here... When a flame war occurs, all participants in said flame war who break the rules in doing so, must be disciplined... At no point should rule breaking respondents get off scot free, just because they're responding to someone who 'broke the rules first'... With that said, the penalty should be a certain level for the respondents, and 2-3X more severe for the instigator... Imagining a group of 4 members get into it in a bad way, none of whom who ever been warned before... Participants might all get a warning (with the next offense being a temp ban), while the instigator gets a one day temp ban, plus the warning too (meaning his next offense also gets him a temp ban of greater severity (7 days seems to be the norm here).

 

[B_Nick8]

no changes

I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I think I agree with you, Nick. For once.

I've never reported anyone for a political post. In fact, aside from underage people, I've only ever reported one person, elsewhere, that I remember. I don't believe in it, conceptually, when the ignore button works just as well and is far more self-actualizing. I think for the most part we're adults here and we ought to act the part. Certainly that's true in the Political Forum where, by the very nature of the debate, the rules need to be a bit more relaxed given the innate intensity of the debates and the inherent difficulty in both determining and confining the discussion to the cerebral and not the personal.

I have no doubt that this makes life more difficult for the mods and I don't envy them their jobs. It annoys me no end that there are people who must hit the Report button reflexively every time they read a post that disagrees with the readers' [delicate] sensibilities. In some cases I know who they are. Oftentimes, there are trolls who simply inflame for inflammations sake (no, star, I'm not talking about you; you're on my friends list :wink but those people are deservedly gone soon enough--again, with nods to the mods.

I'm the first to say we all need to take a breath and ratchet it back once in a while and try to speak to the concept and not to the person. By virtue of the subject matter, that's not always possible. However, in one forum in all of this site, one in which not all people need participate if it's not to their liking and one which is kindly watched over by long-suffering mods, I think a little more latitude to be adults--and, occasionally, children--is acceptable.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Maybe eliminating the Politics Forum all together? I never could quite figure out what it was doing here anyway.

 

[B_Nick8]

Maybe eliminating the Politics Forum all together? I never could quite figure out what it was doing here anyway.

That's pretty much how I feel about Fictitious Stories; I can't imagine how anyone can stand it, it's so bad. I just don't go there. But it wouldn't occur to me to ask anyone to eliminate it.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Certainly that's true in the Political Forum where, by the very nature of the debate, the rules need to be a bit more relaxed given the innate intensity of the debates and the inherent difficulty in both determining and confining the discussion to the cerebral and not the personal.

In my experience, the opposite is true... Rules need to be more effective at motivating bad players to become good players, or leave the politiforum... and whatever rules are put in place need to be more closely followed, rather than become mere 'suggestions'.

It is important for site staff to understand that online communities in general are extremely malleable. Whatever atmosphere is encouraged, is exactly the kind of atmosphere that will exist over time. (I think because of the transient nature of the internet, and the ease with which self identification occurs. There are sooo many people who come through, and the ones who stay are the ones attracted to the atmosphere in place)... This is important to keep in mind whenever changes such as those being discussed here are made to an online community. Whatever is done, some members will inevitably leave (or stop posting in the politiforum). It is unavoidable. The goal should be to establish an atmosphere which is more stable and more inclusive, and will thus grow over time to be more robust. (and thus more cost effective to operate)

 

[Pitbull]

Maybe eliminating the Politics Forum all together? I never could quite figure out what it was doing here anyway.

It was started to get all the political garbage out of the et cetera section.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

^Same reason such forums have been started at other sites... It's a darn good reason! :beerchug:

 

[798686]

Split UK/EU politics into a sub-forum. These threads are usually polite and calmly debated - no need for intervention.

Also, don't remove the politics forum...it's one of the major reasons I come here.

Maybe ban repeat offenders from the politics section for a month or two? Followed by a permanent politics ban if they persist?