The Politics of Race: the case of Trayvon Martin

Q Vee

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Posts
1,006
Media
2
Likes
61
Points
183
Location
New England, USA
Gender
Male
I imagine that if we saw the event on video, Zimmerman would have been arrested.
However, I'm just guessing ... I don't know.
It's possible that Zimmerman did have good cause to believe he had to defend himself. It may seem out of character for Trayon Martin to have turned aggressive, but we don't know what he did without testimony from witnesses or other proof.
Nor can we reach certainty about what happened from what we've learned about Zimmerman's previous behavior nor what he said to the operator on his 911 call.
If I were a police officer or a DA, I'm not sure I would have done differently than Florida authorities have done.
I don't mean to sound cold. But absence of proof is absence of proof.

Yes you do sound cold and naive or misinformed or at least biased.

SOME COLD HARD FACTS OF THE CASE:

If a police officer discharges his weapon it has become routine that they are suspended from street assignment and their weapon is surrendered and an investigation is begun, even under the most obvious of cases.

Zimmerman was released with his firearm to return home.

He was:
  1. not a registered Neighborhood Watch volunteer; (INTENT)
  2. Neighborhood Watch prohibits carrying firearms and approaching potential dangerous suspects and instructs deferring to Police assistance; (INTENT)
  3. the Police dispatch instructed him not to pursue; (INTENT)
  4. he left his vehicle to pursue and confront Trayvon (not Trayon); (OPPORTUNITY)
  5. Zimmerman's actions do not meet criteria for the Stand and Defend Law; (INTENT)
  6. he was known to the Police for:
    • a) numerous 911 calls regarding suspicious black males; (MOTIVE) (HATE)
    • b) at least one altercation with the law; (MOTIVE)
  7. Zimmerman is a 32 y.o 200lb grown man, who was carrying a 9mm gun and Trayvon was a 17y.o. 100 youth, carrying Skittles, a can of iced tea and a cell phone; (MEANS)
  8. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin in some sort of scuffle; (INCIDENT)
  9. the Law is to be applied by the courts not the police, thus based on 1-8 they had more than enough to at the least detain and interrogate, if not charge and arrest.
Those are facts that were available at the time -- proof of probable cause. If common sense does not dictate to anyone that Zimmerman needed to be held in custody, if not arrested, than I question that individuals objectivity.

To further add to the suspicious nature of the Sanford PD:
  1. They held Trayvon's body in their morgue for three days without notifying the family.
  2. They ignored the calls on his cell phone from his father who repeatedly called searching for his son (including area hospitals).
  3. They did not bother to call the last number called on his cell phone in an attempt to investigate his identity.
  4. They performed drug and alcohol tests on Trayvon's remains but not on Zimmerman.
  5. They appear to not have conducted a professional/proper crime scene investigation to collect valuable forensic evidence.
Even without race, the entire handling of this situation is already a travesty of justice. Add the racial profiling and racial insensitivity and you have a Hate Crime covered up by like minded law enforcement.

And worst of all, if you like, there are about 22 states with similar laws on their books. If I was cynical and/or jaded, I would say the next step would be to have outright hunting licenses to kill Black men. And I would not be surprised to know that there would be numerous folks (some on here no doubt) who would register.

The one fact that has yet to be brought out is a case(s) where a Black man has killed a white man in the South and been sent home with his gun the same day, and/or charged and found innocent.

And if someone does take on the challenge of this research project. Please include the statistics of White-on-Black to Black-on-White. And let's keep in mind, Blacks make up approximately 12% of the National population.

Finally, this happened February 26 and is only now becoming known. The second a pretty White American female goes missing its national news - even if they're in Aruba. A young black man is missing and the local PD can not even figure out they have his body in the morgue.

Despicable.
 
Last edited:

D_Dick_S_Lapp

Account Disabled
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Posts
934
Media
0
Likes
2
Points
51
Do we really need more evidence here? I mean when someone screams for help thats a pretty clear indication that they may need it. A shot afterwards means someone ignored said scream. Sure, i don't know exactly what happened because i wasn't there but come on. I bet the guy didn't even identify himself.
 

VitaminK

Just Browsing
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Posts
11
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
USA
>>Yes you do sound cold and naive or misinformed or at least biased.

Yer kinda new to the LPSG Politics sub-forum it seems. 75%+ of the subject/titles alone...fit your description.

 

Fuzzy_

Legendary Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Posts
4,253
Media
0
Likes
1,105
Points
258
Location
Wuziland
Gender
Male
I imagine that if we saw the event on video, Zimmerman would have been arrested.
However, I'm just guessing ... I don't know.
It's possible that Zimmerman did have good cause to believe he had to defend himself. It may seem out of character for Trayon Martin to have turned aggressive, but we don't know what he did without testimony from witnesses or other proof.
Nor can we reach certainty about what happened from what we've learned about Zimmerman's previous behavior nor what he said to the operator on his 911 call.
If I were a police officer or a DA, I'm not sure I would have done differently than Florida authorities have done.
I don't mean to sound cold. But absence of proof is absence of proof.

Yes you do sound cold and naive or misinformed or at least biased.

You have the advantage of using days-old facts revealed about this case. Conan did not. He was offering another perspective of the story to prevent bias based on the facts known publicly at the time.


SOME COLD HARD FACTS OF THE CASE:

Hmmm. Now you sounding kinda "cold". :wink:



If a police officer discharges his weapon it has become routine that they are suspended from street assignment and their weapon is surrendered and an investigation is begun, even under the most obvious of cases.

Zimmerman admitted to discharging his weapon and claimed that it was self-defense.

Zimmerman was released with his firearm to return home.

He was:
  1. not a registered Neighborhood Watch volunteer; (INTENT)
  2. Neighborhood Watch prohibits carrying firearms and approaching potential dangerous suspects and instructs deferring to Police assistance; (INTENT)
  3. the Police dispatch instructed him not to pursue; (INTENT)
  4. he left his vehicle to pursue and confront Trayvon (not Trayon); (OPPORTUNITY)
  5. Zimmerman's actions do not meet criteria for the Stand and Defend Law; (INTENT)
  6. he was known to the Police for:
    • a) numerous 911 calls regarding suspicious black males; (MOTIVE) (HATE)
    • b) at least one altercation with the law; (MOTIVE)
  7. Zimmerman is a 32 y.o 200lb grown man, who was carrying a 9mm gun and Trayvon was a 17y.o. 100 youth, carrying Skittles, a can of iced tea and a cell phone; (MEANS)
  8. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin in some sort of scuffle; (INCIDENT)
  9. the Law is to be applied by the courts not the police, thus based on 1-8 they had more than enough to at the least detain and interrogate, if not charge and arrest.
Those are facts that were available at the time -- proof of probable cause. If common sense does not dictate to anyone that Zimmerman needed to be held in custody, if not arrested, than I question that individuals objectivity.

To further add to the suspicious nature of the Sanford PD:
  1. They held Trayvon's body in their morgue for three days without notifying the family.
  2. They ignored the calls on his cell phone from his father who repeatedly called searching for his son (including area hospitals).
  3. They did not bother to call the last number called on his cell phone in an attempt to investigate his identity.
  4. They performed drug and alcohol tests on Trayvon's remains but not on Zimmerman.
  5. They appear to not have conducted a professional/proper crime scene investigation to collect valuable forensic evidence.
Even without race, the entire handling of this situation is already a travesty of justice. Add the racial profiling and racial insensitivity and you have a Hate Crime covered up by like minded law enforcement.

And worst of all, if you like, there are about 22 states with similar laws on their books. If I was cynical and/or jaded, I would say the next step would be to have outright hunting licenses to kill Black men. And I would not be surprised to know that there would be numerous folks (some on here no doubt) who would register.

The one fact that has yet to be brought out is a case(s) where a Black man has killed a white man in the South and been sent home with his gun the same day, and/or charged and found innocent.

And if someone does take on the challenge of this research project. Please include the statistics of White-on-Black to Black-on-White. And let's keep in mind, Blacks make up approximately 12% of the National population.

Finally, this happened February 26 and is only now becoming known. The second a pretty White American female goes missing its national news - even if they're in Aruba. A young black man is missing and the local PD can not even figure out they have his body in the morgue.

Despicable.

Fuzzy agrees that this could be a hate crime; the "he's latino, so he can't be racist" argument by his family is laughable. Police claim that there is no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claims of self-defense, so he should stick with that defense if he knows what's best for him. The grand jury will certainly lead to an indictment from public pressure alone.
 
Last edited:

itsthepopei

Legendary Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Posts
486
Media
9
Likes
1,201
Points
273
Location
Atlanta
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
the law as it pertains to the use of deadly force in Florida

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

according to Florida law, unless Zimmerman was actually under threat of death the events are at the least manslaughter

generally speaking people don't scream for help if they are attacking someone or in the process of robbing someones home (a difficult thing to do in the street) this rulles out an attempt to stop the commissioning of a crime.

the fact that the kid was unarmed makes this at least manslaughter even if there was an altercation

the screams for help would suggest if there was an altercation Zimmerman was in control and thus makes the use of deadly force unlawful.
 
Last edited:

Q Vee

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Posts
1,006
Media
2
Likes
61
Points
183
Location
New England, USA
Gender
Male
You have the advantage of using days-old facts revealed about this case. Conan did not. He was offering another perspective of the story to prevent bias based on the facts known publicly at the time.

There are only 9 hours between our posts and I went to the internet to learn more and where this information was readily available. Additionally, I did not include any of the newly released information regarding witnesses as it may not have been known to Conan at that time.

Hmmm. Now you sounding kinda "cold". :wink:

YUP! It is masking and holding back the anger.

Zimmerman admitted to discharging his weapon and claimed that it was self-defense.

I repeat... "If a police officer discharges his weapon it has become routine that they are suspended from street assignment and their weapon is surrendered and an investigation is begun, even under the most obvious of cases."

Fuzzy agrees that this could be a hate crime; the "he's latino, so he can't be racist" argument by his family is laughable. Police claim that there is no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claims of self-defense, so he should stick with that defense if he knows what's best for him. The grand jury will certainly lead to an indictment from public pressure alone.

It is disturbing when public opinion drives the Justice System, though it happens often for good and bad. The facts and arguments ought to result in honest findings. Just because he claims self-defense does not make it true and I believe that a good argument of the facts would reveal the true nature of Zimmerman's actions.

Q finds Zimmerman's and the Sanford PD's actions indefensible and fails to understand those who defend their actions, except a defense attorney. By Law he is innocent until proven guilty. I have not heard anything from his side that provides reasonable doubt as to where he intended this to end.

Nor have I heard anything from his camp -- father, friend, attorney, etc. --- that acknowledge the remorse for the loss of Trayvon's life to his family and friends. I suppose that is them "just keepin' it real".

If only he could have registered for an Open Season on Killing Black Men License, he'd be free and clear. Oh, that's right, he is free and clear at this time! My bad...
 

dreamer20

Worshipped Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Posts
7,963
Media
3
Likes
19,708
Points
643
Gender
Male

SOME COLD HARD FACTS OF THE CASE:

If a police officer discharges his weapon it has become routine that they are suspended from street assignment and their weapon is surrendered and an investigation is begun, even under the most obvious of cases.

Zimmerman was released with his firearm to return home...
  1. he left his vehicle to pursue and confront Trayvon (not Trayon); (OPPORTUNITY)
  2. Zimmerman's actions do not meet criteria for the Stand and Defend Law; (INTENT)
  3. he was known to the Police for:
    • a) numerous 911 calls regarding suspicious black males; (MOTIVE) (HATE)
    • ...



Zimmerman admitted to discharging his weapon and claimed that it was self-defense.

Fuzzy agrees that this could be a hate crime; the "he's latino, so he can't be racist" argument by his family is laughable. Police claim that there is no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claims of self-defense, so he should stick with that defense if he knows what's best for him. The grand jury will certainly lead to an indictment from public pressure alone.

Yet Zimmerman's self-defense claim was a ridiculous one to make in light of the fact he deliberately tracked down and killed this youth. I'm astonished that the police took the killer's claims seriously and didn't bother to investigate etc. Re: Q Vee's post.
 

Q Vee

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Posts
1,006
Media
2
Likes
61
Points
183
Location
New England, USA
Gender
Male
From a site that seems to be a proponent of the "Stand Your Ground" law.

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/florida-self-defense-law.htm


"... The Florida law is not a gun law. Period. It contains zero references to guns or shooting, unless you feel propagandistically compelled to count one of those ubiquitous legislative “Whereases” that references the Florida Constitution’s “right of the people to bear arms…”

The Florida law is a self-defense, self-protection law. It has four key components:

  • It establishes that law-abiding residents and visitors may legally presume the threat of bodily harm or death from anyone who breaks into a residence or occupied vehicle and may use defensive force, including deadly force, against the intruder.
  • In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”
  • In either case, a person using any force permitted by the law is immune from criminal prosecution or civil action and cannot be arrested unless a law enforcement agency determines there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful.
  • If a civil action is brought and the court finds the defendant to be immune based on the parameters of the law, the defendant will be awarded all costs of defense.
  • Florida’s law, like countless others from legislative sausage grinders, could have been better drafted. It unquestionably will be challenged in court, over and over again, by those who abhor even the concept of applied individual self-defense or by legal gadflies with nothing better to do with their time.
It is a tough law — on those with criminal intent. As is often the case, its ultimate goal is as much to deter as to be used. Whether it ever results in much change remains to be seen. But by removing ambiguities regarding legal responses to imminent threats to life and property and removing an obligation to retreat, the law attempts to rebalance justice on behalf of innocent, law-abiding Floridians, as well as the state’s numerous law-abiding visitors, specifically included. Whether those visitors are comforted or frightened by the law should be based on accurately understanding it, not blatant attempts by a faltering advocacy group to harm Florida tourism."

 

b.c.

Worshipped Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Posts
20,540
Media
0
Likes
21,779
Points
468
Location
at home
Verification
View
Gender
Male
Yet Zimmerman's self-defense claim was a ridiculous one to make in light of the fact he deliberately tracked down and killed this youth. I'm astonished that the police took the killer's claims seriously and didn't bother to investigate etc. Re: Q Vee's post.

Not only that, but most have now heard the additional recorded comments of Zimmerman, reported on NBC's Nightly News and aired uncensored in other venues, comments which one would think leave no doubt about Zimmerman's "racial perspective."

http://www.mediaite.com/online/did-...ns-in-911-call-before-killing-trayvon-martin/
 
Last edited:

ConanTheBarber

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Posts
5,305
Media
0
Likes
2,087
Points
258
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
You have the advantage of using days-old facts revealed about this case. Conan did not. He was offering another perspective of the story to prevent bias based on the facts known publicly at the time.


Astonishing. This is exactly what I was doing.

Fuzzy agrees that this could be a hate crime

So does Conan, as the first line of his earlier post indicates.

Police claim that there is no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claims of self-defense, so he should stick with that defense if he knows what's best for him. The grand jury will certainly lead to an indictment from public pressure alone.
All probably true.
My point, in feeling that Zimmerman may not be convicted (and for that matter, may be innocent, though my instinct doesn't assume such), is that a piece of legislation that allows one to offer force against force, without any presumption of one's submission to any perceived need to avoid aggression, may lead to cases where one could say everything escalated, and unless we have definite corroborative proof (oops, evidence) of a person's guilt ... one is left more or less having to accept an account in which someone says they believed they were defending their life.
And Zimmerman has the luxury of being in that position.
That's why I'm not sure that he isn't standing on quite firm ground in expecting his claim ... which we can neither prove nor disprove ... be taken at face value.
The law is too permissive in this situation.

However, sometimes I find myself an outlier in a thread, and know that, going forward, I am better off to read rather than post.
 

Fuzzy_

Legendary Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Posts
4,253
Media
0
Likes
1,105
Points
258
Location
Wuziland
Gender
Male
It is disturbing when public opinion drives the Justice System, though it happens often for good and bad. The facts and arguments ought to result in honest findings. Just because he claims self-defense does not make it true and I believe that a good argument of the facts would reveal the true nature of Zimmerman's actions.

You have to remember that laws are just codified values of a society. Discretion is a vital and necessary part of the CJS. In the case of indictments, the grand jury will use their discretion when deciding to issue an indictment. The prosecution will look at precedents and other factors to figure out their chances for a conviction, and the cost of the trial. Even if the chances of a conviction are not good, public pressure might still lead to an indictment... and probably will in this instance.

In this case, it looks as if the discretion of the first responder(s) was abused.

Many single mothers have [literally] gotten away with murder because of public pressure. Is that such a bad thing?
 

Q Vee

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Posts
1,006
Media
2
Likes
61
Points
183
Location
New England, USA
Gender
Male
Whether you are viewing this case through the lens of the Stand Your Ground law or Self-Defense only, I am not discounting that point of view. However, I maintain that: 1) it is not the Sanford PD decision to invoke that law, that is the D.A. or the Courts responsibility; 2) obviously, and ultimately, Zimmerman's actions are not in line with the either Law as written.

Regardless if he is innocent or guilty, he should have been arrested. There was enough probable cause at the time of the incident for an arrest.

Regarding your commentary: Nine hours does equal "days old" in any reality in this dimension and that excuse does not hold as a basis for the differences in the tone of our posts. If you do not want to take the time, as I did, to do some easy search for background info, than by all means remain a reader and do not attempt to add commentary that will become subject to scrutiny or accept the critiques that have been a hallmark of this forum.

We are a republic of the people, for the people and by the people, so if Public Safety and Justice Systems need the public to push them to do the right thing then so be it.

Fuzzy, the last remark was reprehensible and unnecessary.
 

kayman

Legendary Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Posts
1,344
Media
26
Likes
1,184
Points
358
Verification
View
Sexuality
60% Gay, 40% Straight
Gender
Male
You do not own the thread and I was placing information which I find to be of great value to this thread and will continue to do so when I have information which relates to the topic at hand. As the topic is racism, placing a link to a similarly themed thread and making reference to an incident regarding racism which you yourself brought into the thread, is well within the correct parameters.

It is a non sequitur because that thread is not about racism, it is about xenophobia. There is a difference between the two, thus the connection is vague and will likely derail the conversation about how institutionalized racism has negative affects on the lives of most black Americans.

Nevermind, you are now on ignore b/c I don't have time for this type of back and forth...
 
Last edited:

Hoss

Loved Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Posts
11,801
Media
2
Likes
586
Points
148
Age
73
Location
Eastern town
Sexuality
60% Gay, 40% Straight
Gender
Male
It is a non sequitur because that thread is not about racism, it is about xenophobia. There is a difference between the two, thus the connection is vague and will likely derail the conversation about how institutionalized racism has negative affects on the lives of most black Americans.

Nevermind, you are now on ignore b/c I don't have time for this type of back and forth...

Since I am now on ignore, he won't see this but I find it odd choice to say the thread is not about racism if the title is the politics of RACE. Further I was not just speaking of institutionalized racism....

Further Xenophobia is about fear and/or hatred of foreigners or strangers, it is not necessarily about race. It can be a French person who fears or hates a Polish person.

So yes there is indeed a difference between racism and xenophobia and if what Mr.Zimmerman was displaying was xenophobia then that should have been the title word, not race. And if it's not about institutionalized racism then why the choice of the word 'Politics'?



Since kayman has me on ignore he won't be able to respond but maybe somebody else can.
 

Fuzzy_

Legendary Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Posts
4,253
Media
0
Likes
1,105
Points
258
Location
Wuziland
Gender
Male
the admins are going to take the YouTube link down

Why? Is an adult dick site more family-oriented than Youtube?

Fuzzy hopes they keep it up. It's explains much about personal motive and societal values in that time and place.

This seems like a clear-cut hate crime.

Edit: Momma Meg just made a thread about it here, so Fuzzy is fine with the last few posts being removed in this thread. Fuzzy was just wondering what others heard.
 
Last edited:

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,674
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Since I am now on ignore, he won't see this but I find it odd choice to say the thread is not about racism if the title is the politics of RACE. Further I was not just speaking of institutionalized racism....

Further Xenophobia is about fear and/or hatred of foreigners or strangers, it is not necessarily about race. It can be a French person who fears or hates a Polish person.

So yes there is indeed a difference between racism and xenophobia and if what Mr.Zimmerman was displaying was xenophobia then that should have been the title word, not race. And if it's not about institutionalized racism then why the choice of the word 'Politics'?



Since kayman has me on ignore he won't be able to respond but maybe somebody else can.
Ok maybe I can help with the confusion.

The "other thread" which Kayman says is a non sequitur is the one you brought up here, it's titled "Where's your green card?". That's the one he says about xenophobia not racism. This thread, the one we are in, is the one titled The Politics of Race.