The poorest 47% of Americans have no wealth

Smaccoms

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h0neymustard

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Mensch1351

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My dear Honeymustard..........leave it to you to post a thorough study of the Heritage Foundation -- on poverty no less! Let's see. The poor aren't poor if they own a refrigerator. The poor aren't poor if they live in housing less than sub-standard. The poor aren't poor if they make poor choices in terms of what they might consider "quality of life" amenities. Did the Heritage Foundation publish a report on average "household DEBT" related to these poor families. I think you'd do much better reading a good book on the cyclical downward spiral of poverty in America.

And by the way ----- MANY of the poor in America aren't lazy ass individuals just sucking the government tit. They work.....they work 2 and 3 jobs JUST to be able to afford to buy their cars, insure their cars, put gas in their cars and repair their cars -- alone. Do the math at $15 an hour minus taxes -- and then of course ADD the sales tax they pay on items they purchase! Do the math! Do the math on just what a monthly budget of a family looks like when you bring home a take home pay of $24,960 (after taxes of 20% -- and that does NOT include cost of health insurance) $2,080 per month! Housing, clothes, food (and it's rising costs), gas, insurances, repairs, utilities (ah yes, I guess they could all turn their heat down to 60 during the winter!!) etc. Add it up and then ask yourself, "Just HOW are these people affording amenities as listed by the Heritage Foundation?" Debt -- lots and lots and lots of debt! "Hey -- you can't afford that x-box. SAVE your money, invest your money so you've got something to fall back on in case of catastrophic illness -- or so when you're old you can actually AFFORD $7,000 a month for a nursing home!" Yeah --- sure!

And then the Republicans OPPOSE raising of the minimum wage to $9 an hour. $9.00 an hour!!!! This from the "family values" people! And Paul Ryan wants Congress to pass a law exempting employers from paying overtime for 40+ hours.

The Economic Terrorists of our day are determined to keep the lower classes as low as they possibly can without encouraging a knee-jerk reaction that might lead to revolution. And then the conservative think-tank Heritage Foundation has the gall to publish a report essentially saying that even our poor have it "better" than the average middle class person -- 20 years ago!!

Well.......let's see a debt comparison from the average middle class person 20 years ago to the current debt of the "average" poor now.

Or let's put it this way............if the average middle class person making $60K a year is having trouble "making it" to the American Dream ---- how do those making $25K a year manage????? To quote Uncle Mitt: "They think they're entitled to housing....to food....(check out his 47% speech of "horse-pucky!")
 

ConanTheBarber

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I think HM's point was that poverty has relative and absolute components ... and in the United States today (and throughout the developed world), poor people have a standard of living, in an absolute sense, that would be the envy of poor people elsewhere and even of many American rich people of half a century ago.
And that's perhaps true ... but leaves out the relative aspects of poverty.
 

Smaccoms

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My dear Honeymustard..........leave it to you to post a thorough study of the Heritage Foundation -- on poverty no less! Let's see. The poor aren't poor if they own a refrigerator. The poor aren't poor if they live in housing less than sub-standard. The poor aren't poor if they make poor choices in terms of what they might consider "quality of life" amenities. Did the Heritage Foundation publish a report on average "household DEBT" related to these poor families. I think you'd do much better reading a good book on the cyclical downward spiral of poverty in America.

And by the way ----- MANY of the poor in America aren't lazy ass individuals just sucking the government tit. They work.....they work 2 and 3 jobs JUST to be able to afford to buy their cars, insure their cars, put gas in their cars and repair their cars -- alone. Do the math at $15 an hour minus taxes -- and then of course ADD the sales tax they pay on items they purchase! Do the math! Do the math on just what a monthly budget of a family looks like when you bring home a take home pay of $24,960 (after taxes of 20% -- and that does NOT include cost of health insurance) $2,080 per month! Housing, clothes, food (and it's rising costs), gas, insurances, repairs, utilities (ah yes, I guess they could all turn their heat down to 60 during the winter!!) etc. Add it up and then ask yourself, "Just HOW are these people affording amenities as listed by the Heritage Foundation?" Debt -- lots and lots and lots of debt! "Hey -- you can't afford that x-box. SAVE your money, invest your money so you've got something to fall back on in case of catastrophic illness -- or so when you're old you can actually AFFORD $7,000 a month for a nursing home!" Yeah --- sure!

And then the Republicans OPPOSE raising of the minimum wage to $9 an hour. $9.00 an hour!!!! This from the "family values" people! And Paul Ryan wants Congress to pass a law exempting employers from paying overtime for 40+ hours.

The Economic Terrorists of our day are determined to keep the lower classes as low as they possibly can without encouraging a knee-jerk reaction that might lead to revolution. And then the conservative think-tank Heritage Foundation has the gall to publish a report essentially saying that even our poor have it "better" than the average middle class person -- 20 years ago!!

Well.......let's see a debt comparison from the average middle class person 20 years ago to the current debt of the "average" poor now.

Or let's put it this way............if the average middle class person making $60K a year is having trouble "making it" to the American Dream ---- how do those making $25K a year manage????? To quote Uncle Mitt: "They think they're entitled to housing....to food....(check out his 47% speech of "horse-pucky!")

Woot woot! Thank you for the detailed response, I quite enjoyed reading it!

I think HM's point was that poverty has relative and absolute components ... and in the United States today (and throughout the developed world), poor people have a standard of living, in an absolute sense, that would be the envy of poor people elsewhere and even of many American rich people of half a century ago.
And that's perhaps true ... but leaves out the relative aspects of poverty.

Did you read through the article I posted? It's quite short actually, but powerful. It breaks the illusion that the poor in America aren't "legitimately poor" pretty darn quickly. I believe the point of the matter is that whether you are "absolutely" or "relatively" poor, you are still be exploited by the ruling class. The motto of Capitalism is "Profits over People!"
 

stratedude

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I wish some of the companies in my town could start profiting so that they might be able to decide to grow and start HIRING. As it stands they are are struggling to survive themselves. Meanwhile people that qualify for EBT, etc are eating TGI Friday's regularly (my brother is a manager there) and have enough food stamps left over after grocery shopping to sell the extra on Craig's List for extra spending cash. Our country is totally fucked if this doesn't get fixed extremely soon. If not our country will be down to 3 classes of people: 1. The Welfare recipients, 2. Waiters to serve them, 3. Politicians laughing all the way to the bank.
 

ConanTheBarber

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Did you read through the article I posted?
No.

It's quite short actually, but powerful. It breaks the illusion that the poor in America aren't "legitimately poor" pretty darn quickly.
Good. That's a bad illusion.

I believe the point of the matter is that whether you are "absolutely" or "relatively" poor, you are still be exploited by the ruling class.
Another point you might think about is that if you are "absolutely" poor, you are far, far worse off that someone who is merely "relatively" poor.

The motto of Capitalism is "Profits over People!"
What I most cherish in you is your originality, Smaccoms.
Who'd a thunk that "the motto of Capitalism is 'Profits over People.'"?
U musta gonn reel fur in hiskool.
 

h0neymustard

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My dear Honeymustard..........leave it to you to post a thorough study of the Heritage Foundation -- on poverty no less! Let's see. The poor aren't poor if they own a refrigerator. The poor aren't poor if they live in housing less than sub-standard. The poor aren't poor if they make poor choices in terms of what they might consider "quality of life" amenities. Did the Heritage Foundation publish a report on average "household DEBT" related to these poor families. I think you'd do much better reading a good book on the cyclical downward spiral of poverty in America.

And by the way ----- MANY of the poor in America aren't lazy ass individuals just sucking the government tit. They work.....they work 2 and 3 jobs JUST to be able to afford to buy their cars, insure their cars, put gas in their cars and repair their cars -- alone. Do the math at $15 an hour minus taxes -- and then of course ADD the sales tax they pay on items they purchase! Do the math! Do the math on just what a monthly budget of a family looks like when you bring home a take home pay of $24,960 (after taxes of 20% -- and that does NOT include cost of health insurance) $2,080 per month! Housing, clothes, food (and it's rising costs), gas, insurances, repairs, utilities (ah yes, I guess they could all turn their heat down to 60 during the winter!!) etc. Add it up and then ask yourself, "Just HOW are these people affording amenities as listed by the Heritage Foundation?" Debt -- lots and lots and lots of debt! "Hey -- you can't afford that x-box. SAVE your money, invest your money so you've got something to fall back on in case of catastrophic illness -- or so when you're old you can actually AFFORD $7,000 a month for a nursing home!" Yeah --- sure!

And then the Republicans OPPOSE raising of the minimum wage to $9 an hour. $9.00 an hour!!!! This from the "family values" people! And Paul Ryan wants Congress to pass a law exempting employers from paying overtime for 40+ hours.

The Economic Terrorists of our day are determined to keep the lower classes as low as they possibly can without encouraging a knee-jerk reaction that might lead to revolution. And then the conservative think-tank Heritage Foundation has the gall to publish a report essentially saying that even our poor have it "better" than the average middle class person -- 20 years ago!!

Well.......let's see a debt comparison from the average middle class person 20 years ago to the current debt of the "average" poor now.

Or let's put it this way............if the average middle class person making $60K a year is having trouble "making it" to the American Dream ---- how do those making $25K a year manage????? To quote Uncle Mitt: "They think they're entitled to housing....to food....(check out his 47% speech of "horse-pucky!")

When Work Is Punished: The Tragedy Of America's Welfare State | Zero Hedge

You suggesting an increase in minimum wage just negates your whole argument. Raising minimum wage hurts people.
 

Drifterwood

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Genuine questions for the good guys.

What does $15,000 of wealth achieve anyway? I mean, med bills can be higher than that.

Secondly, is there no gradation between the bottom 5% to the 40 to 45%? Why choose 47% as a cut off? Are the 48th percentile suddenly ok? Meaning that most Americans are wealthy.

So, why are Americans becoming less wealthy? Might it be simply that they want to spend more, consume more? And the nasty capitalists will give them the loans to achieve what they want?
 

Smaccoms

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Genuine questions for the good guys.

What does $15,000 of wealth achieve anyway? I mean, med bills can be higher than that.

Not much really, that's the entire point. I mean, daycare and college both cost about the same, and all other costs do nothing but increase. When you need two people working over time to just pay the basic bills, how in the world do you expect them to raise a family? Is there any particular reason women in particular are expected to raise the next generation of workers without any outside help whatsoever?

Secondly, is there no gradation between the bottom 5% to the 40 to 45%? Why choose 47% as a cut off? Are the 48th percentile suddenly ok? Meaning that most Americans are wealthy.

This particular gradation was chosen because the conclusions that connect to it and how powerful they are. You could choose the 48th percentile or the 45th, and the conclusions wouldn't really change. Also, if you observe lower percentiles, then their situations obviously worsen.
Most Americans are NOT wealthy; that is the point of this article.


So, why are Americans becoming less wealthy? Might it be simply that they want to spend more, consume more? And the nasty capitalists will give them the loans to achieve what they want?

A quick & entertaining video describing the reality of wealth distribution in America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewu-woThlv8

Americans weren't truly "wealthy" to begin with. Capitalism functions by exploiting the masses. Before money was widely used, you could only exploit a human's labor so much (even if they were enslaved). 100 lbs of wool was worth 100 pounds of wool no matter where you went to barter it. The wealth produced would get you same amount of wealth, and you had to pay (in goods) the same amount no matter how you had those goods produced.

With money, like in a Capitalist system, all of that goes out the window. If 100 lbs of wool is worth $100, and workers are paid with money rather than goods, there are all sorts of levels of exploitation you can create. The basic premise you can completely separate the amount it costs to produce the wealth, and the amount you pay the worker for producing it in the first place. In capitalism, the goal is to increase this gap as much as possible for more profits. That is called exploitation. While productivity goes up, pay goes down. Workers are constantly paid less for producing more.

So if you ask me where that miniscule amount of wealth that the working class DOES own is going, I would to say the ruling class. It is going to them by the lowering of the minimum wage, unequal tax implementation, foreclosures by the banks, by government bailouts to "too big to fail" companies. A large part of Americas wealth is tied up in the stock market, which the working class has virtually no access to.

So NO, the working class is not poor because they consume too much. The vast majority of wealth never even passes through the hands of the working class to begin with.
 
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185248

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How do you fix it? Well, you could start by buying locally made goods and supporting local produsers. Oh, hang on, you guys are probably just like the rest of the developed world.

Local manufacturing has been moving off-shore for years to increase corporate profits. Workers are having to buy cheaper imports from overseas because there are becomining fewer long term job prospects for growth locally and for the need to have a skilled workforce. Workers are now not only competing with locals for jobs but those being paid much less in developing countries.

How does a country compete in todays market with the way things are set up. When workers locally are being paid less than the workers in developing countries. Corporates can operate world wide, shift around easily to where it suits and money can be made. Populations do not have that luxury.
 

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The funny thing about capitalism is that it's not just the poor whose debt exceed their assets. If some 'rich' folks were liquidated, they'd have the same as a 'bum' on the streets.
 

Fuzzy_

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And whose fault would that be? Did I force them to buy a $400,000 house on an income of $40,000? Did I force them to buy a $60,000 truck when they didn't need one?

It's all your fault. You ruined everything.

Fuzzy was just saying that many people who worship capitalism also look at the poor as if they were scum... but who is really poor?
 
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185248

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The more poor there are the more wealthy a country will become. Good thinking 99. :)