The practice of aborting female fetuses

B_crackoff

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Aborting female fetuses does reduce population growth.

It would also lead to a lot of grumpy old men, that would have probably have done something more constructive with their time, like going to Mars, drinking & fighting...not looking at endless shades of purple...
 

pcghabsy

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Aborting female fetuses does reduce population growth.

It would also lead to a lot of grumpy old men, that would have probably have done something more constructive with their time, like going to Mars, drinking & fighting...not looking at endless shades of purple...

It's not about reducing population. It's about wanting to birth boys over girls. They would never abort a male fetus. It's just a cultural thing. In India, men have been the bread-earners, women have just been a liability - the parents have to offer a sizeable dowry to the man's family when she gets married. (Obviously, this kind of culture is rare in modern urban India, but there are still rural subcultures which are very ancient minded.)

In fact, in a country with more men than women, population growth would be lesser, if anything.
 
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helgaleena

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It's not about reducing population. It's about wanting to birth boys over girls. They would never abort a male fetus. It's just a cultural thing. In India, men have been the bread-earners, women have just been a liability - the parents have to offer a sizeable dowry to the man's family when she gets married. (Obviously, this kind of culture is rare in modern urban India, but there are still rural subcultures which are very ancient minded.)

In fact, in a country with more men than women, population growth would be lesser, if anything.

In truly rural India, aren't women the ones who do the work while their fathers/husbands sit on the string cot and smoke? That is what I always saw. Even your example is middle-class.
 

PerfectlySexy

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I propose this be moved to the Politics section. This is the latest trial balloon of right-wing abortion opponents in the US. I think the "abortion is black genocide" didn't really go over well. For some reason these people think they're clever to ask, "how can you support abortion when it will be used for sex selection." This is exactly the same as asking "how can you support freedom of speech when it will be used by white supremacists." Yeah, as people in the US often seem to have trouble understanding, when people have freedom it is inevitable they will use it to do something you do not like nor agree with. Such is the nature of liberty. Anyway, for a similar take:

Balloon Juice - simple answers to easy questions
 
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Intrigue

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I propose this be moved to the Politics section. This is the latest trial balloon of right-wing abortion opponents in the US. I think the "abortion is black genocide" didn't really go over well. For some reason these people think they're clever to ask, "how can you support abortion when it will be used for sex selection." This is exactly the same as asking "how can you support freedom of speech when it will be used by white supremacists." Yeah, as people in the US often seem to have trouble understanding, when people have freedom it is inevitable they will use it to do something you do not like nor agree with. Such is the nature of liberty. Anyway, for a similar take:

Balloon Juice - simple answers to easy questions


While I agree we may not get everything right, who does anyway? Why turn a perfectly good post into a slight on anyone living in the US? I presume this was not the intent. Do I presume too much?
 
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Nature is a strange thing. Worldwide about a 105 males are born to every 100 females. No-one can really say how come nature dictates this, but like most other things in nature humans have fucked with, it will turn around one day and bite a huge chunk out of some countries populations that are obsessed with gender selection, arses. I find it quirky as well that millions of males can kill themselves in world conflicts and within a generation or two gender is back near to balance again.

One of those strange phenomenon.
 
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Intrigue

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Is a higher rate of male birth some evolutionary trait developed to help curb the lose of males from violent activities? Interesting question I think.
 
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Is a higher rate of male birth some evolutionary trait developed to help curb the lose of males from violent activities? Interesting question I think.

The other question there as well is that nature seems to compensate for life that is born and dies, but does not seem to be compensating for something that is aborted before birth..as China is slowly coming to recognise.....
 
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Kaurik

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The life expectancy of women is longer than that of men probably even when you just consider death from natural causes so that in itself probably contributes to an evening out of the 105 to 100 ratio at birth.
 

Intrigue

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The other question there as well is that nature seems to compensate for life that is born and dies, but does not seem to be compensating for something that is aborted before birth..as China is slowly coming to recognise.....


Its a very weird time. What happens when the ratio falls further? Do they then treat women as more of a precious commodity? Do they then start valuing daughters more? I have no idea but they are headed toward a very unbalanced state of affairs, not saying that they aren't there in a sense already.
 

B_crackoff

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In fact, in a country with more men than women, population growth would be lesser, if anything.

Yes - that's what I said!:tongue:

The life expectancy of women is longer than that of men probably even when you just consider death from natural causes so that in itself probably contributes to an evening out of the 105 to 100 ratio at birth.

Part of this is due to far higher male infant mortality - despite infanticides, more male infants than female die in their first year.:wink:http://w3.unece.org/pxweb/dialog/Saveshow.asp?lang=1

Mother nature also aborts far more males than females - bitch!

Once you get to about 21, life expectancy differences between the sexes are only about 2 years. Equalisation of pension ages, should remedy that!
 
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Kaurik

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http://w3.unece.org/pxweb/dialog/Saveshow.asp?lang=1[/URL]

Mother nature also aborts far more males than females - bitch!

Once you get to about 21, life expectancy differences between the sexes are only about 2 years. Equalisation of pension ages, should remedy that!

I'm getting an error when clicking on that link. I didn't know that more males don't make it to birth and also die within the first year. Would like to see what it says in that link.
 

pcghabsy

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In truly rural India, aren't women the ones who do the work while their fathers/husbands sit on the string cot and smoke? That is what I always saw. Even your example is middle-class.

Nope. It's the fathers/husbands who are mostly farmers. Of course, there are exceptions, but the women are almost always responsible for taking care of the house. There's actually a phrase in the Gita which relates to this. So it's been a deeply cultural and even religious tradition.

I am not sure what you saw, but I have lived in India all my life and worked in villages too.

My example is definitely not middle-class! Today, in urban India, the middle-class is generally much more open-minded. Girls are pursuing their own careers, the attitude of "get married and do housework" is slowly disappearing.

You have to realize that most of India is very poor. The middle class, as we call it, is only existent in the big cities.
 

Drifterwood

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I don't think that there should be any presumption from men that they have a right to a wife and to breed. Nor vice versa for that matter.

In China under the single child policy, many girls were simply not registered rather than aborted.
 

B_crackoff

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I'm getting an error when clicking on that link. I didn't know that more males don't make it to birth and also die within the first year. Would like to see what it says in that link.

I've got some shocking information that gender facists don't want you to know at the end:wink:

I'm afraid that you will have to sort the boxes out yourself - hold down control & highlight boys & girls, any countries, & any years you wish to view.

Statistical Database -- United Nations Economic Commission for Europe

The primary sex ratio (number of males concieved compared to girls) is difficult to estimate exactly, for obvious reasons, believed to be exceptionally high in the first few months, reducing to about 125/100 generally accepted (with a minimum figure of 110/100 pre birth - i.e far more males are stillborn).

This is because xy sperm are more competitively advantaged in the uterus. However, what happens in the uterus, & during labour is far more likely to abort & physically & mentally impair males (infant boys are born with 33% more physical defects.

Brian the Writer Sex Ratios - Primary and Secondary
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306007/pdf/westjmed00174-0118.pdf
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2060704

What these horrific political feminists fail to mention, when attacking gender selective abortion, is that all abortions in general fall more heavily on male fetuses, because there are far more of them, & there are 31 abortions for every 100 births.

Global Abortion Rates — Infoplease.com


http://www.wikigender.org/index.php/wikigender.org:Variables_Sex_Ratio

Abortions statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Health

Global Health Council - Russia Tackles Its High Abortion Rate

All abortion is therefore more of a male issue than a female issue, so why do we not hear ANY of the above facts. I'd advise anyone listening to gender related hyperbole & crap from the media to do their own investigations & wonder for themselves - WHY is one side portraying itself as a victim in all areas without any rebuttal? It's all so divisive & politically motivated.

The effect of abortion on gender at birth can even be seen in the US & UK, where 3% more girls than boys are now delivered live.

A better question to posit is "Does sex selective abortion cancel out the random abortion effect?".

None of the facts I've mentioned here would ever be mentioned in the mainstream media, eh?:rolleyes:
 
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Phil Ayesho

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The problem is that selective abortion of female children, prevalent in both India and China, is not really an exercise of choice.

In both countries the decision is driven by societal and political pressures that place women between a rock and a hard place.

In India, a daughter is a tremendous financial burden, as the daughters family is expected to pay an enormous amount of money as dowery when the girl is married... as well as pay for an elaborate wedding that may exceed the families yearly income.

In China, the one child policy, coupled with a cultural preference for sons over daughters, has resulted in women being pressured by boyfriends or husbands to abort any female pregnancies... This most often takes the form of a woman being faced with the option of aborting her child, or abandoning it, or, having her boyfriend or husband abandon her.


These are hardly issues of genuine choice.


Of course, perhaps having both of these nations experience a dramatic shortage of available females... a future in which a lot of unattached men must compete aggressively for the few women, may ultimately transform the cultural value they place upon women... I could see the dowery situation in India reversing, as brides become a rare commodity...

but then, is the further commodification of women in these societies a real solution?

Personally, while I feel the selective abortion practice is wrong... I do not think there is any way to prevent it.
I do feel that these countries should put forth a strong effort to alter their cultural preferences for males... to outlaw dowery, or to change the Chinese people's superstitious attachment to sons...

As in any behavior we don't really like.... the real solution is to get people to stop Wanting it, rather than making it criminal.

Education, and fashion would do more to curb this than government bans or edicts.
 

Phil Ayesho

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What these horrific political feminists fail to mention, when attacking gender selective abortion, is that all abortions in general fall more heavily on male fetuses, because there are far more of them, & there are 31 abortions for every 100 births.

Wow... you sure are the gender fascist calling the kettle black...

Your statistics and your interpretation of them are skewed.

Yes there are more male conceptions than female. And, in fact, More males born than females.
However, you neglect to mention that this zygotic advantage disappears and is actually reversed by the fact that more young men die than women... by age 25 their numbers are approximately equal, and by age 30 there are more women than men.

This is because of the effect of testosterone on male behavior makes engage in more risk taking behavior than females... and suffer higher attrition.
Thus, the higher ratio of boys to girls is an evolutionary offset to the higher attrition that males suffer.


And the point is not that the natural, un-meddled with ratio of boys to girls is skewed... its that human Un-Natural selection is dramatically WORSE... even more out of balance with what millions of years of evolution has arranged to work pretty well... And that it reflects a genuine and abiding bias against females in the cultures in which it occurs.


Also... it is estimated that, even without human induced abortion or infanticide... which has gone on in every culture thru all human history... that as much as one third of ALL conceptions spontaneously abort, often without the woman even being aware that she had conceived.