The Public Option is very much ALIVE.

MercyfulFate

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:biggrin1::wink:

It involves a top-to-bottom realignment of personal priorities, including some real calibration of how much job satisfaction is really worth, because you will not have the same job security nor the same earnings potential working for an individual rather than a corporate entity. The trade-offs can be harrowing.

Working for an individual is also not so great for linear thinkers or nine-to-fivers (not saying you're either). It's not just thinking out of the box: you've gotta be flexible enough to want to create whole new boxes on a regular basis. This is much easier on creative types than, say, accountants. And you've gotta be willing to take some strange calls at strange times; type-A personalities always have issues with limits, so if you don't set them immediately and reinforce them frequently, you'll wonder where your life disappeared to :cool:

I'm as anti-accountants as they come. Brings back nightmares of Managerial Accounting.

I've never really identified as a Type A or B actually, probably more a mixture of both. Frankly I'd rather time constraints not exist as I hate being rushed.

However taking a 2am phonecall to work could always be an issue, haha.
 

wispandex_bulge

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Why should the young and healthy have to subsidize the health care of others? Same question could be raised by the childless about the eduction of the children of others. It's in all of our best interests to provide a minimal amount to each other through our taxes. Otherwise, we should go back to the caves.

The effect of education on society is undeniable, the effect of healthcare is debatable. They truly are on different levels.
 

wispandex_bulge

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This is not a question of class warfare (though the fact that you see it that way speaks volumes). And the imperialist wars of conquest which were poorly planned have no bearing on a domestic crisis that's been looming for many many years. What's it with you and all this war talk?
This is just a fair analysis of the arguments that tend to be put forth. Also the connection I establish is not between the wars and healthcare: thats you stuck on teh word "war". What I am saying si that hastily made decisions often turn out badly.


Your patronizing condolences while accusing me of furthering a "victim mentality" shows that you don't know me at all. You're a pathetic shit.
Apart from the name calling, you furhter show your victim "you dont know me" attitude. Also, only time will tell whether the system you so desire will actually help you.

Your skills at math equal your ability to reason in other areas, sadly. Federal Poverty Level for an individual is currently $10,830. In 2008 I earned a shade under 120% of FPL. Multiply that by six and you'll find that you're still way shy of six figures and still anchored firmly in the middle class, but comfortable, for sure.
You are correct, I was using the wrong figure.

The fact that you're trying to insinuate that poor planning on my part caused my finances to implode once health limitations prevented me from earning my accustomed livelihood is naive and abhorrent.
Victim

You have a terrible awakening due to you one day. It couldn't happen to a more deserving person.
Emotional backlash.

That's because you have no comprehension of what I have now. Your entire response to my post shows how truly little you understand about anything. But between questioning my integrity and your other baseless accusations and presumptions, you've really shown how incapable of growth and adaptation in your own life.
Victim spouting emotional backlash.
 

wispandex_bulge

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I've gotta admit, I'm not quite as up on the opt-out clause as I should be. But I think that any state that opts out of the public option while not affording its citizens reasonable choices in some other fashion will quickly be drained of inhabitants: who the fuck would want to live in such a hell-hole?

How can you be up on anything...the current bill thats being tossed aroudn is supposedly around 1500 pages. That alone worries me because the only reason you need that much paperwork is if you want to put in emergency clauses to get out of agreements if deals go sour, or to include "pork".
 

atlas23

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We can increase competition by allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines. We can subisize insurance for lower income people so that they are protected from catastrophic illness. People with pre-existing conditions should be covered, but they will probalby have to pay more, because in a free market insurance companies must have the ability to attract customers with lower prices, and for risk actuaries, healthy people are more attractive customers. If we control prices so that those that are unhealthy and those that are healthy must pay the same amount (there are states that mandate this), insurance premiums become unpalatable for most.

Finally, a moer thorough and indepth analysis of the money flow and value flow of the healthcare industry might provide some further insight into ways to slow and in some cases reverse the trend in healthcare spending. After all, Americans do not just pay more for health care in SPITE of our health issues, we often pay more BECAUSE of our health issues. Only a larger change in attitudes toward fitness and nutrition can change that trend.

I'm not really inmerse in the insurance and healthcare world but I have some doubts about your comment. First, don't insurance companies already compete accross state lines? It might be under a different name but it is still the same company. Who will pay the subsidy for lower income people? the middle class? Don't they have a need for healthcare as well? Can the middle class afford healthcare at this present time? People with pre-existing conditions are covered right now, they just can't afford to pay those ever increasing premiums. If there is a public option, insurance companies will have more customers because everyone will need insurance. I think there is uncontrolled and unstoppable fraud going on in the medicare, it will be a shame to see that expanding ta a greater extent with a public option. However, I do think and believe that healthcare is the greatest issue that this country has at this point time and that something has to be done. Maybe the public option is not the best option, but at least so far, is the one that makes the most sense from all.
 

wispandex_bulge

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...but we're still light-years away from anything that enlightened.

AH! Now theres an idea I can work with. I completely agree with you. To have everyone get the same healthcare, to have everyone cared for to the same degree, to have everyone as productive as they can possibly be...they are all great ideas. It would be great to live in a society like that. The truth is, such a society woudl require a HUGE change in attitude, and if there is one thing I am more certain of that any other argument of made here, it is that you CANNOT legislate attitude change. If you try, you end up alienating or disenfranchising more people than you assuage. I dont want the system to change because its working for me, and I see it working for more than just the plurality of americans, I see it working for a solid majority and could work even better with just a few minor tweaks as opposed to this monstrous overhaul.
 
D

deleted15807

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Truly classic. At least we must be winning the argument if you have resorted to blatant name calling.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be exhibiting dog like or pack like behavior. I do admire dogs while I don't much admire the subject so I retract the dog comment.
 
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Bbucko

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This is just a fair analysis of the arguments that tend to be put forth. Also the connection I establish is not between the wars and healthcare: thats you stuck on teh word "war". What I am saying si that hastily made decisions often turn out badly.


Apart from the name calling, you furhter show your victim "you dont know me" attitude. Also, only time will tell whether the system you so desire will actually help you.

You are correct, I was using the wrong figure.

Victim

Emotional backlash.

Victim spouting emotional backlash.

This is the response that got you on my ignore list: enjoy oblivion, I'm through playing.
 

midlifebear

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I thought I would relay something that has been transpiring at the company am associated with over the past two months.

Basically, our employees have a health care plan (a blue one) and get 401K matched retirement benefits.

The board, accounting and legal departments have met to best position the company in light of a possible government option. Based on what has been reported, what the cost, employer penalty and predicted increases in private insurance will amount to, they are trying to figure out the best position to be in. Basically, trying to figure out what the bottom line may look like.

Interestingly, with what they have hatched, the solution is fairly elegant: however, the availability of a public option ultimately hurts the employees, and protects corporate profits.

1.) All employees except management will not have their annual contracts renewed, HOWEVER, each of those employees will be given the opportunity to keep their job as a PRIVATE CONTRACTOR. They will be given a 20% per hour raise with their contracts.

2.) Making them private contractors does a number of things: a) removes some level of liability from the company in case of sexual harassment, etc. This will result in our liability insurance premiums to decrease by over 30%. b) it eliminates the employer's responsibility to pay payroll taxes and FICA. The employees, as private contractors, will be responsible c) the retirement program will be discontinued, however private contractors who establish retirement 401K (equivalents) will get a yearly bonus equivalent to around 50% of the former match amount. d) as private contractors, all employees become "at will," meaning no cause is necessary to release them, as long as their contracts are fulfilled. e) their health benefits will cease, and they will be able to purchase from the government option or "exchange." f) services such as parking, etc will remain free, but if necessary parking permits will be implemented and can be purchased by the private contractors. g) all private contractors will be subject to confidentiality agreements, and the company can litigate against them in case of intellectual or corporate theft. h) the company will not be subject to government penalties due to not providing health care, as they will have very few actual "employees" and those employees will maintain their current health care plan. As far as the "higher ups" know, there will be no way to regulate these private contractors, if they don't want insurance, they pay the penalty out of their own pockets.

3.) The estimated cost savings of this implementation runs around +10-20% for the company, on our personnel expenses (not overall profit margin, that number is closer to 4%).

4.) Some raised the issue of losing employees, however, the job situation in Michigan is so terrible right now, this was viewed as an unlikely real problem.

In the end, with the availability of the public option, the company will save some money. The employees will be dumped on the public option, and will have to pay for it out of their own pockets. In addition, their retirement will take a big hit. Also, almost every employee will need an accountant to handle their taxes from now on, as they each essentially will be running a "one man company."

This plan would, unfortunately, result in more take-home pay, but offset by increased "out of pocket expenses", a likely lower level of benefits, and reduced retirement income. The only upside is increased profit for the company.

I was wondering why the upper management was so excited about the public option.

As a side note, the nature of my position would not cause the changes to affect my situation, I'm not management but I am an "exempt" employee class. There are just a few of us, so we weren't even discussed.

So, in the end, corporations will get higher profits and screw employees, and in a state like Michigan, they can get away with it easily.

Well, welcome to the 21st Century. You'll get no sympathy from me. Even the fabulous Republican government, starting with Reagan, then Bush the Elder, on through those scintillating Bush the Younger years made it a policy change to hire "contractors" in many areas of government where people previously had a golden job for life. The majority of technical writers who were once full-time employees for the Veterans Hospital network are a good example. Only the "managers" of various divisions were allowed to keep their jobs without having to re-apply each year for the same job they had held for 20 years. I know many -- as in more toes and fingers -- of tech writers who must now bid for work that would have normally flowed to them. The efficiency gained in saving money hasn't translated into keeping the quality of the documentation that supports the medical informatics software used by the Vet Hospitals, simply because a writer who picks up where another left off often has a steep and almost impossible learning curve. As a result, they tend to just gather up the notes of the programmers and arranged them so they can be accessed by a word search engine.

The same thing that has happened to your company is "the way of the future." The last corporate job I held was one where I was guaranteed employment (for the time being), but I had to renegotiate new annual contracts with all of the staff in my department.

And poor you. You have to sign a confidentiality clause to keep your job? Where the Hell have you been? Under a rock? Confidentiality agreements have been part and parcel in the real world for more than a couple of centuries. The only exceptions I can think of are some positions one gets through the Teamsters.

You should be lucky Michigan is not a "right to work" State. Sounds good, but what it means is that an employer has the right to fire without cause any and all employees (except for those merit employees working for City and State governments).

Boo Hoo. Sorry to hear you're golden nest of employment is now following the corporate crowd. There are very few positions, managerial or otherwise, where you're going to receive employment and fabu benefits for life. Of course, the idea was that such measures would keep 'Mericuh "lean and mean" ready to fight and succeed in the global economy. Sadly, it hasn't worked.

A public health option is going to be more and more important as the majority of those who have lost their jobs and cannot find adequate employment to keep their families afloat. And of all the States in deep shit, Michigan is right at the front of line. Toyotas and Hondas are still out selling GMC and Chrysler products almost 3 to 1, despite the new corporate makeovers to make the 'Mericuhn public think that a Chevy in the driveway is really what we all want. We don't.

I don't wish anyone, even the famous cranky farts with loose bits for brains who post alarmist topics to the political forum, any misfortune or job loss. But get used to the idea that you, if you have an advanced degree of some kind, will have to re-apply for your job every year and work under a skimpy contract that doesn't protect you but definitely protects your employer. C'est la vie. Adios. Ciao (or Chau if you speak Spanish).

And get ready to pay a lot more in taxes than you currently are accustomed. Somebody has to pay for Bush's wars still smoldering in Afganistan and Iraq.

As for having to pay your taxes using 1099 forms? Hah! You now have more freedom to do what you want. You're now self-employed. Enjoy the rewards those of us who have been self-employed or owned our own businesses for years in this wonderful country. Hint: start saving all of your gas and transportation receipts to get to and from work. If you make enough money you can itemize them as a deduction.

Bon chance, tweety. It's a brave new world out there and those who can't adapt will find them selves forced to live in card board boxes in the back alleys of Santa Monica or some other warmer city. And watch out, most of that territory is already marked and occupied until the current resident of the cardboard box dies. Get in line just in case.

Matching 401K benefits? That's a major laugh for those of us who have cashed in our chips and carved out a better life outside the USA. To paraphrase the great Dear Abby (RIP), there's a thing called coffee. Learn to smell it and start drinking large quantities of it. Life may look rosy for you now, but there's a pot percolating not too far in your future, so be ready to wake up and smell it. You'll probably find a public health option a good idea and something to be thankful for in a few years. :smile:
 
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Ericsson1228d

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There is also the situation of private contract in some states which have encountered this. Some states, like New York, use a duck test to determine who is an employee and who is a contractor and they do not permit employers to dump employees into private contract status unless they truly qualify as one. This happened due to a change in employment law in New York back in the 80s and it caused companies to dump employees en masse. The state quickly halted it and forced most to be hired back as true employees. The reason was simple. The state was losing payroll taxes and income taxes.

Your company may need to come up with a Plan B.

That may have worked in NY, but one of the lawyers explained the federal rules on this. Basically, in determining employment status (in a federal sense), it can only be done by the IRS, because its about income and federal taxes. However, there was a ruling in the 70s (1978 I think he said) that expressly forbid the IRS from using there data to determine employee vs. independent contractor status. He also mentioned that Hillary's Health Care plan essentially contained a provision to let the IRS decide, vis a vis health care obligations and penalties to employers. However, since the IRS can't use their records to do this, it would basically emasculate the IRS from actually doing it. His assessment was that Hillary's plan would have fallen apart in the courts re: independent contractors, and he hasn't seen anything mentioned about this "loophole" yet in the Reid bill.
 

Ericsson1228d

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Well, welcome to the 21st Century. You'll get no sympathy from me.

Boo Hoo. Sorry to hear you're golden nest of employment is now following the corporate crowd. There are very few positions, managerial or otherwise, where you're going to receive employment and fabu benefits for life. Of course, the idea was that such measures would keep 'Mericuh "lean and mean" ready to fight and succeed in the global economy. Sadly, it hasn't worked.

You missed part of my post. My position won't be affected by the changes. I keep my health care and retirement, as it is planned now. Not that it means it will stay that way forever, but I'm in a position where I could find work elsewhere, if it got bad (out of Michigan).

The point is that this "great humanitarian effort" may, in fact, leave people far worse off than they were before.

Don't feel bad for me. I'll be just fine.
 
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The effect of education on society is undeniable, the effect of healthcare is debatable. They truly are on different levels.

I agree they are on different levels: health care is much more important. It doesn't matter what kind of education you get if you're dead, or so sick you can't put it to use.

Or are you saying that the excess masses should just go die somewhere?
 

D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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If Joe Lieberman sabotages healthcare reform by joining in on a republican-only fillibuster, the democratic leadership needs to strip this fucker of any Committee positions he holds.

I mean, play hardball and take him down.

When Lieberman ran as an "independent" (because he couldn't win the democratic primary in Conn.) he continued to caucus with the dems and the dems allowed him to retain his chairmanship on the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. He's on the Committee on Armed Services too (the various committees in congress are a mark of status and seniority - and one of the few real positions congressman are willing to fight for).


Lieberman will join filibuster of public option - War Room - Salon.com
 

B_VinylBoy

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If Joe Lieberman sabotages healthcare reform by joining in on a republican-only fillibuster, the democratic leadership needs to strip this fucker of any Committee positions he holds.

I mean, play hardball and take him down.

When Lieberman ran as an "independent" (because he couldn't win the democratic primary in Conn.) he continued to caucus with the dems and the dems allowed him to retain his chairmanship on the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. He's on the Committee on Armed Services too (the various committees in congress are a mark of status and seniority - and one of the few real positions congressman are willing to fight for).


Lieberman will join filibuster of public option - War Room - Salon.com

It's pretty obvious why Lieberman is doing this. The state he represents is home to some of the major health insurance giants, such as Aetna, and he's received huge sums of money from them to cater to their interests. If he's willing to shun not only the Democrats, but the majority of Americans that actually want a public option, then it would show just how vile this individual really is.

The things some people do for money.
 

Trinity

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If Joe Lieberman sabotages healthcare reform by joining in on a republican-only fillibuster, the democratic leadership needs to strip this fucker of any Committee positions he holds.

I mean, play hardball and take him down.

When Lieberman ran as an "independent" (because he couldn't win the democratic primary in Conn.) he continued to caucus with the dems and the dems allowed him to retain his chairmanship on the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. He's on the Committee on Armed Services too (the various committees in congress are a mark of status and seniority - and one of the few real positions congressman are willing to fight for).


Lieberman will join filibuster of public option - War Room - Salon.com

What public option is Reid saying will be in the Senate Bill he has crafted together?

The HELP Committee "options" were not the robust "Public Option" propronents of government run healthcare wanted:

The Baucus Bill did not have a "public option" because two different kinds were voted down.

So exactly what "Public Option" specifically must Lieberman (and other Centrists) be taken down for?