The question of if being gay is a choice

[westy30004]

Marley,

Oddly enough what you say is very true and can sometimes vary from church to church. My sister-in-law and her partner have come to our church on several occassions and are welcomed with open arms. I am sure a lot of it is other member's love for our family. One of the other deacons commented he thought the could "change" her partner in his younger days (he was joking, of course). But I know of churches who take a more harsh (and dare I say hateful) stand on homosexuals. I have spoke to our youth minister about this and he shared this tidbit of wisdom. The reason many Christians are so vocal against homosexuals is due to their own struggles. Everyone struggles. Since The Bible cites homosexuallity as a sin, some
Christians want to characterize it as a worse sin than theirs. Homosexuals are an easy target. When many of them (other Christians) struggle with sins that could destroy their family (as you cited of the adulterer in your earlier post). I have shared this (often candidly) with other South Georgia Christian men, and they are often ashamed when I point out some of their obvious short comings in God's eyes. Now don't beat me up, I am just trying to give y'all some insight to some zealots you may meet sometime.

Yurkon....partially agree with your religon comment....I have my complaints about organized religon, also.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

"born that way".. is a political argument.

In much the same sense that alcoholism is called a "disease".

The argument is that "i can't help the way I am and so you can not lesgislate against my condition and must understand and be sympathetic".

However, there is a weakness to the political argument of being born a certain way...
for alcoholism:
Yes, you can be born with a predilection for substance abuse and easily fall prey to addiction.

That however does not negate the personal responsibility of recognizing you have this genetic tendency and simply not indulging in addictive substances.



Now the religious make the same argument against homosexuality... that even if you were born that way, indulging that desire is sinful and should be avoided.



But to me... all political arguments for or against homosexuality are ridiculous.


WHo cares? Let's say, for arguments sake, that for 5% of homosexuals... its purely a lifestyle choice?

SO WHAT?

What possible difference does it make?


THe argument is that it simply does not matter why..... ITs a private matter between consenting adults and no government, and no religious organization has the slightest right to so much as voice an opinion.


All of this to and fro is about nothing but the fact that some groups of people insist on MEDDLING in the lives of others... of dictating personal matters...


The argument should not be "I can't help it I was born this way"...

It should be " Who the fuck are you to have an opinion on my sex life?"

 

[B_Monster]

Finally a voice of reason.

"born that way".. is a political argument.

In much the same sense that alcoholism is called a "disease".

The argument is that "i can't help the way I am and so you can not lesgislate against my condition and must understand and be sympathetic".

However, there is a weakness to the political argument of being born a certain way...
for alcoholism:
Yes, you can be born with a predilection for substance abuse and easily fall prey to addiction.

That however does not negate the personal responsibility of recognizing you have this genetic tendency and simply not indulging in addictive substances.



Now the religious make the same argument against homosexuality... that even if you were born that way, indulging that desire is sinful and should be avoided.



But to me... all political arguments for or against homosexuality are ridiculous.


WHo cares? Let's say, for arguments sake, that for 5% of homosexuals... its purely a lifestyle choice?

SO WHAT?

What possible difference does it make?


THe argument is that it simply does not matter why..... ITs a private matter between consenting adults and no government, and no religious organization has the slightest right to so much as voice an opinion.


All of this to and fro is about nothing but the fact that some groups of people insist on MEDDLING in the lives of others... of dictating personal matters...


The argument should not be "I can't help it I was born this way"...

It should be " Who the fuck are you to have an opinion on my sex life?"

 

[yurkon]

though you made some good points, certainly you could agree that you're labeling all christians when it's simply not the case that each and every one is as judgmental as you let on. if so, how would you explain my best friends who are christian and never lift a finger against my sexuality

Oooooo. I don't mean all of them, but I do mean a lot of them. Also, I am one! Just like them. No reason in the world to be any other way. I wish more people spent more time questioning what is said in church and read the bible for themselves and they'd understand so much more.

Generally, that's my problem with the Catholic church. They teach a small portion of the bible and that's it. If they chose to read, they would have a lot of questions about how it's run. The leaders back in the day were about a power and land grab, in America they are trying to regain lost ground.

My church sound similar to yours and your perspective. Be gay, but don't act on it. He went on to say we are all sinners, but we can't have people openly sinning. We don't embrace the outwardly gay, just like we wouldn't embrace someone outwardly drunk here.

I don't agree with that. It's like he equated alcoholism with being gay. He did say both are urges that you don't have to indulge and that's true. Then he went on to say they won't embrace extra-marital (sp) affairs.

So he kinda saved it. I would have left out the alcohol and stayed with the sex outside of marriage is harmful comparison.

FYI, I've enjoyed your posts this evening. Guess I'm not one of the lurker people, but I'll work on it.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Oooooo. I don't mean all of them, but I do mean a lot of them. Also, I am one! Just like them. No reason in the world to be any other way. I wish more people spent more time questioning what is said in church and read the bible for themselves and they'd understand so much more.

Generally, that's my problem with the Catholic church. They teach a small portion of the bible and that's it. If they chose to read, they would have a lot of questions about how it's run. The leaders back in the day were about a power and land grab, in America they are trying to regain lost ground.

My church sound similar to yours and your perspective. Be gay, but don't act on it. He went on to say we are all sinners, but we can't have people openly sinning. We don't embrace the outwardly gay, just like we wouldn't embrace someone outwardly drunk here.

I don't agree with that. It's like he equated alcoholism with being gay. He did say both are urges that you don't have to indulge and that's true. Then he went on to say they won't embrace extra-marital (sp) affairs.

So he kinda saved it. I would have left out the alcohol and stayed with the sex outside of marriage is harmful comparison.

FYI, I've enjoyed your posts this evening. Guess I'm not one of the lurker people, but I'll work on it.

no i appreciate the discussion and especially that you haven't called me any names (yet:wink. one thing you're gonna wanna do is not generalize people cuz some members fly overhead like hawks and as soon as they see statements that typecast people they swoop down and pry your flesh from your skin, savoring the very taste of their self-righteousness. i've seen firsthand how using the wrong wording can take the best intentions and turn it into a mud-slinging fest

 

[yurkon]

no i appreciate the discussion and especially that you haven't called me any names (yet:wink. one thing you're gonna wanna do is not generalize people cuz some members fly overhead like hawks and as soon as they see statements that typecast people they swoop down and pry your flesh from your skin, savoring the very taste of their self-righteousness. i've seen firsthand how using the wrong wording can take the best intentions and turn it into a mud-slinging fest

I try to be careful. I read a tread that talked about stereo types that got ugly.

You nailed with generalizing people. I seen that happen.

There's exceptions to every group and not necessarily just a small number either. What I get a kick out of is Americans can be brutal to each other endlessly. Then if someone says something against Americans or America, we freak. Maybe our in-fighting is preparation for all other encounters.

I would like to see a period in my life where America isn't being the world police or imposing our way of living on another nation. I think we could use a break. We piss off people all over the world and are astonished that most of the world either does care about us or is flat out against us.


So much for my workout tonight!

 

[marleyisalegend]

I try to be careful. I read a tread that talked about stereo types that got ugly.

You nailed with generalizing people. I seen that happen.

There's exceptions to every group and not necessarily just a small number either. What I get a kick out of is Americans can be brutal to each other endlessly. Then if someone says something against Americans or America, we freak. Maybe our in-fighting is preparation for all other encounters.

I would like to see a period in my life where America isn't being the world police or imposing our way of living on another nation. I think we could use a break. We piss off people all over the world and are astonished that most of the world either does care about us or is flat out against us.


So much for my workout tonight!

AMEN. america in general to me atleast seems to be full of hypocrites who love pointing fingers and lash out when fingers are pointed back

 

[epress]

it varies from person to person. i've certainly met some christians who are more welcoming to homosexuals than other gay people. you can't deny that there's certainly cattiness in the gay community sometimes and definitely on this site

Amen to that! I know a lot of gay people and regularly do volunteer work at the glbt community center, so I come into contact with them a lot on a daily basis. I used to hangout exclusively with gay males for most of my late-teen thru adult life. But eventually I just could not take all their bitchiness and cattiness any longer! I've found that gay males can be very vicious and cruel, and VERY intolerant. Now, I mostly spend all my leisure time just with my close, wonderful, lesbian friends and a few straight guy friends.

By the way, I love your idea about Ignoring that person! I just did it now too.

 

[epress]

Oooooo. I don't mean all of them, but I do mean a lot of them. Also, I am one! Just like them. No reason in the world to be any other way. I wish more people spent more time questioning what is said in church and read the bible for themselves and they'd understand so much more.

Generally, that's my problem with the Catholic church. They teach a small portion of the bible and that's it. If they chose to read, they would have a lot of questions about how it's run. The leaders back in the day were about a power and land grab, in America they are trying to regain lost ground.

My church sound similar to yours and your perspective. Be gay, but don't act on it. He went on to say we are all sinners, but we can't have people openly sinning. We don't embrace the outwardly gay, just like we wouldn't embrace someone outwardly drunk here.

I don't agree with that. It's like he equated alcoholism with being gay. He did say both are urges that you don't have to indulge and that's true. Then he went on to say they won't embrace extra-marital (sp) affairs.

So he kinda saved it. I would have left out the alcohol and stayed with the sex outside of marriage is harmful comparison.

FYI, I've enjoyed your posts this evening. Guess I'm not one of the lurker people, but I'll work on it.

My issue is with Evangelical/Fundamentalist and Baptist groups. I was born and raised in a large family that belongs to either Evangelical or Baptist churches. Those churches are the most intolerant, hypocritical, and corrupt breeding grounds for hate and violence, which originates from the religion itself. I won't go into all their filthy beliefs, but they are very threatening to liberty and equality.

These so-called "Bible-believing" churches are the worst! They are the ones responsible for manipulating the Scriptures to justify their own vile agendas. They tarnish the name "Christian" with their arrogance by falsely claiming that they alone are the true Christians who are Saved and that everyone else will burn in Hell, especially gays! The pastor at our church would rage on and on against homosexuals, pro-choice liberals, other religions, etc. He was very well-respected in the church... until it was proven that he had extramarital affairs with three women at the same time for more than ten years! The new pastor preaches all the same hate. I wonder what skeletons are hiding in HIS closet! And there's a Baptist church in a nearby town where the pastor admitting to raping his daughters when they were children. It's sickening and disgraceful.

Note: I purposely did NOT say "Evangelicals" or "Baptists", the PEOPLE. My criticism is of those churches and beliefs. Also, no offense to any Evangelicals or Baptists who might be on this forum. If you're here, then obviously you're not the type of intolerant hypocrite that I am referring to. (And they would say that you're not a "true" Evangelical, Baptist, or Christian either!)

 

[marleyisalegend]

I've found that gay males can be very vicious and cruel, and VERY intolerant. By the way, I love your idea about Ignoring that person! I just did it now too.

AMEN!!! i'm glad somebody finally said it. gay people can be some of the meanest, illest-intention having spiteful people

 

[robbot]

Finally a voice of reason.

Of course Phil this makes perfect sense, if it were a perfect world.

However, without politicising rights regarding sexuality we (homosexuals, practising or not) would not have the freedom that we do enjoy today, and would still be being jailed or worse still executed for our identity. And lets face it, in many places this is still the case.

From my own experience, I can remember having sexual feelings and interest in men from age 7, but also felt a strong conflict as by then I was already conditioned by society that that was wrong (what I belived at the time, not what I believe now).

I am in a good position at the moment as am going through a process with a therapist to try and identify root causes for some of my behaviour, and my struggle with my sexuality is I believe integral to those behaviours.

I do know that my sexual pre-disposition is towards men, and that that was my natural instinct which I can recognise from a very early age. I can identify no events or experiences in my life which influenced that pre-disposition and therefore I can only conclude that I was in fact born this way.

I do have a choice whether or not to act on those feelings. I could keep them buried and have a relationship with a woman, and have a family and babies, and in fact I have tried, but it simply just didn't feel right. To the end that I feel not acting on those urges and desires would probably do me more harm than good.

Do I want to change. If you'd asked me when I was a teenager I would have said yes, however, if someone offered me the "hetero-pill" now I'd probably decline, as I like the way I am.

It's an interesting debate, but I do realy believe that we are born with a sexuality pre-disposition, which will always form the basis of that persons mental and physical attration to other people. However, sociological conditioning may prevent that person from fulfilling that pre-disposition for a number of years, and possibly permanently.

 

[robbot]

AMEN!!! i'm glad somebody finally said it. gay people can be some of the meanest, illest-intention having spiteful people

I agree, although I believe this is more to do about projecting their biggest fears and inadequacies, i.e it is a front, rather than truly what they believe.

 

[Hellboy0]

Amen to that! I know a lot of gay people and regularly do volunteer work at the glbt community center, so I come into contact with them a lot on a daily basis. I used to hangout exclusively with gay males for most of my late-teen thru adult life. But eventually I just could not take all their bitchiness and cattiness any longer! I've found that gay males can be very vicious and cruel, and VERY intolerant. Now, I mostly spend all my leisure time just with my close, wonderful, lesbian friends and a few straight guy friends.

By the way, I love your idea about Ignoring that person! I just did it now too.

Hmmm...I don't think I'm catty, nor am I that bitchy. You might wanna look at your statistical sample before making sweeping statements, epress. I could make the same assumptions about all Straight men from my experiences with the guys at my university: Redneck, intolerant, beer-swilling, loud-mouthed, opinionated, car-focused pricks. And as I continued into my professional life, they kept acting the same, though now these guys wore suits and changed their beer for martinis and scotch.

Since then, I've had the good fortune to meet and maintain great professional and personal relationships with all sorts of guys/gals, gay, bisexual, some transgender, straight... and they are nothing like the stereotypical dickheads you seem to have met or I been around.

 

[markohfuckinpolo]

I'm not much of a poster on here.. but I thought I'd read this thread.. wanted to leave a comment to say I completely agree with what you said on page one marley. But I had to wait til page 7. Interesting points made all round. Good read.

 

[220483]

IT'S not a choice. IF it was, in the 'hetero' world we live in, NO one would chose to be homosexual, for being it is a LOT harder... so, once again, NO. no one chooses to be what they are. IT'S ALL IN YOU!

 

[horneyoldguy]

It is not a choice. A 2000 study noted that the level of male hormones a fetus is exposed to in the womb can influence future sexual orientation. To read about the study go to CNN.com - Male hormone levels in womb may affect sexual orientation, study says - March 29, 2000

 

[sneakysexy]

No wonder your not very well like Marley :smile:

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[auncut10in]

Very interesting and thought provoking thread. I think if you just read the responses of the guys that are gay, you get a pretty accurate reading on what it is like to be gay. Pretty much every one of them are stating being gay is not a choice. And why would you only look at the gay responses? Because quite frankly a straight man has no real idea what it is like to be gay any more than he has any real idea what it is like to be a woman. He can see what they are like and can guess how it feels to be a woman, but he doesn't really have any idea how it feels to be a woman.

I also don't really know what it is like to be straight. I can guess what it would be like to be attracted to women, I can even pretend to be attracted to women. Most of my life I tried get that feeling. (I was married for 25 years) But quite honestly I really have no idea what it feels like to be attracted to a women.

So why would anyone ask a straight man if being gay is a choice or not? He really has no idea, but it is amusing to hear what he thinks is going on and some get closer to the truth than others. Clearly there are some straight guys on this site that have really thought about what it would be like to be gay. I applaud you for being willing to try and understand what it is like to be gay. It says a lot about your humanity.

Now as far as the whole choice in acting on being gay, I will start to consider being celibate as soon as I see a movement among straight guys to not act on being straight.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Hmmm...I don't think I'm catty, nor am I that bitchy. You might wanna look at your statistical sample before making sweeping statements, epress. I could make the same assumptions about all Straight men from my experiences with the guys at my university: Redneck, intolerant, beer-swilling, loud-mouthed, opinionated, car-focused pricks. And as I continued into my professional life, they kept acting the same, though now these guys wore suits and changed their beer for martinis and scotch.

Since then, I've had the good fortune to meet and maintain great professional and personal relationships with all sorts of guys/gals, gay, bisexual, some transgender, straight... and they are nothing like the stereotypical dickheads you seem to have met or I been around.

noone's saying ALL gay people are catty and bitchy but just read through some of these threads and you'll see that some definitely are

 

[marleyisalegend]

I'm not much of a poster on here.. but I thought I'd read this thread.. wanted to leave a comment to say I completely agree with what you said on page one marley. But I had to wait til page 7. Interesting points made all round. Good read.

i'm glad someone is looking at both sides and UNDERSTANDING ME. i didn't choose to be gay, but i was looking at it from the other side of the fence and can understand why some christians say it is,otherwise this entire thread would say "it's not a choice" which would be a boring discussion